Please note: This transcript has been automatically generated.

Kamala Harris: And what we need to do, and what we will do, and what we are doing is knowing then, “Okay, I got you.”

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: So, you’re trying to throw some obstacles in my way. Well, wh- look how high I can jump over them.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm.

Kamala Harris: And we will turn out the vote, and we will turn out the vote so big that we will be too big to rig.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Hey, y’all. It’s Brittany. I don’t know about y’all, but every time I get on the internet, I feel like the children were left behind. Like, I’m a little worried about the literacy crisis. Open the schools, okay? Somebody bring George W. over here. I got some things to say. ‘Cause it feels like reading comprehension, listening comprehension, the ability to have dialogue and not just listen to respond, but actually listen to understand, the ability to not engage in ad hominem attacks because you’re actually being quiet and learning from people who have some expertise, yeah, it feels like that is all a lost art.

It is particularly unp- uh, unpopular right now to be a thinking person, and yet that is precisely what authoritarianism wants from us. Those of you who’ve been here since the very beginning, four whole seasons ago, you know we named this podcast Undistracted because of what Toni Morrison taught us, because she taught us that the function of racism, and dare I say every ism, is to keep us from doing our work.

The function of sexism, homophobia, transphobia, Islamophobia, antisemitism, xenophobia, ableism, all of it, is to keep us distracted and from doing our work. And when we feed those beasts online and offline, we keep ourselves from being useful. We keep ourselves from being helpful. We keep ourselves from learning well enough to be wise enough to fight authoritarianism in all of its forms.

Because while these folks are consolidating media, are consolidating education, and pushing out propaganda left and right, and doing all of the things that wanna-be authoritarians do, we are over here fighting each, other ’cause we don’t know how to log off and get real. So yeah, let’s touch some grass, let’s stay undistracted, and let’s do our work.

Now is the time. This is Undistracted.

On the show today, we have the Kamala Devi Harris, former vice president of the United States of America. Plus, we’re joined for one more Untrending News of the Season with both of our group chat besties, Dr. Brittney Cooper and Dr. David Johns. Y’all, I am so excited about today’s conversation because we’ve got a returning guest who has been in rooms most of us will never see, but who always tells it to us straight.

She’s been a prosecutor, California’s attorney general, a United States senator, and the 49th vice president of these United States. Since the last time Vice President Kamala Devi Harris sat down with us here at Undistracted, she’s written the bestseller 107 Days, her behind-the-scenes account of that historic campaign, and she hasn’t slowed down one bit, out here organizing and lifting up leaders across the country as we head into the midterms.

She knows this table, and this table knows her. Madam Vice President, welcome back to Undistracted.

Kamala Harris: Thank you, Brittney. It’s so good to be with you. Thank you.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Thank you for coming. How you

Kamala Harris: doing? Wait, wait, can you just tell me how the boys are real quickly?

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: The boys are great, and I knew you were gonna ask ’cause every time I see you, you’re like, “Hi, how are the boys?”

Kamala Harris: Moses and Emmanuel. Uh-huh. And have they started school?

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: They have started school. They are having so much fun. The youngest one is still deciding if he likes people or not. But, you know, the oldest is, like, extremely joyful and way too friendly. So, they’re a good little, a good little odd couple there. Uh-huh.

And they have… But when he- but when the younger one sees the older one come in the room, he’s so excited. Oh. And that’s when he really lights up. Oh, that’s the best. So they’re doing so well. That’s the best. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, I’m glad to

Kamala Harris: hear that.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: I’m so glad that you’re here back at Undistracted for our s- fourth season finale.

Um, we start off every episode the same way. How are you doing today, in three words?

Kamala Harris: I am blessed

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: There it is.

Kamala Harris: Yeah.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: I am blessed. I love that. Yeah. That feels good. Yeah. That’s encouraging. Yeah. Okay, so that’s the question we ask all of our guests. Yeah. I also know that there’s a big question everybody’s asking you, but let’s get this out of the way.

I’m not gonna ask you if you’re running for president in 2028. I

Kamala Harris: haven’t decided yet. But let me just say this- Right … I don’t think ’28 matters if we don’t win ’26, and so that’s my focus. Yeah, that’s a word. That’s my focus. I, I have always believed you cannot focus out the thing, at the thing out there- Mm-hmm

’cause you may very well trip over the thing right here.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: There it is.

Kamala Harris: Right?

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: And so that’s, that’s where I’m focused, is- Yeah … ’26. And I’m gonna be traveling for the midterms, and we gotta get our folks out. We, you know, there’s so much cheating and scheming.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Oh, we’re gonna get into it. Okay, good. Trust me.

Let’s talk about it. We’re gonna get into all of it. Okay. Um, and I, you, like you said, you’re undecided. I really think you deserve the time to contemplate and think and pray and-

Kamala Harris: Yeah …

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: you know, meditate on this really large decision. But I am curious what you feel like you’d need to see from this country to believe- Mm

the time is right.

Kamala Harris: You know, that’s interesting, a very interesting question, ’cause the, the way I tend to think about it is what does our country want?

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm.

Kamala Harris: And what does our country need, and what does our country deserve? Mm-hmm. And most important, what do the people deserve? Mm-hmm. That’s how I tend to, to think of it, you know?

And so we could go ex- talk extensively about how I think about it in that regard, which is I think the people deserve to be in a country where hard work results in opportunity- Mm … for success, and not just getting by, but getting ahead. I believe that the people of our country deserve to live in a society where they are treated with dignity and respect.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm.

Kamala Harris: Um, that the people of our country deserve to be in a, in a place where their power is recognized. As I always say, the power of the people, that it is recognized, that it is- Mm-hmm … reinforced, that it is supported, not suppressed.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm-hmm.

Kamala Harris: Right? Mm-hmm. Um, that’s how I, I tend to think of it. And, um, and, and then what role can I play-

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah

Kamala Harris: in participating in what I believe the people deserve and, and what I believe the people want.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: You know?

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: I know there’s so much for you to think through there in this fight of our lives that we’re in right now. Yeah. But really when you emerged into, I think, national prominence for people, early in your tenure people were really struck by your fighting spirit.

I certainly was. Mm. And I will say it has very much been on display these last few months especially, okay? We, we’ve been clocking it.

Kamala Harris: I’m on my freedom tour.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Okay. I’m curious, who taught you how to fight? Like, not just who inspired you- Oh … but the mechanics of how to fight and win. Was it Howard? Was it California?

Was it your mom? Was it Maya, your sister? Was it the AKAs? Was there, like, a stroll battle to the death on the- … on the yard or something? Like, how did you really learn the mechanics of fighting and winning

Kamala Harris: All of the above

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah

Kamala Harris: But I mean, I had fights on the schoolyard.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Not sure how, oh my gosh.

Kamala Harris: In fact, I was just talking…

So, my best friend from kindergarten, Stacy Johnson.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Uh-huh.

Kamala Harris: I was just talking to her recently. Um, when we were in kindergarten, this boy was, was picking on her ’cause- Oh, Lord … what Stacy will tell you, she, when we were kids, she had a lisp.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Okay.

Kamala Harris: And he was picking on her. And

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: kids are cruel. Oh,

Kamala Harris: yes. And I defended her, and he and I got into a fight.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Was he bigger than you?

Kamala Harris: He was. And- But you didn’t care … my mother had to come and, and- Oh, it was that kind of fight, like my mother, they called my mother to come to the school. Oh my

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: gosh.

Kamala Harris: Oh, yes. Um-

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: So, you like, in some ways you taught yourself how to fight. It was these two hands right here.

Kamala Harris: Well, I, but I was…

But my mother, the family in which I was raised, the extended- Yeah … family in which I was raised, you know, taught us to stand up for ourselves. And, and I learned, and I, and I feel so very strongly, I hate bullies.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm-hmm.

Kamala Harris: Um, I, I just, I, it’s, it’s visceral in me. It’s, it probably is a weakness as much as it is a strength.

