Please note: This transcript has been automatically generated.

Adam Serwer: I think it’s always important to remember when people talk about reparations that we’re not just talking about slavery, although that’s an important part, part of the story. Absolutely. They’re talking about discrimination that persisted into the middle of the 20th century and, and really shaped the economy.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Hey, y’all. So, we are recording this episode the week of Juneteenth, and of course, this is the run-up to the 250th anniversary of the United States. Now, I done already told y’all, America is about to throw itself a birthday party it does not deserve. And then they had the nerve to ring it in by desecrating the White House grounds for a damn cage match, where folks were throwing trash and fighting in the audience.

Where are the parents? I mean, are there any fathers in the home? Reckless. Then they closed up their raggedy prelude by insulting the one and only Michelle Obama with a nod to how white supremacy has never, and I mean never, included Black women in its definition of womanhood. But true to our name, and the Toni Morrison who gave it to us, we know that white supremacy and all his sons are but a distraction.

They are here to keep us from doing our work, to have us explaining over and over and over again our very reason for being. So bump all that. We’re actually gonna be thinking about what matters at a time like this, about history, about possibility, about radical imagination that shouldn’t actually be all that radical.

For me, that means my mind has been on the question of reparations, and specifically reparations for Black folks in America, which is an issue that y’all know I care about not just politically, but personally. My ancestors built this joint for free. My granddaddy fought in y’all’s wars and never got his GI Bill, and my mama, my mama is older than her voting rights.

Repair ain’t a game for me, and it shouldn’t be for America either. So we’re gonna be exploring the issue of reparations on the pod this summer, and hearing from some of the most interesting people I know about it. Yes, now is always a time to discuss reparations. Today’s guest is the one and only Adam Serwer, my friend and superstar writer for The Atlantic.

He’s gonna help us put everything in perspective, and you know what? I don’t think we actually need to talk much more about that UFC nonsense on the White House grounds. We’re gonna stay focused, because we are undistracted.

So I wanna tell y’all a story. Picture preteen me, I live in St. Louis, North St. Louis County to be exact. It’s summertime. The Iggy’s, that’s frozen yogurt y’all, is flowing. The sprinklers are running in the front lawn, and you know, I’m just minding my good Black childhood carefree business. And in I walk to our house, and I see a copy of a book on my parents’ bookshelf.

It’s called Post Traumatic Slave Syndrome by Dr. Joy DeGruy. Now, as you can imagine, seeing this definitely shook me to my core. I was like, “What in the world is this about?” And let me tell you, that is a s- book I have visited a few times to make sure I fully understand it, to make sure I wrap my arms around it.

And when I think about the word reparations, I think about myself back then, really beginning to unfurl just how history is not actually history, how the economic violence that started in enslavement did not end with slavery, because it just compounds. It shows up in the neighborhood that isn’t safe, in the health outcome that comes too early, in the school that doesn’t have enough.

Less money, generation after generation, robs Black children of their health, their safety, their education, and their future. That’s why we’re talking about reparations now. Because before Juneteenth, before the Fourth of July, before, uh, this season that this country loves to call freedom, I say let’s not flinch.

Let’s not soften things. Let’s not get weak. This is America’s chance to begin again, to really confront our history, and I’m excited that my guest today is the perfect person to talk about that. Adam Serwer is a staff writer at The Atlantic, where he spent nearly a decade covering the intersection of race, power, and American democracy.

If you’ve heard people using the phrase, “The cruelty is the point,” those are Adam’s words. It was the title of his now iconic 2018 essay about Donald Trump’s strategy, and then a book on the subject. And Adam has been one of the most important voices helping us understand what is actually happening in this country and why.

He’s thought extensively about reparations, and I’m really honored to have him here with us. Adam, welcome to Undistracted. Thank you so much for being here.

Adam Serwer: Thank you so much for having me.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: So listen, we’re doing, um, a few conversations on reparations, and we absolutely had to talk to you. But before we start this conversation, I have to ask you what we ask everybody.

How are you doing today in three words?

Adam Serwer: This is- This is always a challenge … why is this such a hard question to answer? Mm-hmm. Um, I’m doing great. How about that?

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: I’m doing great. You know, I appreciate the positivity, but you have to tell me why it took you a second, why you hesitated.

Adam Serwer: Um, I’m feeling a, a little overwhelmed by, you know, everything that’s happening in the world.

N/A: Mm-hmm.

Adam Serwer: On the other hand, um, you know, I’m very grateful for my wife and my children, so-

N/A: Yeah …

Adam Serwer: you know, it’s, it’s tough Uh, you know, it’s tough not to be thankful in some sense. Mm-hmm. And, and in a weird way, m- I mean, maybe it’s not weird. Um- … you know, everything horrible happening, uh, elsewhere in the world is sort of a reminder to be thankful of the stuff that’s- Mm

going right for you, so.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm. Perspective matters, and gratitude is a perspective giver, for certain. Before we dive into the reparations of it all, let’s keep talking a little bit about this current moment, because you’ve spent nearly a decade at The Atlantic writing about some of the most shocking and really unconventional stories of our political moment, from Trump, um, and birthright citizenship to the ongoing attack on voting rights.

You really did coin the phrase, “The cruelty is the point,” and helped us characterize exactly what we’re facing so often these days. Given how much has happened, is there a story, um, from this second Trump term that you think is flying under the radar? Something that you’re still processing that’s not getting the kind of attention that it deserves.

