Please note: This transcript has been automatically generated.

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: We don’t wanna fall into that trap and allow people to divide us. If you get a toe in, uh, then bring somebody to help kick o- kick open the door. And then once you get in the room, you wanna be sure not only you’re visible, but you’re vocal.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Hey, y’all. It’s Brittany. So before you see this conversation that I had with two Black women who are absolute heroes of mine, women I’ve long admired and have been blessed to get to know over the past few years, I want us to sit in the reality of the morning in which I’m talking to you, a morning that finds us once again looking at another loss for our sister Cori Bush.

Cori decided to put her hat back in the ring to once again run for the Democratic primary in Missouri’s first district, St. Louis, where I grew up. Y’all know I’m a St. Louis girl through and through, and St. Louis deserves a fighter like Cori. You’ve heard her on this podcast multiple times, and you’ve probably seen me on the ground with her because Cori and I know each other from the Ferguson uprising.

She’s true to this, not new to this. And instead of being the presumptive next congresswoman from Missouri’s first district, she was beaten by the now-incumbent Wesley Bell. And there are a whole lot of conversations to have about who paid for him to be in that seat. There are a whole lot of conversations about how quickly we are willing to believe the lies as long as they come on a nice, bright, shiny commercial.

But the conversation I wanna have today, the conversation I had with our two guests, um, who didn’t even know that this would be the outcome, yeah, that conversation is about Black women and whether or not you all trust us like your little slogans say you do. Because when it comes time for us to be leaders in electoral politics, at the White House, uh, in, uh, faith communities, in the civil rights space, everybody seems to get uncomfortable when Black women lead and lead with clarity, conviction, and values.

Everybody seems to get uncomfortable when it’s time for Black women to actually set the agenda and not just follow the agenda. And no, I’m not talking about every Black woman. I’m talking about Black women who righteously represent us, so many of whom you’ve seen on this podcast, people like Cori and Ayanna Pressley and the two women I’m talking to today.

Yeah, I think we gonna have to deal with that problem ’cause we’re tired of y’all constantly coming to us when you need saving when you never let us set the table in the first place.

Today I’m talking to two women who understand what it means not only to lead, and not only to blaze trails, but to lead institutions

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: that hold us between our current reality and the promises that have yet to be kept. That’s coming up right after this.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: You may have heard me say before I am a radical institutionalist, and today we’re talking all about the institutions that have historically led civil rights fights and produced some of our greatest leaders, and how those institutions are managing in this climate.

We’re bringing together two of the most astonishing, legendary, iconic leaders I know, the kind of women I admire and I look to in my own life, people who have broken ground in fields that are too often built on the backs of Black women without always honoring our leadership. Reverend Dr. Shavon Arline Bradley is the president and CEO of the National Council of Negro Women, one of the most storied civil rights organizations in the country’s history, founded nearly a century ago by the legendary Dr. Mary McLeod Bethune.

An ordained minister and longtime public health and policy leader, Reverend Arline Bradley has spent her career at the intersection of faith and action, from feeding houseless folks to fighting for health equity, all while carrying forward the legacy of Black women building our own institutions.

And Bishop Vashti Murphy McKenzie made history in 2000 when she became the first woman elected as a bishop in the 200-plus-year history of the African Methodist Episcopal Church. She went on to become the first woman to serve as the president of the AME’s Council of Bishops, breaking what she’s called the stained glass ceiling in one of the country’s oldest Black religious denominations.

A former journalist and broadcaster turned preacher, Bishop McKenzie has spent decades modeling what it looks like to transform an institution from the inside out. Together, they represent two different sacred institutional spaces, civil rights and the Black church, that can both be hard places for women to lead, but that remain essential to our freedom work.

So I’m looking forward to talking to them about how they’ve done it and how we need to keep on doing it. Reverend Arline Bradley, Bishop McKenzie, welcome to Undistracted. I’m so glad to have you all here.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Thank you for having us.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Thank you for having us. Oh my goodness. We’ve been working on scheduling this for a minute.

And I was like… I told the team, I said, “We just have the privilege and the advantage of having the people who are doing the work right now. We don’t just have to pick up a book. We don’t just have to look at archival footage. There are folks who are making it happen every single day, and you are two of them.”