Hmm. But I cannot stand to see, um, people bully and try to demean other people. Mm-hmm. I just, it’s, there’s an instinct I have that I can’t really suppress, which is to, you know, see what I can do to, to, to protect and to-

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm-hmm …

Kamala Harris: stand up for, for folks. And, um-

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Why do you say that’s a weakness?

Kamala Harris: Well, I don’t know.

Because, you know, maybe it, it would be a safer way to, to live to not be that way. A little

Dr. Brittney Cooper: easier,

Kamala Harris: yeah. But it’s not… Yeah, but obviously that’s not the course of life that I chose.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: No, I don’t think it’s really in you.

Kamala Harris: It, it’s not. It’s, it just is not. Yeah. Not that I run for a, into a fight looking for a fight-

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah

Kamala Harris: but it’s kind of like, you know, if the fight comes to you, you gotta be ready.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: Yeah. You know?

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: And you gotta stay ready so you ain’t gotta get ready.

Kamala Harris: But that’s exactly right.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: That’s the one right

Kamala Harris: there. Like, ’cause there’s no time to get ready, you have to be

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: ready. Okay. Especially not right now. Yeah. I mean, in some ways, honestly you, you taught a lot of us how to fight.

You, you taught me how to fight in some ways. Mm-hmm. I, we first met when you had asked your Senate team to assemble a Zoom call for you to discuss criminal justice reform with some activists- Yeah … and some organizers and some researchers. Mm. There were about five or six of us on the call, and afterwards you’re like, “Well, everybody take my cell phone number.

Let’s stay in touch.” Mm-hmm. And we did, and you would call and ask for my opinion or my thoughts on things. Yeah. Sometimes I would call you and just volunteer- Yeah … my opinion, ’cause you know. Yeah. Because

Kamala Harris: I wanted it. It was welcome. Uh-huh.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: And I appreciate it, ’cause I don’t run from that stuff either. Um, and then I’ll never forget, we, we did some more work together, and it was June of 2020.

The pandemic is raging. Mm. Mm. And I am going through my own personal and professional crisis because the organization I co-founded- Mm … was breaking apart very publicly, and I stepped away because I disagreed with the direction we were moving in. And I’ll never forget, it was Saturday morning, and you called me.

Mm-hmm. And you said, you know, you told me you understood how I was feeling, that you had been there before, and you said, “Look, we need you in the fight. So s- like, you know, lick your wounds, but get up off the mat.” Do you remem- do you remember that? I,

Kamala Harris: I remember it really well. Do you remember calling me? I was sitting in my desk at our apartment in DC during the height of COVID.

Mm-hmm. I remember it ve- I remember, I remember it very well, yes.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: I just remember how grateful I was, not just that you had taken the time to think of me and to call me, but also to hear from somebody who clearly had been in some fights before, and won- Yeah … and lost-

Kamala Harris: Yeah …

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: and had lots of experiences in between- Mm-hmm

reminding me that there is a forward to move toward.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: That’s

Kamala Harris: right.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: That’s right. And, and, and that you can’t… You know, when you, when you l- live a life of purpose-

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm-hmm

Kamala Harris: There are gonna be those moments-

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm …

Kamala Harris: right? Where a- at the very least you experience in- incredible disappointment, if not pain.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: Right? And especially when you really care about things. I re- Mm-hmm … I think it, it maybe it would be a, a, a lot easier, at least less painful, if you didn’t care.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah. That’s right.

Kamala Harris: But when you live a life where your fight is motivated by the things you care for, the people you care for-

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm-hmm …

Kamala Harris: you go through those, those times.

And it’s, it’s important to remember that it is actually part of the nature of it all. Mm-hmm. That you will have those experiences, hopefully infrequently.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yes.

Kamala Harris: But it’s not a reason to l- to leave the field.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: Yeah. And, and, and, and, and you can’t let those moments defeat your spirit.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: Right? Yeah. If there’s a, if there are teaching moments from, from it- Mm-hmm

one should learn.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm-hmm.

Kamala Harris: But don’t let it defeat your spirit when you live a life of purpose. Yeah.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Right? Yeah. I, I remember you saying so much of that to me and I was like, “Okay, okay. I’ma do it.” “I’ma do it.” But I know that, I know that that kind of outreach, that kind of leadership and mentorship is really important to you.

Mm-hmm. Um, and that you do that with a lot of people. I really think folks are trying to find their fighters right now. Um- Yeah … I know you’re talking to a lot of people. People are frustrated by leaders they feel like are pretending that the house isn’t on fire. Yeah. Folks who are playing an old game by old rules that have clearly been thrown out by the opposition.

So when you pick up the phone on Saturday mornings these days to call leaders and candidates- Yeah … and fighters for this moment, what are, what are you telling them? How are you telling them to fight?

Kamala Harris: Well, a lot of the people that I’ve been advising, um, in the last year, and certainly in the last several months as we are in election season- Mm-hmm

are, are elected people.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm-hmm.

Kamala Harris: And, or people who are seeking elected office in campaigns. And part of what I am, um, reminding them of is i- actually what we just talked about. Don’t… You gotta, you know, you gotta stay focused on why you are doing this.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm.

Kamala Harris: And don’t let- The people who wanna d- throw you off course distract you.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm.

Kamala Harris: Right?

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm-hmm.

Kamala Harris: Um, I, I think that in politics it is, it is likely sometimes that there are some people who are in it because they’re more interested in looking in the mirror than they are looking at the people.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm-hmm.

Kamala Harris: But for the those people who are in it because they’re looking at the people, stay focused on that.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: Like, don’t be distracted. ‘Cause Brittany, right now it’s a tough environment. I mean, you know this. Yeah. It’s a tough environment. People- It

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: really is …

Kamala Harris: can be mean. Mm-hmm. Um, there’s just so much to combat in terms of mis- and disinformation.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm-hmm.

Kamala Harris: I think there’s a part of this moment that for so many people, whether they’re running for office or not, you know, it, it feels, um, it can feel as though, you know, w- h- how can we have hope?

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: There’s a, a feeling of hopelessness and people feeling alone. And so part of what I’m talking with folks about is, you know, that’s how they, that’s how they get you.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: That is how they get you.

Kamala Harris: That’s how they- When they can isolate you … right? Yeah. You know what I’m saying. Mm-hmm. That’s how they make you powerless.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm-hmm.

Kamala Harris: Because you feel alone and I, and, and, and, and y- you can’t be isolated. And so- Yeah … this is a moment where we have to remember we have community, and dare I say, and kindness-

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah …

Kamala Harris: in a way to combat the brutality- Yeah … of what these people are pushing.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: They’re pushing it so fervently, and yet we’re having, I think we’re seeing these emerging leaders that are exciting people, right?

Yeah, yeah. You’ve got Mayor Zohran Mamdani in New York. Yeah. You’ve got Mayor Brandon Scott in Baltimore. Yeah. You’ve got, um, uh, Janeese Lewis George here in DC who just- Right … won the Democratic primary. People are excited to see folks who- The mayor

Kamala Harris: of Detroit …

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: the may- yes, the mayor of Detroit. Right. Yes.

Uh-huh. They’re excited to see people who are not just talking it but walking it, people who are actually getting things done. Yeah. I know one of those phone calls was with Mayor Mamdani. What was, what was that conversation like? What did you tell him?

Kamala Harris: Well, we talked. We talked. Um, I was curious to know what he’s hearing.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: You know, what he’s seeing. And I will tell you that the, the things that we talked about included our mutual concern for making sure that life is affordable for working people.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm.

Kamala Harris: Affordable childcare, affordable- Mm-hmm … housing, affordable healthcare. Um, we talked about, you know, this environment and what it means to stay focused on people’s real and actual needs.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: And, and I think there’s so much about this environment that also is suggesting, um, a- again, that we be distracted by d- issues that are not relevant to everyday people.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm-hmm. That’s

Kamala Harris: right. And, and that’s how he and I talked.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: One of those issues that you and I have spoken about at length, including here on Undistracted, um, is arou- is around reproductive justice.