Adam Serwer: I, I wouldn’t say it’s going under the radar- Mm-hmm … but I really do think, uh, you know, I wrote a piece early in the Trump administration called The Great Resegregation.

N/A: You did.

Adam Serwer: And basically m- my argument was that, you know, uh, the Trump, the pe- the ideologues who run the Trump administration have been infuriated, they’ve been angered by- Mm

the slight level of integration that has occurred in elite spaces. Mm-hmm. And I say slight because when you look at the metrics in terms of, like, housing, schools, jobs, things really haven’t budged that much in terms of i- integration since the ’90s. But if you look at, like, Congress, Congress has gotten a lot more diverse.

Um, you know, uh, in show business, you know, there are m- you know, there were, uh, you know, more Black writers, more Black characters, more Black- Yeah … showrunners. In the media, you know, there were more, uh, Black figures, especially in elite spaces, at a time when, you know, the industry itself was largely collapsing.

And s- and, and so, like, w- what was left is sort of these elite jobs with a lot of competition, um, where some white people became very resentful of what they felt like jobs that they were entitled to going to people, uh, who were supposed to be subjects of journalism rather than- Right … you know, its authors.

Um, and the Trump administration has been using the power of the federal government essentially to reverse the gains of this, uh, this civil rights movement. Mm-hmm. Now, they’ve had a lot of help with that from the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court, you know, is arguably going to be, in terms of, like, the long-term threat, the bigger issue going forward.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah.

Adam Serwer: Um, but you look at things like they’re doing, like, you know, suing colleges over their classes being too diverse. Um, that is a backdoor racial quota, and that’s the kind of thing that I said they were going to do. Um, but essentially what they want is they wanna take this, um, level of elite integration that occurred, this sort of…

Uh, uh, I don’t wanna understate it or overstate it. Mm-hmm. It was real. It was small, but it was real. Um, and they wanna reverse that. They want- Yeah … to protect elite spaces and make them as white as possible again. If they have to, um, utilize a few tokens to do that, they will, as long as those tokens are on board with that project.

Um, and I think they are using the tremendous influence of the federal government to essentially make that happen. I mean, if you are, you know, an employer or a college and you’re worried you might get sued by the government- Mm-hmm … because your workforce or your student body is too diverse, the easiest thing to do is just not to hire anybody who isn’t white.

And they know that, and they know that that’s what they’re doing. I mean, you look at… And this is occurring especially, I think, when you look at something like DOGE. Uh, you know, because of widespread discrimination in the private sector, public sector anti-discrimination protections were, you know, a big part of building the Black middle class in the second- Yep

half of the 20th century.

N/A: Yeah.

Adam Serwer: Um, and so, you know, uh, these attacks on all these government jobs which didn’t actually save any money hit a lot of… You know, they hit a lot of Black people. They hit a lot of Black women in particular. Uh, you know, you look at the military, another big engine of the, of the construction of the Black middle class in the latter half of the 20th century.

Um, and you know, Pete Hegseth is literally going through- … and trying to prevent women and Black people from being promoted when he can. Um- Yeah … and, you know, that kind of stuff is about pr- preventing um, you know, a Black elite class that can advocate for Black interests. We’ve had a lot of conversations about the perils of thinking that representation is sufficient.

Mm-hmm. um, and I think that that’s, that’s a perfectly good conversation to have. But when we’re talking about things that may seem silly, things like, you know, why is there a Black Little Mermaid, or why are there Black hobbits, whatever, these, these conversations may sound silly, but what they’re actually about is labor.

That’s right. You know, you’re talking about jobs. You’re talking about people- That’s right … getting jobs. And the fact that they are in a creative industry, you know, maybe y- you know, you’re an adult, you’re like, “I’m not gonna go see The Little Mermaid,” and that’s fine.

N/A: Yeah. But,

Adam Serwer: you know, number one, t- to…

these are Black people, Black creatives who are getting jobs because of work like this.

N/A: Mm-hmm.

Adam Serwer: Uh, and number two, I think people, um, especially in children’s content, can underestimate the extent to which children are, you know, shaped by what they see. And if- Absolutely … what they see is exclusively white people-

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: That’s right

Adam Serwer: um, they’re going, you know, Black children are going to get the sense that they are not normal and feel ashamed of- Mm-hmm … who they are, and that’s something that as a parent you can try to counteract.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah.

Adam Serwer: But if the world is speaking in that one singular voice, it can be very difficult. This use of federal government authority to pressure employees, colleges, and ultimately creative industries to exclude Black people as students, as workers, um, you know, and as leaders, is, is something really important.

I think it’s gonna have, uh, you know, pretty big downstream effects.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: We’re talking about shaping a society, right? Mm-hmm. Can I, as a Black child, see myself in any of these places or not? Can you, as a white child, see Black children or Black people in any of these places, roles, as your boss- As belonging in those places, yeah

manager, as belonging in those places, as your president? Is that possible for you? Because if it f- if it’s d- if you never see it, not only does it feel impossible, it feels wrong to you in some kind of way. Mm-hmm. Right? Which I think, honestly, is a perfect segue into this conversation about reparations because there are so few people, it seems, who are able to imagine the idea of repair for enslaved Black people and their descendants in America and the Americas.

And I really wanna talk about how reparations fits into this moment Adam, if we keep it a buck, there are people who are listening who may feel like reparations is a great idea, but also the house is on fire, so like why are we talking about this right now? We gotta turn people out to vote. There’s so many other things on the plate.

How do you define reparations, and how do you think it fits into this larger landscape of incredibly pressing, urgent issues?