Kamala Harris: Yes.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: The last time you were here, we talked about, um, what life had been like one year since the fall of Roe.

Kamala Harris: Yeah.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: And one of the kind of leadership lessons that I’ve been contemplating lately is that in this time of a need for real moral clarity from our leaders- Yeah … we’re going to be disagreeing with our friends more and more, right?

Um- Yeah, that’s so true … and that there are some times when we have to say, “I love you, but we just have to move in a, in a different direction.”

Kamala Harris: Yeah.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: And it made me think about the dichotomy when you were vice president. You know, President Biden, um, really kind of had to be pressured around federal abortion funding, and he said he was personally uncomfortable with it.

Um, on the flip side, you were the first sitting vice president to visit an abortion clinic. Yeah. You went to Planned Parenthood. How do you navigate disagreeing with your friends on the things that really matter? And also, did you tell him that you were going to that clinic, or were you like, “I’m gonna work it out with the team,” you just popped up?

Kamala Harris: Well, let me just say this. I didn’t need to a- ask permission.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Of course.

Kamala Harris: Uh, so, yeah, no, I mean, I, I had no secrets. There were no secrets. Yeah. So, but, um-

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: You said, “This is where I’m going. This is what we’re doing.”

Kamala Harris: Yeah. Yeah. And here’s the thing about, um, friendships and relationships, and I think you’re right that in the, especially in this last year and a half, almost two years, it, it has challenged a lot of friendships and relationships for a variety- Mm-hmm

of reasons, including some people are feeling it so deeply and cannot not think about it, and others don’t wanna look at, think about it at all.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: And the tension that it’s creating in some friendships about one person feeling intensely about how wrong everything is- Mm-hmm … and the other one wanting to talk about maybe something that is lighter-

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm

Kamala Harris: and, and not focus on it, right?

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm.

Kamala Harris: Um, but to the point of your example, the, it was, it’s simply about this. In that relationship, um, there were things we disagreed about, but never challenged the other person’s, um, sincerity about where they were coming from.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Sure.

Kamala Harris: Right? But difference of opinion. And sometimes very significant differences of opinion.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah. While we are talking about serious matters, although I realize I just said serious matter to a woman of Alpha Kappa Alpha. That was not intentional.

Kamala Harris: Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority Incorporated.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Incorporated. Yes, ma’am. That was not intentional. But, um, artificial intelligence, AI, two different letters.

Kamala Harris: Yes.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Very heavy on everyone’s minds right now. Yes. We’re having serious conversations about AI posing an existential threat to humanity, its threat to the water supply, to the power grid, to creativity and education and the job market. When you were vice president, you led the White House’s, uh, AI policy work, and I noticed that you spent a lot of that time creating a number of safety agreements- Yes

in particular with the tech giants.

Kamala Harris: Right,

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: right. And sometimes that makes me wonder, like, what did you know that we didn’t know? Like, did you know we were in trouble then? What don’t we really understand about what’s happening with AI right now?

Kamala Harris: I did know. And, uh, I mean, I studied it. I presented what was what I believe should be and was the-

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm

Kamala Harris: the perspective of the United States on the global issue of safety in AI. I presented what I believe needs to be the, the spirit with which it is developed, which is that it, it, AI must be developed in the public interest. That is a term that I used and- Right … applied to it. Um, I talked, then this was two and a half years ago in, in the United Kingdom, I talked about the fact that there needs to be, um, moral and ethical rules that are attached- Mm-hmm

to how the work is being done. I, I do feel strongly that it’s, it’s a mistake to think of it as an industry, as though, you know, it’s just developing a thing, like a car- Yeah … when in fact it is ubiquitous and it is engaged in every aspect of life- That’s right … from healthcare to education to employment to the economy- Mm-hmm

to, to social interactions and media, all of that, right?

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm.

Kamala Harris: Here’s how I think about it, Brittany. Um, if I could just break it down in, in simple categories, and there are more, but just simple categories. There’s the piece of it that, for example, a lot of people are dealing with in terms of the data centers.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm.

Kamala Harris: Right? And so there is that piece, which is that there are people making trillions of dollars building those data centers-

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Indeed …

Kamala Harris: which are having a, an, an adverse impact on the communities that are there, and they- Mm-hmm … I have lots of thoughts about how that should be addressed.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm.

Kamala Harris: There is the issue about the future of the workforce-

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm

Kamala Harris: which is a very real one, and so I, my feeling on that is, one, we need to get in front of that, and that workers’ voices need to be at the forefront of how we are thinking about how this develops and plays out, as opposed to just corporations-

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm …

Kamala Harris: making decisions about how they’re gonna train workers.

Workers’ voices need to be at the forefront-

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm …

Kamala Harris: of, of determining how this goes as it relates to the workforce. Um, there is the piece of it that is about- shared prosperity, right? And so there are conversations being had about, you know, what, when you look at it in the context of what already has existed, which is a concentration of wealth and power-

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm

Kamala Harris: increasingly among the few to the neglect of the many, and then you compound that with the extreme wealth that AI is creating- Yes, indeed … and what that will sort of further concentration, concentrate wealth and power.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm.

Kamala Harris: And combine that with the potential for a lot of people losing their jobs over some period of time, how are we as a society gonna deal with that disparity in terms of- Mm-hmm

um, sh- the need for shared prosperity, especially when, and understand, especially when the product of AI is a function of the data you and I-

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Hello …

Kamala Harris: have been putting into the system, and it’s like Pac-Man. It’s eating up all of our information to be- Mm-hmm … so smart.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Yes.

Kamala Harris: Okay?

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: So there’s the data centers, there’s the future of work, there’s the issue of shared prosperity, and then there are the existential threats.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm.

Kamala Harris: And I break that down into three categories.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm.

Kamala Harris: So there is the aspect of it that is cybersecurity.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm.

Kamala Harris: AI get- being used to infiltrate, like, energy systems.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: Right? Hospital systems, cybersecurity. Okay? Mm-hmm. So there’s that piece. Existential threat, right? If it takes out a wh- the, the entire grid of an ener- a energy grid, what that’s gonna mean in terms of if, you know, your, your family member is on dialysis-

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm

Kamala Harris: and, and the machine can’t work.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Yeah. Right?

Kamala Harris: So there’s the cybersecurity piece. There’s the piece that is about biological weapons.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm.

Kamala Harris: So that’s another piece, which is its ability, because it is so smart, to be able to create, um, biological weapons, which of course would be a threat to, you know, very large populations, if not all of humanity.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Absolutely.

Kamala Harris: And then the third piece of it is AI basically being out of control. So the recent stories are about this one AI company, Hugging Face, and basically what happened, again, I’m ex- oversimplifying it to a very- Sure … same degree, but the A- the AI basically went rogue-

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm …

Kamala Harris: and did its own thing without receiving that direction from a human.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm.

Kamala Harris: So this is the universe as I see it around AI. Now, let me also be clear, there are great benefits-

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm …

Kamala Harris: in terms of what this can do to advance our ability to cure cancer- Mm … to solve e- all kinds of problems that plague us as humanity. There is great benefit, but the issue is, are we putting guardrails around it?

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm.

Kamala Harris: For ethical reasons, moral reasons, you know, the societal norms- Mm-hmm … not to mention guardrails around it so that it does not actually harm human beings.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: Whether it be at a, a small or extreme scale.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah. So much of this has to do with the responsibility of the folks in charge, right? Yeah. Who, who are, who build the Frankenstein.

Um, and when I think about who some of those folks have decided to be in bed with or bend the knee to, rather, I- Mm-hmm … struggle, uh, with whether or not they are going to not ever be, not just ever be pushed toward, uh, moral and ethical clarity, um, uh, but if they will, will come to it themselves. I mean, what should people be demanding right now?

What should we be demanding from our leaders right now to make sure that this train doesn’t run over us? ‘Cause I don’t believe it’s inevitable as long as we have something to do about it.