Adam Serwer: The simplest and perhaps broadest framework for understanding it has, you know, been put forth by Sandy Darity, who argues- Mm-hmm … you know, for cash payments for victims of, uh, specific things like slavery, like discrimination under the, you know, things like the GI Bill, the- Mm-hmm

the, the big New Deal reforms that, um, excluded Black people but were essentially the, you know, engine of prosperity, uh, for the American middle class in the mid-20th century. Um, you know, and I think it can get complicated when you talk about slavery because, uh, you know, there are obviously a lot of Black people in America who have suffered discrimination, but they may, their families may have come later.

Um- Mm-hmm … so, you know, obviously, you know, if your family was enslaved in Jamaica rather than the United States and then you move to United States after emancipation, you know, you may have faced- Right … a different kind of discrimination. But it’s all rooted in the same thing. I mean, when we talk about, you know, I, I don’t know how many, um, you know, cases in New York, for example- Mm

that have involved, uh, you know, police shootings of Black people, unjustified police shootings, and those people were not necessarily African American as we think of the term. That is, you know, uh, Black people who are descended from people who were enslaved in the United States, but they were still Black, and the cops- Yeah

you know, they don’t check to see, you know, when people discriminate against Black people in the United States- No … they’re not like, “Are you, but are you Nigerian?” “But are you, are you from Jamaica?” Can you speak a little Pidgin for us? That’s not You know what I mean? Like y- you know, th- that’s just, that’s not, that’s not the way it works.

Um, so I think it, it, it does become a sort of complicated question. I, I do think ultimately it’s an issue of political will. Is there a will to do this thing?

N/A: Yeah.

Adam Serwer: Um, and I think if, you know, at the point that there becomes a will to do it, um, it becomes a lot easier. Um, you know, a- a- and I think to some extent, uh, part of the issue right now is we’re living through obviously, um, a sort of…Hell

almost redemption level backlash-

N/A: Mm-hmm …

Adam Serwer: to 2020, to Black Lives Matter, where, you know, people are almost Uh, you know, y- y- y- you see what ha- what’s happening on sort of Elon Musk propaganda Network X and the way- Mm-hmm … that is influencing things, you know, not just in the United States, but around the world, mainstreaming sort of a global segregationist ideology w-

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah

Adam Serwer: which holds that, like, certain countries, you know, especially European countries are sort of the, um, collective property of- Mm-hmm … white people, and you are assaulting them with your presence if you are not white. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, I, I think we’re sort of in a very dangerous moment, um, for, uh, for, for minority rights, but not just, you know, minority- ethnic minorities in these communities because ultimately authoritarianism is about, I mean, as, as we saw in Minnesota with Renee Good and Alex Pretti, you know, when the government decides you are outside of that sphere of protection- Right

it can kill you just as easily.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah.

Adam Serwer: Um, even if you don’t fit that category of other that they’re trying to define in, in some way. Um, but yeah, I mean, I, I, I think it sort of depends what, um, what specific, w- reparations for what specific act of discrimination you’re talking about.

N/A: Mm-hmm.

Adam Serwer: Um, uh, but, uh, you know, uh, the way Darity has talked about it is he’s talked about it as a mean- he’s sort of calculated it cumulatively through the racial wealth gap because he sees that as r- you know, I, I, hopefully I’m, I’m saying this correctly, but he sees that as representing the sort of cumulative effect-

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: You’re

Adam Serwer: right

of discriminatory actions against Black people in the United States over time.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Which is always relevant. Mm-hmm. I’m thinking 12 years ago, um, another stalwart void on- voice on this, Ta-Nehisi Coates, in 2014 publishes the now famous The Case for Reparations also in The Atlantic. And you were working at MSNBC at the time.

Um, and you were one of the really early voices point- pointing out that you felt like people were really misreading this piece. Um, that it wasn’t primarily about slavery, but about the deliberate ways that public policy has kept Black Americans, um, and Black people in America out of wealth building, as you just shared, um, particularly through housing discrimination.

What was the misunderstanding that you felt like people had, and why is that reframe that you and Darity and Coates point out so important?

Adam Serwer: So I, I wanna point out that, a- and you can go back and you can look at Ta-Nehisi’s writing on his blog, that he was initially very skeptical of the idea of reparations.

He doesn’t, you know, he doesn’t start- Mm-hmm … out, you know, convinced this is a good idea. But, but the way he comes to it, I think a lot of people are like, “Well, slavery was a long time ago.” But then when you understand everything that happened after slavery, the case starts to make- Right … a lot more sense.

When you talk about convict leasing, Jim Crow segregation, the fact that the United States was not really a full democracy until 1965, uh, where, you know, Black people everywhere in the country could vote. Um, you know, the, the, the, the fact that discrimination, uh, on the basis of race in, in employment was not illegal until 1964.

Mm-hmm. School segregation was not illegal until the 1950s. So i- this, i- you know, it’s not really about slavery, it’s about things that happened within the lifetime of, you know, your parents or grandparents. Uh- Yeah … depending on how you look at it. Um, you know, my mother, uh, you know, uh, could recall traveling on the Jim Crow car from Florida to New York- Yeah

when her parents moved to the North so that her and my uncle did not have to go to segregated schools in Florida. Um, and so, you know, that’s within our lifetime. That’s right. Uh, not my lifetime, but, like, within the lifetime of people who are alive today. Slavery is a part of the story, but the point is that this did not end in 1865 or 1867.

Um, it persisted for a very long time, and now, you know, whatever progress has been made-

N/A: Yeah …

Adam Serwer: has become an excuse to dismantle, uh, that progress, um, you know, and make sure that, uh, you know, people ha- people who want to discriminate are- Mm-hmm … are able to do that if they feel like it. I mean, if you look at- Yeah

the Supreme Court’s recent Voting Rights Act, uh, rulings, not just, uh, Louisiana v. Callais but, you know, its follow-up on the shadow docket, they’re essentially saying, “Well, if you have a partisan reason for wanting to discriminate against Black people- Right … in voting, then it’s okay.” And it’s like, well, then what, what was the point of the 15th Amendment?

Because at the time- Right … it was adopted, you know, the, y- you know, Democrats, white supremacist Democrats did not want Black Republicans to vote. Mm-hmm. It was a partisan interest. Mm-hmm. And so their standard, as applied today, would not have stopped, you know, the, the devices that were used to implement essentially a form of racial apartheid in the South.

Um, so, you know, uh, uh, it’s, um- You know, it’s, uh, I think it’s always important to remember when people talk about reparations that we’re not just talking about slavery, although that’s an, an important part, part of the story. Absolutely. They’re talking about discrimination that persisted into the middle of the 20th century and, and really shaped the economy, um, you know, uh, a- as it functions even in the present.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: What then do you say to people who are like, “Well, a lot of people got discriminated against in that era,” right? That it was not just Black people who were experiencing discrimination, um, in the nearly 90 years that Jim Crow was the law of the land or beyond then. What about folks who think we’re just opening up Pandora’s box when we frame reparations in that way?

Adam Serwer: I mean, I think, uh, uh, potentially that’s true. I think the question is, you know, do you set up a criteria that allows people to get redress for specific wrongs? Mm-hmm. And if you do that, uh, then you avoid the Pandora’s box. You know, to some extent, you know, you look at something like, you know, the, the PPP loans during COVID.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Like, a lot of people got money through that that they shouldn’t have gotten, but nobody really gets mad about that because the people who got- who would normally get mad about that- Mm-hmm … very much supported PPP loans. Um, so I think to some extent, yes, I do think it’s a problem, but I think there’s, you know, it’s not, it’s not the biggest problem.

It’s something that you can figure out, uh, in order, uh, through the claims process to make sure that you have, that people are meeting eligible criteria. Mm-hmm. Um, I think people say that because they, um, simply don’t like the idea. Um- Yeah … and, and I think, you know, what, what, what, what Sandy Darity says when he, when he has written about this is just like, “Look, if you think you have a claim against the US government for discrimination or for some wrong that they committed against you, then you should make that claim.”

Um, you know- That’s right … my focus is this. But, like, you know, i- if, if the US government did something wrong to somebody, they should probably redress that regardless of- Mm-hmm … what the issue is. Um, and so when you put it like that, it, it seem, you know, the objections can seem a little, um, petty. Um-

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah …

Adam Serwer: I think especially in a context where the president, the current president of United States is, uh, trying to get reparations for people who tried to overthrow the government on his behalf.

And there’s a lot of resistance to that, okay? I, I don’t wanna u- understate it, but- Yes … but the fact that-

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yes …

Adam Serwer: um, it went down fine with the people who would normally object to reparations for an actual wrong- Reparations as an idea … that was committed. Yeah, yeah.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm-hmm.

Adam Serwer: Um, I think- Yeah … is kind of interesting

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Well, let’s say, let’s say we effectively move those people out of the way, and we finally prepared America’s appetite to really have this conversation in a thoughtful way.

Let’s say, um, you know, that, that people are listening and they’re ready to open up their eyes and ears about this. We’ve got some examples, uh, of truth and reconciliation processes from South Africa, Canada, Germany. What are the lessons we should be learning from other countries about what worked well and what didn’t, frankly?

Adam Serwer: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, in the, in the case of Canada, it was, like, very specific, right? It was a specific- Mm-hmm … it was specific people from a specific region who had gone through the, the schools, um, you know, where they had experienced all these horrible things. And I think that kind of specifici- specificity is the way to do it because it can alleviate the sense that, you know, people are getting away with something.

And when you de- define the harm in a very specific way, I think it makes it clear that, you know, this isn’t just about handouts, it’s about fixing s- a problem that the government itself c- created.

N/A: Right.

Adam Serwer: Um, I think, you know, obviously, uh, you know, Ta-Nehisi discussed, uh, Germany’s Holocaust reparations in his essay.

Mm-hmm. Um, the South African issue is more complicated because they’ve really sort of never been able to do it on a large scale. And I think in some, in some ways the issue there is really the lack of promise fulfilled after the end of apartheid because- Mm … you know, a lot of the, you know, Black majority in South Africa still lives in pretty bad conditions.

There has been- Right … you know, an integration of the elite, um, somewhat, but the, for, for, like, you know, the vast majority of people, a, a lot of their lives have not changed significantly- Yeah … in terms of poverty. Um, and I think, um, you know, I think South Africa is also different because while they are a, you know, a, a pretty wealthy country, they are not the wealthiest country in the history of the world, uh, which is what the United States is.

Um- Yeah … and so I think that, you know, it’s a, it’s, it’s, it’s kind of a different issue. A- and I don’t know, um- You know, I think, uh, i- if you, if, if you read a book like Howard French’s Born in Blackness, which is about the construction- Mm-hmm … of the Atlantic world, I, I think it’s really fascinating because it really, um, explains the extent to which, you know, European breakout, Western prosperity, the Atlantic world is really built on Black labor.