Kamala Harris: I think that’s such a wonderful and important point you’ve made, right? So it, it again gets back to the notion of what, what…

how do we recognize the power of the people-

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm-hmm …

Kamala Harris: to weigh in on this thing that is going to and is currently impacting their lives, and not having a system where things just happen to us without- Yeah … our say.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: That’s right.

Kamala Harris: And so, a, I think a big part of it includes increasing what we can and must do around public education and consumer education-

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

Kamala Harris: around how it works.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm-hmm.

Kamala Harris: Right? Um, there, you know, so and that includes, for example, on the piece about the future of, of the workforce-

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm …

Kamala Harris: my point about having workers-

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Yeah …

Kamala Harris: be at the center of those conversations.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: Right? Um, it includes, uh, having a better understanding and more information about where, what the pace of it is, and that’s where- Mm-hmm

we need to see more transparency-

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm …

Kamala Harris: from the people who are creating it. The, the thing that has happened most recently, um, that is a positive step is that the, the top creators are agreeing that this thing needs to slow down.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: And I agree with that.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm.

Kamala Harris: Um, but we need more public education and consumer education so that the people have the ability to demand what’s in their best interest, um, instead of just being told what will- Yeah

be in their best interest.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Speaking of demanding what’s in our best interest, I told you we’d come back to this, this all-important midterm election.

Kamala Harris: Yeah.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: The attacks on voting rights, on Black political representation, um, on the safety and integrity of this election have been so surgical and pointed. I keep telling- Yeah

people, frankly, that when I look at the math of it, it feels like some folks are very intent on dragging us back to Jim Crow. Yes. Now-

Kamala Harris: Yes …

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: they wanna distract us from that clear plan with a shiny $5,000 bribe, because that’s the only way you can explain it. Girl, come on. Let’s be clear. If he wanted to give everybody five grand, he would’ve done it already.

Um, but you’ve prosecuted petty criminals, not so petty criminals, mob bosses. How do we fight somebody for whom cheating seems like just a Tuesday?

Kamala Harris: We win.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm.

Kamala Harris: That’s how we do it. We win. And that means these midterms coming up, and we elect the House of Representatives so that we have the majority there, and the Senate have the majority there, so we can put the guardrails in-

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm

Kamala Harris: against the cheating and the abuse of power and the corruption. Yeah. Not to mention the incompetence. The

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: incompetence- Right? … too, for sure.

Kamala Harris: I mean, this is the most corrupt, callous, and incompetent presidential administration we’ve ever seen.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm.

Kamala Harris: So, and but, but that’s how we fight. That’s how we, that’s how…

We have to win. Yeah. We have to play to win.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: And that means not giving up our power. That means remembering, I mean, back to the earlier part of our conversation, you know, it, it, it requires, it requires energy to fight.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm.

Kamala Harris: It’s not- Mm-hmm … easy to fight.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: But it’s worth it.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: It’s worth it. And so in the, in the midst of them cheating, why are they cheating?

‘Cause they are scared of the power of the people.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: That’s right.

Kamala Harris: I’ve been traveling the country, as you know. I’ll tell you a quick story about these students in North Carolina. Mm-hmm. North Carolina A&T.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm.

Kamala Harris: The largest HBCU in America.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Yep.

Kamala Harris: And I’d been hearing about these students who are organizing. I went to go visit with them on campus.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm.

Kamala Harris: And they shared with me the elections officials in North Carolina took the polling place from these kids, from these young leaders. Took the polling place from their campus. Then these young leaders went up to the capital to protest, and the leaders in the capital looked at them and said, “You have five minutes to leave.”

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: To leave the house my tax dollars pay for? I thought this

Kamala Harris: was- To leave … the people’s house to leave.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Have

Kamala Harris: mercy. So but t- let me tell you what they’re doing. They are right now raising money- To have buses

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm

Kamala Harris: Take their classmates to the polls. Mm-hmm. And as you and I know, at our HBCUs, it’s not only the students on campus, but we tend to be in the community.

That’s right. That’s where we’re situated. That’s right. So the members of the community also benefit from what’s happening at the school.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: So these young leaders, these students, are aware that part of what they’re raising is to be able to take members of the community on these buses- Mm-hmm … to the polling place, right?

But-

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm …

Kamala Harris: so it’s an example, one, of, of what the fight looks like-

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: That’s right.

Kamala Harris: That’s right … and what should inspire us, but it’s also an example of how, how much they’re, the- these other folks are cheating.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: Because they’re so afraid that when we represent our, our, our, our desires for our future, for our children- Mm-hmm

when we exercise our voice, they are so afraid that they may lo- lose their standing.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: And- Yeah … so what, what do we have to do? Look, as far as I’m concerned, they’re, with the, that Callais decision, the Supreme Court- Mm-hmm … just basically completely killed the Voting Rights Act.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: They’re redistricting in all these southern states.

It is predicted, because of the Callais decision, that as many as one-third of the members of the Congressional Black Caucus will lose their position. Mm-hmm. And as much as that is important about important individuals who, who are representatives losing their position, it is more important about the people who they represent losing their voice in Congress.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: That’s right.

Kamala Harris: It is expected that because of the Callais decision, as many as 200 Black state legislators could lose- Mm-hmm … their positions. They’re cheating because- Mm-hmm … they’re trying to steal power. And what we need to do, and what we will do, and what we are doing is knowing then, okay, I got you.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: So you’re trying to throw some obstacles in my way, well, what, look how high I can jump over them.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm.

Kamala Harris: And we will turn out the vote, and we will turn out the vote so big that we will be too big to rig.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm. Too big to rig. That’s the one right there.

Kamala Harris: Right?

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: You talking about NCAT, I have another working theory about how this particular theft is going down. Yeah. So I was with, with our friend Pastor Jamal Bryant.

Yes. Um, a few months ago I did his podcast, and I told him about this theory. I want your opinion on it.

Kamala Harris: Okay.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: We’ve seen this serious conservative culture war, financial war- Mm-hmm … political war be waged against, I told him three, but really four distinct and important Black institutions: the Black church-

Kamala Harris: Yeah

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: holders of Black history, like our beloved Blacksonian, Black Greek letter organizations, and historically Black colleges and universities. My theory, is that just like Trump in 2016 was a backlash to the Obama years-

Kamala Harris: Mm-hmm …

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: that the surgical attack and attempt to undermine and defang the power of Black institutions- Mm-hmm

is a pointed backlash to your power and your vice presidency. I think that they looked at that and they said, “How did this woman that we wanted to count out make her way all the way to the vice president’s mansion, almost make her way to the presidency,” and had to reckon with self-funded, independent Black institutions who helped build you, but also give our communities power.

Yeah. So what do you think of my working theory? Why attack Black institutions and Black history in particular while they’re trying to cheat?

Kamala Harris: I think your theory is very powerful. If you look at the success of any one of us, especially those of us who have achieved, ach- achieved any level of historic-

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm-hmm

Kamala Harris: um, status, those institutions made us.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: That’s right.

Kamala Harris: And certainly directly, not just indirectly, contributed to us being where we are-

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: That’s right …

Kamala Harris: and holding us up. So I think your, your, your theory is very powerful.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: See? This is what I be telling folks. See? Okay. Yeah. So everybody should believe me because MVP agreed with me.

All right. So speaking of HBCUs- Well,

Kamala Harris: because also this is the thing, and you know, people joke about my whole thing about everything exists in the context of other things.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yes, indeed. And I know

Kamala Harris: I’m in

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: on the joke. We did not just fall out the coconut tree.

Kamala Harris: But what you are describing is context.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yes.

Kamala Harris: And so for that young man or woman who is running to be the first Black whatever- Mm-hmm

they are running for, wherever they are-

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm …

Kamala Harris: the fact of these institutions gives them infrastructure and context a, to, to, within which they can exist if they so choose, right? Yeah. And that’s important. Mm-hmm. Because, you know, it, it, none of us, I’ll speak for myself, none of us achieve success without that level of profound support and, and, and reinforcement.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yes. Yes.