Mm-hmm. Um, and the, and the wealth that Black labor created. Um, you know, even things like the mass production of sugar making- Yeah … coffee and tea more popular. Yeah. Y- y- you know what I’m saying? Because now- Mm-hmm … you could sweeten it. Uh, y- y- it, it, it’s just, it’s really, um, you know, it’s a, it’s, it’s a, it’s an incredible thing to think about.

Or like, you know, the, the depopulation of the West African mainland as a result of the incentivization of, you know, uh, Black nations enslaving their opponents, uh, in order to sell those people to-

N/A: Yeah …

Adam Serwer: uh, you know, uh, w- w- white people so that they could bring them abroad to Brazil or, or to the United States.

But yeah, I mean, I think it’s a, it’s, it’s a complicated question because on the one hand… I mean, I think the thing that you learn from it is that you wanna be very specific. I think- Yeah … the thing that y- that’s hard to learn from it is simply the fact that the US has more money than all of these places and can afford to do more, um, in terms of a- addressing, um You know, a-addressing specific issues of harm caused by the US government.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Absolutely. We can afford it. Before I let you go, listen, in the group chats that we, uh, are in and the places we occupy, I know for sure that you are a realist. But- Mm-hmm … I don’t think people realize that reparations is actually happening in the US in some places, albeit very, very slowly. I’m thinking of Evanston, Illinois, where they distributed over $3 million, up to $25,000 per person, for their Black residents who faced housing discrimination.

Do examples like that bring you any hope at all? Or do you think that this is a really, really long fight?

Adam Serwer: Uh, I mean, I think it’s a really, really long fight, but I do think that, you know, local governments addressing specific instances of discrimination that occurred under their authority, I think is, like, a- actually a pretty good model.

I mean, obviously they’re not the federal government. Mm-hmm. They can’t, um, y- you know, they don’t have that kind of money. States cannot, you know, spend the way that the federal government can, uh, and, and certainly municipalities can’t. But I think, you know, again, the issue c- always comes down to specificity.

If, if you’ve done a specific wrong, address, doesn’t… You know, addressing that specific wrong is simply justice.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm.

Adam Serwer: Um, so you know, i- i- i- i- to the extent that local communities are able to get that kind of justice, I mean, I think that’s definitely something to be hopeful about.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah. Are you at all hopeful about this Supreme Court docket coming up?

Adam Serwer: Uh, I’m not hopeful about it, I gotta tell you. I mean, I think, you know, in the a- I mean, one of the things that happened in the aftermath of Reconstruction was that, you know, the Supreme Court essentially wrote the Reconstruction amendments out of the Constitution, the 13th, 14th, 15th Amendment, um, with the, you know, except for corporations, of course.

Mm-hmm. Um, except for, like, commercial interests. Uh, they occasionally found that, you know, it was violating those amendments to force them to have, like, you know, limited working hours or, or, or proper working conditions or whatever. But, you know, that, the context in which that happened was one in which, you know, with the withdrawal of the Union Army from the South, the Civil War amendments were basically unenforceable because you had a countryside that was controlled by armed white terrorists.

N/A: Mm-hmm.

Adam Serwer: So, you know, the, the, the, the, the most charitable argument you could make for the post-Reconstruction court was, like, they… Even if they had reached the right decisions, there was no way- Yeah … that they were able to enforce them. What the Roberts Court is doing is something much worse, which is they are taking these amendments, and they are repealing them when there is the will and the capacity to enforce anti-discrimination laws, simply because they think people should be allowed to discriminate, and that the real racism is when you ban discrimination.

Um, and so, you know, th- this is, I think, a court that has, you know, a certain level of narcissism in its belief- Mm … that it understands the Constitution even when it gets it flatly wrong to a degree that, like, uh, you know, they have some sort of spiritual connection with the Founding Fathers that allows them to properly understand what the, you know, exactly what their intent should’ve been, even if, you know, uh, even if it contradicts exactly what they said at the time.

And so, you know, they’re just gonna re- rewrite the Constitution to be whatever they want it to be, um, despite, you know, claiming, you know, to have this sort of system of constitutional interpreta- interpretation that is capable of divining- … uh, the precise will of the Founders, you know, except in the Civil War amendments, when they just ignore the Framers.

You know, when you look back and you look at, like, John Bingham and Charles Sumner and Thaddeus Steve, like, you know, these guys were, quote-unquote, “woke.” By society’s standards By the times, yeah You know what I’m saying? They w- they were really, you know… They talked about, like abolishing, um, the electoral college.

I mean, Sumner’s like- Mm-hmm … “We don’t even need the 15th Amendment because the Constitution guarantees every state a republican form of government, and therefore you cannot discriminate on that basis at all.” Uh, you know, so i- this, um, you know, this idea that w- w- w- what they meant when they adopted the 15th, uh, 15th Amendment was, and said no d- racial discrimination in voting, what they meant was actually you can discriminate if you wanna be a partisan, is just complete nonsense.

Um, so if they’re willing to do that, I just don’t think there’s really a limit on what they’re willing to do beyond, you know, their sort of own, th- their sort of own intellectual idiosyncrasies. Like S- you know- Yeah … Neil Gorsuch, when he starts writing about Native American rights, all of a sudden you know, he, he, he really seems to get it.