Kamala Harris: Right? Around not only a memory of legacy and the path that, on which you stand that was- Mm-hmm … was charted long before you-

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm-hmm …

Kamala Harris: but also giving you some sense of pride in what can be the destiny, and was the destiny that so many fought for.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: Right?

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah. Yeah. So speaking of HBCUs- Mm-hmm … I have a little quiz for you.

Kamala Harris: Okay.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Just a little lightning round. It’s nothing, no, no pressure. Okay. The first one should be very easy.

Kamala Harris: Okay.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Which historically Black university is the real HU? Howard

Kamala Harris: University.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: No shade to our friends at Hampton Institute. We love you.

Kamala Harris: None whatsoever. You know, Hampton’s campus is quite beautiful.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: It

Kamala Harris: is quite beautiful.

In fact, let me just… And, and, and, and it’s nice to go there except for homecoming when of course they come to Howard. But let me just… You

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: go, okay. Just so we’re clear.

Kamala Harris: I can’t help myself

Kamala Harris: But let me just say, let me say this, though, about Hampton. When I was vice president, um, that was my most recent visit to Hampton’s campus.

Mm-hmm. And I was there because, as you know, I was the head of the Space Council. Yes. And Hampton has the distinction among many universities, regardless of HBCU status, of d- of partnering with NASA.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: And they’re doing some beautiful work at Hampton, I might

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: add as well. Look at that.

Kamala Harris: Yeah.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: See? This is what we do at Undistracted.

We can bring both HUs together.

Kamala Harris: Oh, that’s exactly right. Nothing but love.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Okay. Here’s another one. You’re a private citizen now. What is your favorite thing to do that you couldn’t do before?

Kamala Harris: Okay. Brittany. D- don’t tell too many people. Um, you know what I’m doing? I’m taking Pilates.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: That’s fun.

Kamala Harris: I am. It’s… Have you done it?

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: I have. It’s, it’s a… That’s a workout. It’s a workout. I, because I grew up dancing, so Pilates felt very natural for me. Yeah. And then I tried to do it again when I got grown, and I had to, I had to restart a few times.

Kamala Harris: It’s really, because it’s about stretching- Mm-hmm … and it’s strength, and it’s breathing.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm-hmm.

Kamala Harris: Um-

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: It centers you. I lo- Yeah … I’m, this is- Yeah. I’m very much liking this on you. Okay. All right. Pilates. We’re doing Pilates now. You spent some time with the cast of A Different World, my favorite sitcom ever. Yes. I’m so glad it’s coming back soon. I know.

Kamala Harris: Isn’t that great? And Debbie Allen

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: I’m so excited.

Uh-huh. Yes. Gosh, a genius. When you were at Howard- Mm-hmm … were you a Whitley, a Kimberly, or a Freddie?

Kamala Harris: Oh, that’s interesting. I mean, a little bit of them. I mean, that’s the beauty of being at a school- Yeah … like Howard, right? Like, you don’t have to choose. I mean, I-

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Yeah …

Kamala Harris: I, as you know, I pledged a sorority, or I’m supposed to say- Mm-hmm

I joined a sorority. Uh- Yes.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Yes.

Kamala Harris: I, um, you know, I was the head of the Econ Society. Mm-hmm. I was on the debate team. Okay. I certainly went to my share of parties. Yes. You know? Um- So

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: that, that really is all three of them.

Kamala Harris: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Kim, Kim was, Kim was in charge of the groups. Right. Freddie did her debate thing.

Um, we know that Whitley was in the sorority. Okay. Right. This makes sense. Right. You were, you were a good mix of all of them. Um, which would you prefer, rage DoorDashing or rage cooking?

Kamala Harris: Oh, rage cooking.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Is there a particular dish that just helps you get the, get the frustration out?

Kamala Harris: Um, it depends on how, how deep is my need to chop.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: If you really need to cut something, what’s the dish we’re going with?

Kamala Harris: You know what I’m saying? It’s an onion. I do. Give me an onion.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: But, um-

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah, like a big bowl of chili or something like that …

Kamala Harris: but otherwise, you know, probably in terms of the, the, the final product in, in a moment like that, it’d be pasta, right?

Okay. So any kind of pasta. That’s just comfort.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Nice and soothing. I like that. Lastly, if you were stranded on an island, which would you rather have with you? A, Concepts of a Plan.

Kamala Harris: B,

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: a Big Sister General, or C- A coconut tree?

Kamala Harris: Oh, that’s really good. I think, um, a big sister general would come in real handy.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Come in real handy.

Kamala Harris: Yeah, real handy. Uh-huh.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Get a big sister general to chop down the coconuts.

Kamala Harris: But that’s what I’m saying. The big sister general’s gonna chop the coconuts down. Gonna… I mean, just gonna handle everything. Uh-huh. Get you from concept to outline Gonna be the one putting the SOS out on the sand.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yep, yep.

Kamala Harris: Uh-huh.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Okay, this is smart. So we got Pilates, we got pasta, we got a big sister general on a deserted island. I’m just… I’m so grateful to you for coming back here-

Kamala Harris: Aw, this was such a joy … to Undistracted. And congratulations on all your success. Thank you. And, and just you just being so true to your voice- Thank you

and, and to, v- you know, to the issues. Thank you for that.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: I really appreciate that. Thank you. You know, I, I… You showed everybody what always happens when we see each other, because you always ask me how my boys are w- whenever we see each other. And

Kamala Harris: they are so precious.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: They are so precious. And it’s so interesting, because after we had our oldest, you know, people ask you, “Are you gonna have a second?”

And I said, “We gotta wait to see what happens with this election.” I

Kamala Harris: know. ‘Cause I

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: just was like, I just did not know. And little did I know that I was pregnant at the DNC. Um, and I remember- Oh, I didn’t

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: realize that …

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: I, I didn’t, I didn’t realize it either.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Right, right.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: But I remember being so full of hope on election day, standing on the yard at Howard, and I was hiding my pregnancy, and then coming back the next day and I just said, “Well, we’ll let it all hang out because we’re here and we’re trying to get through this together.”

Kamala Harris: Yeah.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: So, one day I was not pregnant to people, and the next day I was, and I stood there as you gave such a clear-eyed, hopeful vision for the future, and really buoyed my spirits and so many others. But then I remember coming back home, and I sat and I rubbed my belly, and I just had this sinking question as to whether or not I had been silly to hope.

Oh, Honey. As to whether or not all of these folks from all of these various backgrounds, especially Black women and Black men who really showed up and stood in the gap for the belief that it was- Yeah … possible through you, if we were, if we were silly to hope, given the history of this country and the patterns that we know it’s addicted to.

‘Cause now I’ve got these two boys who are living in this world- Yeah … and I’m trying so desperately to protect their joy and their power and their innocence while we struggle to get to the next world and build the world they deserve. But I know that in order to do that, we’re gonna have to do more than just rely on Black women’s labor.

We’re going to have to be willing to follow Black women’s leadership, and this country struggles with that. We have yet to elect a Black woman governor. There have been very few Black women senators. You are one of them. In your heart of hearts, do you think America will ever be ready for a Black woman president?

Kamala Harris: Yes. And I, I’m gonna say that for a couple reasons. One, I, I, I, I don’t like to look backward, but for the sake of the facts, we, we were the closest presidential election in the 21st century-

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm …

Kamala Harris: to elect a Black woman president.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: That’s

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: right.

Kamala Harris: One of the top three closest presidential elections in the history of the election.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm.

Kamala Harris: Um, but equally important, if not more important- We the people will determine the answer to that question.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah. We get to choose.

Kamala Harris: We get to choose. And so the question is, do we then own that power to, to chart the direction, right? And that’s, I think that’s, that’s it. I, because the, the concern I have with the question is, and it, a lot of people are raising it, right?

Mm-hmm. Is, and thank you for giving me the opportunity to address it- Mm-hmm … is that there, there are certain underlying assumptions, um, that also have the effect of ba- basically suggesting to Black women that they should not be seeking these roles of leadership.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: That’s right.

Kamala Harris: And I absolutely reject that.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm.