Uh, but other than that- … you know, um, you know, I think it’s, it’s really j- the only limit is like what gets the, what gets the majority of votes. Otherwise, they could do- Yeah … whatever they want.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Okay, so you have no hope, or should we just cry into our yogurt? Is that like

Adam Serwer: the message? No, no. I, I, honestly, no. I think what needs to happen, you know, i- if, if you are unhappy with the direction of the Supreme Court, uh, you know, people need to make that clear to their representatives.

N/A: Mm-hmm.

Adam Serwer: Um, and they need to push, you know, otherwise pretty squeamish institutionalist Democrats- Yeah … towards court reforms that are either going to curtail the power of the court or limit the influence of its radical majority. Yeah.

N/A: Yeah.

Adam Serwer: Um, because what they’re doing is dismantling the building blocks, the cornerstones of multiracial democracy in the United States.

Um, and, and, you know, uh, I wrote about this, you know, s- s- five, six years ago. The issue is not that they’re reaching a, you know, that they are coming to policy conclusions that I don’t like. The issue is that they are interfering with the ability of the people of the United States to govern themselves.

N/A: Mm.

Adam Serwer: If you look at like a, a Supreme Court ruling that says, “Oh, if Alabama wants to draw its districts in such a way to remove all Black influence from policymaking, it can do that,” uh, I mean, like obviously that’s not what the people who wrote the Fou- 15th Amendment intended, but also like that is not about, like policy differences.

That, that’s not about like my views on abortion or your views on abortion or your, my views on taxation- Right … or your views on taxation. That is about you depriving the people of the United States of their right to a republican form of government.

N/A: Yeah.

Adam Serwer: Um, and so, you know, stuff like that I think it, it, it is different from, you know, policy issues that I feel, uh, very strongly about.

Um, you know, uh, uh, on a fundamental level, the Supreme Court has become a threat to American self-governance, and to the- Yeah … to the extent that people wanna change that, they need to press their elected representatives to do something about it. Now, I don’t… You know, when I say, you know, I’m not, I don’t have any hope for the court, uh, in terms of- Yeah

like them suddenly changing their minds. Yeah. But they are not the last word on what the Constitution means. The people are the last word- Hello … on what the Constitution means, and they can make a different decision from the court, and they can press their representatives to make a different decision from the court.

Um, so, you know, I wouldn’t say hope is lost, but it, it is up to the, the public, to the people, uh, to, to demand something different.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: If we gonna have hope, it’s ’cause we got active. Adam, thank you so much for joining us here on Undistracted. Thank you so much for having me. For really breaking this down and making it clear for folks.

Um, and I hope all of you all out there are reading everything Adam writes because you absolutely should. Um, we’ll definitely be catching up with you really soon.

Adam Serwer: Thank you so much for having me.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: All right, y’all. I’m joined once again by our Untrending group chat bestie for our Untrending News. He is the CEO and executive director of the National Black Justice Co- Collective.

Nope, I was about to say coalition. You called it before. That’s old work. It is old. Collective is new, okay? You got it. You got it. Fresh off of Equity Week, uh, my friend and yours, Dr. David Johns. How you doing, boo?

Dr. David Johns: I’m excited to be here, excited to be on the other side of a wonderful Equity Week. If you missed it, save the date the week of June 9th next year, 2027, be there.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Incredible, especially the ball. I mean- Everything … the legislating, the, the press conference, the lobbying, all of that is critically important. And baby, we have ourselves a time at the Howard Theater, okay?

Dr. David Johns: And did a movie because we deserve joy, yes.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: That we deserve joy, baby. It is a revolution when it’s on us, okay?

So David, you’ve been helping to push bills that could finally initiate reparations in Congress for a while now. Just last week, during Equity Week, we were both at a press conference to uplift the fact that Congresswoman Ayanna Pressley, our homegirl, is now taking over championing H.R.40, um, also known as the Commission to Study and Develop Reparations Proposals for African-Americans Act.

Shout out to John Conyers, the very longtime champion of that, may he rest. Also your frat, yes, as it were. Um, this bill, um, in, he introduced, he introduced that bill every single year when he was in Congress for 28 years from 1989 to 2017 when he passed away. And as the title suggests, it would establish a commission to actually analyze and study the harms that have been done, um, and is generally seen as a first step toward getting a national level reparations package approved.

LaTosha Brown’s speech especially gave us chills. Doug, roll the clip

N/A: I want to start in the spirit of the ancestors that not too long from, far from here, that on this ground on the Capitol, the same Capitol that this administration has created a slush fund that they wanna pay those that sought to destroy it. But those that actually built it, that were my ancestors, never got paid.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: So listen, even though the speeches were fire, um, we know that that’s not gonna be enough, even though it should be. We know that it’s… It’s honestly hard to imagine this bill passing in today’s Congress, especially if it didn’t pass all that time that Mr.

Conyers was putting it forward. Why do you think it’s still important that we use whatever limited time and resources we have on an initiative like this? ‘Cause people are like, “It’s a whole lot of other stuff to pay attention to, girl. Like, Trump is out here throwing cage matches. Why reparations?”

Dr. David Johns: I, I have, I, I love the question, um, and I have three answers.

Um, I think the first and most important is that, um, every issue, uh, connected to a policy problem or that we would otherwise name as important- Mm-hmm …

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: to

Dr. David Johns: address because of how it affects us existing as humans in a social order, every ill that we are continuing to suffer from would be addressed by reparations.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Hello?

Dr. David Johns: For folks who, who can’t understand this, I encourage you to go to, in addition to listening to Undistracted, go to Teach the Babies. The previous episode by the time this airs features a conversation with Dr. Marcus Anthony Hunter. Yes. He talks about like what would happen if we all, um, accept that every ill that all of us are dealing with-

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm-hmm

Dr. David Johns: regardless of our socially constructed identity types, is a result of slavery. Mm. Um, if we ex- if we, uh, uh, c- could conceive of that, um, as a plausible, um, question for us to grapple with, then a possible and plausible solution would be reparations, um, all forms of it, given that reparations, um, is deserved for the many forms of harm that were committed against, um, African people-

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: That’s right

Dr. David Johns: and those who were otherwise affected by this racial hierarchy. The second thing, very much related to your beautiful, historic, contextually appropriate introduction or framing of this, is that this bill, H.R.40, is the m- the bill that the CBC has carried and introduced every Congress- Every Congress … for the long- for the longest.

It is the, the, the, the bill that they have had the longest, um, uh, heretofore. Um, and that should tell us that if the Conscience of the Congress, I have this, um, um, uh, cup holder on my desk-

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yes, the Conscience

Dr. David Johns: of the Congress … um, the conscience of Congress, the founding members of the CBC, i- if they thought it important enough to continue to reintroduce this bill- Yeah

in spite of all of the changes, in spite of the party associated with who occupy the Oval Office or were in a position of power, then we should understand the importance of continuing that fight. Absolutely. Um, and then the last thing for me, um, uh, Brittany, is that is, it is because our babies, um, deserve to not only inherit- Mm.

Mm-hmm … um, the reparations that all of us are owed- Yeah … um, and they, they, they deserve to understand the history. And so I was thinking about, um, organizing my, my library. Oh. The importance of our babies knowing the history of Opal Lee, um, the godmother of Juneteenth- Yeah … and of, and the legacy of Lessie Benningfield Randle, the 111-year-old only remaining survivor of the- That’s right

Tulsa Race Massacre, right? In addition to Viola Ford Fletcher, who brought the, the landmark case that they still deserve reparations for. All of us deserve to not only say to those who are still living, uh, Lessie Benningfield Randle included, uh, “We completed the job,” um, but we also deserve to be healed as a result- That’s right

of the reparations that we so very much deserve.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: You know, people always ask this question about why are we talking about this now, put it off, there’s more urgent stuff. How, how long would you be mad- if somebody refused to pay you for your labor, and that you had children, and they had children, and those children had children.

And several generations later, nobody has taken it upon themselves to give you what you are owed- Mm … let alone adjusting it for inflation, while they then profit off of what your labor created. Like, how patient are we supposed to be?

N/A: We’re

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: not. How much longer are we supposed to put it to the side? We’re not.

Because I don’t think anybody watching or listening would be okay with having their labor thieved from them, having that labor be backbreaking, family, uh, family ending, uh, um, uh, i- and, and be endured by every single generation that you’ve borne from your body. I don’t think anybody would be okay with not receiving acknowledgement, repair, recognition, and recompense for that, no matter how long it’s been.

I’m, I’m holding Damario Solomon-Simmons’ book right here- Right … Redeem A Nation. And Damario is a friend of ours, and is the lawyer who, um, among other things, has taken on the fight for, um, reparations for the, the Greenwood Massacre survivors and their descendants, right? Mother Randle, like you said, is 111 years old.

How long is she supposed to wait? Till she’s 112? 113? The fact of the matter is there are plenty of people who are just trying to wait her out.

N/A: That’s right.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: There are plenty of people who are just trying to wait for us to finally stop talking about it. There are enough people who just want us to give up- That’s right

even though we seem to be able to find repair for people who don’t deserve it. Yeah. Because we’re talking about a president who wanted to have a whole slush fund for the people who literally committed domestic terrorism against us and our government on January the 6th.

Dr. David Johns: He still wants it. So- Let’s be clear, he still wants it, and is gonna fight

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: to get it.

And still, that’s right, and is fighting to keep it. So, like, we need to disabuse ourselves of the notion that reparations is an illegitimate request. That’s right. We need to get beyond the idea that it is unimaginable that people be paid for their labor, f- that the repair is made for the multitudes of generations of discrimination that were caused by and led by this government.

And we need to understand, just like you said, David, that so much of what we are dealing with would be solved with reparations. If my granddaddy had just gotten his GI Bill, if our forebearers had just been able to move into neighborhoods that gave them generational wealth and buy those homes- That’s right

right? If the land had been given, if the mule had been given, if the wages had been given, we would be having a fundamentally dis- different conversation about every single social ill in America, not just the ones that impact Black people the most. That’s right. So I, I get frustrated when people are like, “Well, not right now.”

When? Right? As James Baldwin would say, how long do you want us to wait for your progress? David, before we go, let’s, let’s be imaginative, right? ‘Cause clearly I’m, I’m pissed off to the highest level of pissification as one should be- As you should be … about this. As you

Dr. David Johns: should be.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: And it is about opening up our minds enough to be radically imaginative in these moments.

Um, to not just demand that reparations is paid, but to visualize what that life looks like, right? What, what happens once we, once they cut the check? What happens once the repair has begun? What happens, um, and what do we do with what we are owed? So I, I wanna ask you, David, if we were to just wave the wand and reparations was implemented today, they- we both walk out to our mailbox and we get what was owed our ancestors, what are the three things you would imagine would be different about the world we’re living in, say, 20 years from today?

Dr. David Johns: Uh, I love that question, and I’m gonna do something that is uncharacteristic of a grandson of a Black Baptist preacher and not list three. I’m gonna, I’m gonna give you one.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Okay.