Kamala Harris: Don’t tell me I can’t do it because it hasn’t been done before. Mm. Are you kidding me? And if I listened to that kind of approach, I wouldn’t even… We, you and I wouldn’t be talking right now.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: We would not be.

Kamala Harris: I was the first Black woman in almost every position I’ve held, except when I was in the United States Senate, and I was the second-

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm

Kamala Harris: behind Carol Moseley Braun.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm.

Kamala Harris: So I think it’s really important that we also not allow ourselves, through our fear-

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm …

Kamala Harris: and our pain. Mm-hmm. Look,

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: I’m…

Kamala Harris: Real talk, right?

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: 92%, right?

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: The pain of that on, on, on election night, right?

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: For, for so many. We can’t let our memory of that pain distract us from our purpose-

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm

Kamala Harris: in knowing what’s possible and, and being able to see what is possible and, and, and make it happen.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: Right? ‘Cause w- we don’t have to wait for other people to give us permission.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm.

Kamala Harris: I think that’s a really bad place to be in. I, you know, I mentor a lot of people, and I always tell them, “Don’t you ever feel you need to ask somebody’s permission to lead.”

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm.

Kamala Harris: You wanna lead, you lead.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm-hmm.

Kamala Harris: Right?

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah. Yeah. I always say Black women are electable if you elect them.

Kamala Harris: That’s right. That’s beautiful. That’s exactly right. Yeah. That’s… And, and there are plenty of Black women who have proven, and, and plenty of people-

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: People …

Kamala Harris: regardless of their gender and race, who have proven that to be true.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm-hmm.

Kamala Harris: Right?

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: And so, you know, as much as anything, I, my answer to your question is because I’m not gonna give up on the people.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm.

Kamala Harris: Right?

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah. You know? Yeah. Nelson Mandela said it, “It always seems impossible until it’s done,” so. Yes. I know you haven’t made your decision yet, but I’m going to stay lifted with that thought and be, um, so, so grateful for the time that you spent here with us today at Undistracted to close out our fourth season.

Um, we really appreciate you for taking the time- Oh … ’cause we know you’re busy and having lots of conversations with the people, so thanks for coming back.

Kamala Harris: Thank you, Brittany. Thank you.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: All right, y’all. I’m joined for the season four finale Untrending News today by both of our group chat besties, CEO and executive director of the National Black Justice Collective, the Dr.

David J. Johns, and women and gender studies scholar Dr. Brittney Cooper. Y’all, can you believe 20 episodes? We’re here at the finale. There’s so much to talk about. Um, first of all, we just had another conversation, another historic conversation with Vice President Harris on the show today, and at the end of the conversation, I asked if she thinks America will ever be ready for a Black woman president.

Uh, let’s look at what she said. In your heart of hearts, do you think America will ever be ready for a Black woman president?

Kamala Harris: Yes. We can’t let our memory of that pain distract us from our purpose- Mm-hmm … in knowing what’s possible and, and being able to see what is possible and, and, and make it happen.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Yeah.

Kamala Harris: Right? ‘Cause w- we don’t have to wait for other people to give us permission.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: So y’all, what do you think? ‘Cause I was really glad to actually get her on the record on this question, ’cause it’s a conversation that everybody has. And to be clear, people don’t ask the question, they just draw the conclusion, and they’re most often saying America will never be ready.

Brittney, what do you think?

Dr. Brittney Cooper: I think that we said the same thing about Barack Obama, and now I think that we’ve had Barack Obama, and I think that we should ready ourselves, and we should see, um, Vice President Harris’ historic tenure in office as an invitation to be ready and to be worthy of Black women’s leadership and genius.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah. I mean, doc, uh, doctor, the other doc, David, you worked for Obama, right? Like, everybody says what’s not s- poss- not possible, and when we say it’s not possible over and over and over again, David, it becomes this, a very dangerous self-fulfilling prophecy

Dr. David Johns: Yeah, if Dr. Freeman Hrabowski were here, he would recite the quote that talks about, like, your thoughts become your actions, your actions become your fundamental beliefs.

The point is, for me, is that I appreciate that the first Black vi- vice president is modeling something that I wish more of us would model out loud, in public, and especially for children, which is that it is possible to take a hit and still hold on to dreaming and Afro futuristic technicolor.

Dr. Brittney Cooper: Mm-hmm.

Dr. David Johns: Um, I am, as, uh, you both know, in the, the final stages of editing the soon-to-be-released Black Paper.

Whoo. One of the lines that I’m holding on from that book is that everybody’s, um, uh, uh… what we all experience was at some point everybody’s impossible dream. And so I hope that we all find ways to not only, um, show up and vote and do the work that we need to continue to do, including teaching the baby, but we also find ways to sleep and rest and enjoy resting- Yeah

so we can dream.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah. I also think that, you know, what she said about it being our choice, that we get to choose what the answer to that question is, means so much in this moment when everything feels inevitable. The AI train rolling over us feels inevitable. Um, authoritarian fears feels inevitable to some people.

Now this guy is shoving, uh, news stations out of the room because he’s continuing to consolidate media. And so, it feels like the doom is inevitable if we don’t pay attention to the facts. And the facts tell us that we defy expectations every day, especially the folks who come from our ancestry, and that the power is actually ours, that we don’t have to relinquish our power to anybody, that we don’t have to just give up and give over our futures to people.

We get to decide who’s next up, uh, in the House, in the Senate, um, in governor’s mansions, in local facilities this midterm, and most certainly in 2028. We’re going to, A, make sure we have an election ’cause that’s on us too. And then B, we’re gonna make sure that we put into off- uh, put into office the person that we want.

I just wanted to hear you all’s response to that ’cause I was so glad to have her back on the show. So moving on, um, this is not really untrending, but I do want you all’s thoughts on this because friend of the show Nikole Hannah-Jones, AKA Ida B. Wells, put out another powerful essay in The New York Times this week about school segregation, this time reflecting 10 years later on her own daughter’s gripes about being sent to a low-income, struggling, and this time predominantly Black public school in Brooklyn.

After decades of reporting on the atrocities of this nation’s school system, Nikole and her partner, Faraji, had decided that they wanted to be the kind of parents to bring their money, privilege, resources, and advocacy to the type of often neglected schools that she believed needed more investment by sending her daughter there starting in pre-K.

But despite their relative privilege, they faced horrifying situations with some teachers that reportedly weren’t assigning any homework, weren’t reviewing assignments, and were making up test grades out of thin air. She let her daughter choose where she wanted to go to high school, and she chose a predominantly white privileged public school that shares a building with an underfunded Black public school, so, um, that’s frankly the exact kind of school that Nikole detests.

And her daughter struggled socially there while adjusting to the academics as well. There in the end of this beautiful essay, her daughter really confronts Nikole about having sent her to a school where she, uh, knew was subpar, and Nikole apologizes, concluding that the New York City school system is, quote, “So devastatingly unequal, that it puts at odds trying to be a good per- person with a good parent.”

I know all of us are educators. We all had a lot of reactions to this essay. It feels like the internet had a whole lot of reactions to this essay. It felt like people was in they feelings, and understandably so, because education is deeply personal to people. Coop, what w- what was your reaction to this essay?

How did you, how did you receive it?

Dr. Brittney Cooper: I remember when Nikole talked about her initial set of choices 10 years ago.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Brittney Cooper: Um, and what I appreciated, I, I thought that it was deeply complicated and nuanced, but I also thought that what I most appreciated was that Nikole has raised a daughter who could say to her, “Mom- Yeah

this is not working for me, and- Yeah … I need better choices.” Um, I have been bothered by some of the, the strident reactions, and I want to hold with tenderness that, uh, that is because in a white supremacist society that has built itself as a fundamental premise on denying Black people access to literacy and access to education-

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Yeah

Dr. Brittney Cooper: there is a strand of our, of our lives that is about the right to the best education possible, to see it as a pathway. And at the same time, I also appreciate the ways in which Nikole said, “My money is on Black people, is on Black- Mm-hmm … communities, is on the power of Black parents to advocate for their children.”