Dr. David Johns: So, uh, Friend, remember, uh, go back with me. Remember when Clubhouse was a thing? Um- I would rather

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: forget, but yes,

Dr. David Johns: I remember. Right.

There’s some moments. Uh, and it got us through some really h- hard times. What Steve Paget, I remember, a really brilliant, uh, innovator, said at the time was that it pissed him off that some of the smartest Black and brown people that we know are consumed- Yeah … with ending seemingly intractable problems or ending stochastic or state-sanctioned violence.

That’s what so much of what we are consumed with boils down to, while at the same time that the most mediocre, uh, uh, of white people and those who benefit from whiteness and social construction-

Adam Serwer: Mm-hmm …

Dr. David Johns: are, are frolicking. They are, and have since, uh, gone to the moon. Um, not technically. That credit should stay with the Black man from California who actually did it.

Hello. But point remains- Love him … they are able to frolic. And so what I know is that when the, the, the checks that are overdue-

N/A: Mm-hmm …

Dr. David Johns: um, are delivered to those of us who earned them some time ago- Yeah … and are continuing to as a result of the trauma that we inherited or are continuing to live through, that we would be able to frolic, that we would be able to center joy and-

N/A: Yeah

Dr. David Johns: healing, both individual and collective, and, and the type of healing that allows us to have transformative experiences, um, that include us all getting closer to freedom together. Dr. Marcus Anthony Hunter has written a book to help us in this grounding and unpacking and shifting with regard to what radical reparation is.

Yeah. We love you, Marcus.

N/A: One of the things he says

Dr. David Johns: is that, “We love you, Marcus.” One of the things he says is that reparations is a love letter- Mm … um, to ourselves, to our community, and to our country, and so my hope is that we continue to, to rest in love.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: I love that, and I, you know, I, I’m thinking about back when, back when we watched The Chappelle Show before he took whatever turn he’s taking now.

N/A: Good God, what is going on with that man?

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Um, but I remember, I, maybe his first or second season, ’cause this was when I was in college. I don’t know if you remember it. There was the, there was a sketch about if we got reparations, right? And everybody was, like, fanning their money around, and they’re like, “Oh, you know, it’s poor people around,” and all of the jokes about, like, what Black people would- Yeah

would buy and, um, you know, what, what items would immediately be sold out. But my thing is when we actually look at the data- About what happens, uh, and what has happened in various guaranteed income, uh, pilots, right? Mm-hmm. Where people are given funds, just money, with no strings attached, no agenda, no reporting requirement.

Um, people like our friend Michael Tubbs, who leads Mayors for Guaranteed Income- Mm … helped pilot these kinds of innovations in Stockton, California. Right. Um, CDF has done that work in New York City. What we see is that people finally have the space to go from surviving to thriving- That’s right … and they invest in thriving.

That’s right. They invest in their children’s education, they invest in safe housing- Right … they invest in healthy foods, they invest in all of the things that people need to be well. The truth of the matter is a lot of people do not believe in reparations for Black people in particular because they have assigned a pathology to us that says we cannot be trusted with money.

There are folks who are like, “Well, you gonna go buy out all the Jordans, and you gonna go buy all the big screen-” Mm-hmm “… the flat-screen TVs and da da da da da.” The data doesn’t bear that out. Not only is that racist The data doesn’t bear that out. And so to your point, it can be three things, it can be 10 things, it can be 100 things, but the thing is that I will see folks thriving.

That’s right. And when Black folks in your neighborhoods, and your schools, and your churches, and your synagogues, and your mosques, and your swim clubs, and your golf teams, when they thrive, when we thrive, everybody thrives. We make everybody around us better. Yeah. Um, and our wellness has continuously shown economically, politically, and from a policy landscape that when we do well, and when, when systems support us doing well, then they support everybody doing well.

And it really, really, really, really, really is that simple. And David, this is why we have the group chat so that we can keep it all the way real like this and have these conversations.

Dr. David Johns: And we-

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: I love you. I love you. Thank you for joining us. Always. As always, I know that I appreciate you and so do all of our listeners.

I’ll talk to you- Love

Dr. David Johns: y’all. Read the book. Talk to you

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: soon. Repair is not just for me. It’s not just for my children or my husband, my mama, my granddaddy, or my ancestors. Repair is for all of us. There’s no possible way for us to have a free next 250 years if we’re unable or rather unwilling to examine why the first 250 wasn’t all that free for so many of us.

The social ills that so many of us face each and every day have everything to do with the fact that America isn’t ready to reckon with itself, to fix itself, to look itself in the mirror and decide once and for all that that bright, gleaming example of democracy should actually come to fruition for everybody, that we should actually live up to those ideals and honor those so-called inalienable rights.

Yeah, reparations is not just for me. It’s for you, too. And if we’re not ready to repair, I don’t know what the next 250’s gonna hold. But we’re the ones with the power, so let’s decide now to repair, to begin again, and to build anew. Thanks for listening, thanks for being, and always, thanks for doing. I’m Brittany Packnett Cunningham.

Let’s go get free.

Our executive producers are Cindi Leive and myself, Brittany Packnett Cunningham.

Our producer at Collective Media is Douglas Forte with supervising producer Ryan Jones.

Our supervising producer at The Meteor is Taylor Hosking and artwork is by Bianca Alvarez.

This episode was produced with support from Liberation Ventures and The Meteor Fund.

You can follow me on all social media @mspackyetti and our incredible team @themeteor.