And I’m sort of bothered by the, what feels to me like a little bit of cultural schadenfreude at the fact that in many ways that advocacy wasn’t enough to get even her own daughter over the hump. That’s not a thing for us to celebrate our rightness about, those of us who might have chosen differently if we’re in that position.

Rather, it is an opportunity for us to really advocate for better conditions. And the last thing I’ll say is it’s not lost on me that Nikole absolutely wrote this piece in Zoran Mamdani’s New York. Mm. And I wonder if part of what this is is an attempt to say, “We are in a moment where we can make some better decisions about public school access for all children.”

Yeah. “And so it’s not just enough if my daughter gets the access if everybody else does not.”

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: David, your mantra is teach the babies. This is your life’s work. How did you read this? ‘Cause I, I had so many reactions. The first one was that I, I felt like it was courageous, because plenty of people make decisions and then never write about them when they go wrong.

That’s right. Never say, “My daughter is really mad at me,” out loud and in public, uh, let alone in The New York Times. But beyond the clear courage of simply telling the truth out loud in public, there were a lot of layers here.

Dr. David Johns: There were many, and so let’s, uh, s- uh, uh, separate at least the two as you presented them.

It was beautiful and refreshing to see Nikole again model something that too many of us big babies, um, are, are counseled out of doing, um, and that are important for all of us to be able to heal, uh, share critical information, and collectively get closer to freedom. Now, to the question of things that it raised for me, um, as you mentioned, I started Teach the Babies, the podcast in particular, to grapple with some of the questions that Nikole’s essay raised, including what did Brown versus the Board of Education cost us literally and figuratively?

And in the decade after Brown, some n- 40,000 Black educators in the South that we know of were pushed out of their jobs. And so as Nikole raised the question of who’s responsible and then gave a list of things, including poverty and whiteness and hoarding of resources, educators were also on that list.

And so I wanna highlight and say thank you to Black educators who love Black babies, who show up- Yeah … to the system in spite of everything that was written about and that wasn’t, because it’s also focused on a major metropolitan schools district. So many of our Black babies are concentrated in the South, where we are disproportionately located, and we attend small, rural, and isolated schools which have a, um, a, a spate of challenges unto themselves.

And so I just wanna highlight again the fact that, um, educators matter. Um- Yeah … not that I don’t want lost in this is that Black students with one Black teacher by third grade are more than 13 times more likely to go enroll in college, and with two, are more than 32%.

BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM: Mm-hmm. Um,

Dr. David Johns: while Nikole spent a lot of time, uh, painting, uh, very vividly the landscape of the New York City school system and segregation more specifically, I want to underscore something she referenced, it, it felt almost in passing, which is that we know what works, right?

Freedom schools, what Dr. Jarvis calls fugitive pedagogy. Yeah. Black teachers teaching Black children the truth about themselves, who they are and whose they are, both inside of the schools and outside of the schools. And so I don’t want us to be mired in what felt like the weight of that beautifully written essay, because we know what’s working.

So I want us to go back to, to under- to appreciating that we as a people have never fully abdicated the responsibility of teaching our babies to a school system designed for privileged, wealthy white men.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: You know, I read this essay through the lens of a conversation I had with my mother that I talked about on Threads this week.

And I remember being in the car with her. I was grown. I was running an education nonprofit back home in St. Louis, and I was, uh, in the midst of trying to pen an op-ed, um, that would be co-signed by many people, um, during a crisis point in, in St. Louis education when a Black mother had successfully sued for her child to be able to attend, um, an accredited school district that she was not zoned to, um, for free.

Um, because that’s what Missouri law states, that if your child is zoned to an unaccredited school district, that your child has the ability to go to an accredited school district, and that essentially the public money would follow the child. So this Black mother sued and won. And so what that, of course, opened the door for was a bunch of other parents saying, “Well, uh, put, put us on the bus,” right?

And so the way that the law worked was that they would have to, um, certain school districts would partner up. The unaccredited school district would select the accredited one, and any s- child that wanted to transfer could do so, and the state was responsible for providing the transportation. Mm-hmm. So that meant that now you were going to, once again, similar to our desegregation program in the ’80s, uh, in St.

Louis, have buses of Black children waking up very early, leaving their neighborhoods and going to mostly white neighborhoods. And the white parents had town hall meetings. Yep. And they stood up in gymnasiums- Yep … and talked about our children like dogs. Yep. And I don’t mean that

Dr. David Johns: figuratively. Even worse than, ’cause they love dogs.

Remember Michael Vick? They love

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: dogs. Now you’re right. Now that’s, now that’s right. They love dogs. But I don’t mean that, like, with hyperbole. Yeah. I literally mean they called them dogs. Yeah. They called them trash. Mm. They said they moved away from that neighborhood to get away from those people. And all of this happened publicly, and these young people are trying to enjoy their summers, trying to get ready for the next school year, and witnessing how we are discussing them.

So I’m writing this op-ed with a bunch of people who are trying to stand up against that very clear and overt racism, and try to stand in protection of and with our, our young people. And I asked my mom this question. I said, “If you had to do, to do all over again, would you still have sent myself and my brother Barrington to private schools,” majority white private schools that we attended, very academically rigorous, “or would you have sent us to public school?”

And she looked at me, and she said, “I would have home schooled you.” And in that moment, she cemented something for me that I had long known, which is that in all of these systems, but especially our educational system, Black parents have false choices. There is a limited set of options for which, for the most part, not for everybody, but for the most part there are trade-offs.

So the trade-off that my mother made was, “You’re gonna go to an academically rigorous school, but I’m gonna have to do all of your cultural enrich- enrichment, cultural confidence, personal confidence outside of school.” And it still took me so many years to unlearn the in- the intense anti-Blackness that I had internalized about myself, and I’m still unlearning some of it.

Because I was very well-prepared academically, but socio-emotionally, culturally, and in terms of my self-esteem and confidence, I was wrecked, right? Um, and my brother had an even different experience as a Black boy. And so… A- and she was saying this in the context of being a St. Louis public school graduate herself.

This is a false set of choices, ’cause the oth- the choice my mom made was, “I would have figured out a way to be working my 9:00 to 5:00 and then from 5:00 to 9:00 teaching y’all,” which would have been next to impossible, and would have had its own costs, right? So, like, the point here is Black young people pay a price no matter what, because all of these systems are violent for them.

I think about how when the case of Nolan Wells happened, and we’re today sitting here where the grand jury has decided not to charge anybody at this point, um, which is a disgusting reality in this country, especially in Mississippi. But I think about how many people criticized his parents for how many white friends he had and sending him to, um, a, a more privileged school.

So you’re criticizing Nikole for sending her child to the Black school, and you’re criticizing Cr- Miss Christine for sending her child to a more diverse school. The point is the choices are shit. Yeah. And the only choice Black parents get to make, and the only choice Black children get to make, is which shit end of the stick they get.

That’s right. That, to me, is a systemic problem that should not fall on any particular Black parent or Black child to have to singularly solve. The fact that our choices are so limited should be what’s actually critiqued, instead of parents who are trying to do the best by their children, and children who are trying to do the best by themselves.

Before we go, I wanted to touch on this lawsuit coming out of San Antonio, and unfortunately, this is untrending, but I’m hoping we can pay more attention to it. Because while women are endangered by abortion bans and they have largely fallen out of the headlines, this is reportedly the first lawsuit about a woman who died because she couldn’t get an abortion.

The family of Tierra Walker, a 37-year-old San Antonio mother, has filed a lawsuit against Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton and several state and hospital officials, alleging Texas abortion ban led to her death in December 2024. According to the suit, Walker suffered seizures, blood clots, and dangerously high blood pressure during her pregnancy, but was repeatedly denied an abortion despite pleading for one to save her life.

Texas law actually allows an abortion when the mother’s life is at risk, but the suit argues that that, that exception exists, quote, “Only on paper.” The hospital staff allegedly told her that, quote, “Nothing was wrong with the baby,” and that she just needed to get her health under control. Doesn’t that sound familiar?

Hmm. The suit, filed in Bexar County District Court, is seeking damages and a ruling that Texas’ abortion ban is unconstitutional. They said, “No one should have to deal and experience what my family has gone through.” Those are the words of LaTanya Walker, Tierra’s aunt. She said, “Tierra was the glue that held our family together, and now she is gone.”

I’m thinking of this in particular, uh, because of Cecile Richards’ passing and reproductive rights being at risk of getting drowned out by the news cycle around AI and global conflict. Important conversations, certainly, but we should connect these dots and have a coordinated movement response to look at this issue and keep it from fading to view.

Really quickly, Coop, David, what should we be doing about this, and how should we be supporting Tierra’s family?

Dr. Brittney Cooper: Um, I, I wanna note that it’s Bexar County, that X always, um, it’s, it’s- Oh,

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: thank you. Child, that tells you how much time I’ve been spending in Texas.

Dr. Brittney Cooper: Yeah, no, it’s- Bexar County …

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: yeah. Thank

Dr. Brittney Cooper: you. I read, yeah, it’s Bexar County.

Um, the, listen, I wanna just reca- remind us of Amber Thurman, uh, the Black woman who also needed abortion care, could not get it, died, and left a, a, a baby son here, uh, to be cared for. Um, I wanna remind us of Shalon Irving, the, the young woman who, uh, died because of maternal mortality kinds of concerns, uh, many years ago.

Um, and, and then want to add Tierra Walker to that list and say that what- Yeah … I’m tired of is this litany of Black mothers dying because of failures of our healthcare system, oh, a- and, and moralizing and imposing that on our bodies. And so- Yeah … we should be talking about this lawsuit. We should recognize that this is a full court press.

All of it’s a reproductive justice issue. Tierra Walker- All of it … and Nolan Wells are part of the same conversation. That’s right. Reproductive justice says you get to have children, not have children, and parent the children that you have in safe and healthy environments. And the minute that we start to understand that b- protecting mothers’ right to, or protecting folks’ right to an abortion is the same thing as protecting womens’ right to good healthcare, access to birth babies- Yeah

the same protection of making sure that Nolan Wells does not go out on a trip and not come back, and nobody’s- That’s right … held accountable, is all one conversation, and it matters. That’s right. Yeah.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: That’s right. And that all of our children have a quality education. All the same conversation. In

Dr. Brittney Cooper: all the same conversation.

Dr. David Johns: That, that begins before birth. I wanna pick up where Coop left off, which is to, uh, underscore the point that Tierra Walker asked for the care that could have saved her life. And that Texas legislators wrote a law that made her doctors afraid to say yes. While we are saying their names, I wanna add Porsha Ngumezi, a 35, uh, year old Black mother of two in Houston.

Nevaeh Crain, 18 years old. Josseli Barnica. These are all women who, whose deaths have been documented- That’s right … under suspect circumstances. And as a, a, a nephew of Texas, both my parents were born there, my sister, my niece, my two nephews live there now, this makes me beyond, uh, angry. I want everyone to b- to go back to the previous c- uh, conversation around cost, the Black tax.

Yeah. In 2023, Black women died of pregnancy related causes at more than three times- Mm … the rate of White women. And most of these deaths are preventable, and that, um, a, a law has been passed that requires doctors to betray a Hippocratic Oath should have us all asking the question: How do we scare elected leaders into doing the jobs that they have been elected to do?

So the very direct answer to your question of what we do in this moment, beloved, is we vote. Mm-hmm. And we vote in ways that are aligned with the lives that we want to lead, as well as the lives that have been lost. To underscore this point, 82% of Texans already support, 82% of voters in Texas already support allowing an abortion to protect a woman’s physical health.

Yeah. The ban doesn’t reflect Texans, it reflects the people that Texans can replace on November 3rd.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Hello.

Dr. Brittney Cooper: And Ken, and Pi- Ken Paxton is running for office in Texas right now. And so this should be- There he is … a five alarm fire that this is going to be a full court assault on Black women’s lives, and therefore on Black communities’ lives.

And so this is the way that we should be messaging and talking about it. If he’s just okay expending Black women, m- so my, my deep ancestral hope is that this lawsuit runs him into the ground, and that

Dr. David Johns: he- Not just okay, not, not just o- Out of office. Yeah, not just okay, because to that point, they are hiding the receipts until after the election, and we should all work woke.

Texas usually releases its maternal mortality report around September 1st. We would’ve had it right now. We would already know how many- Would’ve had it … Black people have died as a result to all of this. This year, report is moved to December, after the midterms. The state says that they’re not delaying report, but- If it looks like a lie- That’s the situation

if, if it looks like a lie- That they are- … it shows up like a lie, either way- It’s a lie … Texans can vote.

Dr. Brittney Cooper: Yeah, they are- Texans can vote for Kamala Harris. Listen, this is a… Listen, these people are ma-… Like, you began this conversation by asking us about the vice president. Mm-hmm. One of the ways that these people are working out their retaliatory, grievance-led politics- Oh, man

against Black communities is literally by instituting laws that kill Black folks, and in particular- Yeah … that have a disproportionate effect on Black women, a disproportionate effect on Black girls, because people don’t want there to be any more Kamala Harris’. Yeah. People don’t want Black women to have pathways to advocate for themselves in systems, and they are retaliating against the possibility of a Harris by wreaking hell on our communities.

Hmm. And it’s a conversation that we aren’t having enough. And so if we then wanna connect the way, what has happened with the, with the Hannah-Jones’s daughter to this broader conversation, Black women and girls are catching hell every which way that we look. And when Black women and girls are catching hell, that means broader Black communities are catching hell, quite frankly, because they’re…

because Black boys, Black gender expansive- Yeah … kids are learning in the same schools. They are the children that are not making it here because of these terrible healthcare systems. Yeah. And they aren’t being believed when we walk in to talk to doctors. Here’s the thing, when we walk in to talk to doctors, when we walk in to talk to school principals, no one listens to the things that we say.

And when Kamala Harris tried to tell us how it was gonna be, nobody listened to her either, and here we are.

Dr. David Johns: Fuck around and

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: find out. To be clear- … if it is happening to us, it will happen to you. Black folks are always the canary in the coal mine. So, this is why we stay undistracted. This is why we stay up in the group chat, to have the conversations you can’t have anywhere else, because the internet is where nuance has gone to die, but we can certainly keep it alive and well here.

Dr. Cooper, Dr. Johns, thank you so much for joining us for season four of Undistracted in this group chat. I’ll see y’all in the real group chat, and we’ll keep this going. Love y’all.

Dr. David Johns: Love you, too.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: I really can’t believe it’s been four seasons. I can’t believe y’all gave us this cute Webby over here. I can’t believe that over these four seasons we have built such incredible community, that you all have kept us righteous, kept us honest, called us out when we didn’t get it right, and stayed locked in with us so that we could keep getting it more right.

We’re undistracted because of you. I’m undistracted because of you. This platform means so, so, so much to me, to elevate stories other people aren’t talking about, elevate voices that should be heard more, elevate ideas and concepts, and help us ask better questions so that we can become better answers. I become a better answer every single time I get to ask our guests questions, because frankly, I really just wanted to build a podcast to talk to the people that I wanted to learn from.

So I hope that you’ve had fun learning and laughing and living this season with us. While we’re on hiatus, make sure that you are subscribing to and sharing Undistracted on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. There’s plenty of work for us to do, and I’m grateful to the folks who this season and in seasons past have taught us how to do it.

Thanks for listening. Thanks for being, and most importantly, thanks always for doing. I’m Brittany Packnett Cunningham. Let’s go get free.

Our executive producers are Cindi Leive and myself, Brittany Packnett Cunningham.

Our producer at Collective Media is Douglas Forte with supervising producer Ryan Jones.

Our supervising producer at The Meteor is Taylor Hosking and artwork is by Bianca Alvarez.

This episode was produced with support from Liberation Ventures and The Meteor Fund.

You can follow me on all social media @mspackyetti and our incredible team @themeteor.