So I’m really just grateful to you all making the time. We always start off our conversations the same way, so I wanna ask both of you, and, uh, Reverend Arline Bradley, I’ll start with you. How are you doing today in just three words? Now, I’m asking two preachers for three words, so this is, this is an exciting thing.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: We don’t get, we don’t get three points. We get three words. I’m a three-point preacher. Um- Reflective.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Exhausted.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm-hmm.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Hopeful.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm. Some of those words feel like opposites, but we’ll get into it in a little bit. They are. Bishop

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: McKenzie? Mm. I, and I think I have some, uh, opposites too. Uh, you know, one would be radical, the other would be encouraged, and, uh, the other would be, um, walking the path.

It’s, it’s spiritual. In other words, you know, God and I- Mm-hmm … got a hookup right here, and I’m hanging out right here in that wonderful space. You, and y- Sharron knows what I’m talking… There’s a space where you and God hang out, but I’m listening; He’s talking.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: I’m- Oh, girl. Oh … I’m glad you all are hanging out in that spot, ’cause it’s a whole lot of people who say they’re hanging out in that spot and they’re not.

But I imagine being in that place is how one can hold multiple truths at the same time, and those opposite feelings can exist in the same body while still feeling encouraged and hopeful. Both of you really lead in spaces that frankly have historically been hostile to Black women. The civil rights infrastructure was built on Black women, and then often erases us.

Faith has been built on Black women, and often erases us. When you think about what I like to call the sacred sorority of Black sisterhood, what has that sisterhood done for you, Bishop? How has it, how has it prepared you and held you up when these challenges of moments like this have come?

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: Mm. Well, Brittany, thank you once again for having us today.

Uh, and I, I would say, simply say, uh, that a Black woman knows another Black woman. There’s not another Other person on earth who understands and knows a Black woman. And so that when we are in our sacred sisterhood and, uh, of Black women together, I don’t have to explain anything. Mm-hmm. Uh, I don’t have to say, “No, you, you can touch my skin, touch my hair,” you know, da, da, da.

We, we all in it together. And I know the brothers feel like, “I know her. I… ” Baby, until you carry something for nine months, all right? Until there’s something- My God … there’s still something physically you have to deal with every month, nuh-uh, uh, nuh-uh-uh-uh-uh. You know. Uh, and so, um, it’s just we come together at, in a sisterhood without having to explain ourselves.

We don’t have to prove; we be there. Uh- Mm-hmm … we can speak, uh, when we’re connected in that friendship. Uh, we can speak without judgment. We can- Mm-hmm … ask hard questions. And, uh, is it, “Why you asking? Why you want… ” No, we don’t have to go through none of that. Uh, we can be vulnerable, and at the same time, without losing our strength.

That’s a blessing.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: It is a blessing. I’m curious, Reverend Arlyne Bradley, if there’s a moment or a story where that, for you, where that sisterhood has been so essential to you.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Well, I think, I- Bishop is probably a big part of it. I mean- Mm … what I’m… This screen is pretty funny to me. Um, a lot of- … what I pour into Brittany, I get from Bishop

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Oh, look at, look at that.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: It’s a real triumvirate … of Black woman wisdom … it’s a real thing, ’cause she’ll say, “Good morning,” and I, and I already know she saw it, it didn’t look right. You don’t, you didn’t carry it well; something’s going on. This, right? Yeah. So I think the story is, it’s, it’s multiple stories. It’s the moment when your, your, your big sister knows.

Mm-hmm. What your husband say? Mm-hmm. He didn’t, right? What that little boy do?

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: You look tired. You, is something going on? And I think that there’s that, but then there’s also the story of Big sis. I, something happened; it’s gonna alter my career if we don’t fix it quickly.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: And- Mm-hmm … to not have to worry about the, the newsflash, um, and having that kind of covering.

And I have a number of women that cover me that way.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Um, I have, I have two starting fives. I have a starting five in the secular and a starting five on the, on the, on the faith side. And part of the reason that I do is because every, every sister has a different position in my life.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Right? And there, and, and those two teams of mine are assigned in specific moments.

And I think that what we’ve gotta really be thoughtful about is that Black women in ministry or Black women in civil rights is a synonymous conversation. Yeah. You can’t be in Jesus’ work and not be in justice work.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Hello.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: And then vice versa, you can’t be in justice spaces and not find yourself having to wrestle with the Spirit.

Mm-hmm. And so the stories are continuous, and the stories are daily. Like, that’s the other part. Mm. Like, if someone was lying to you, they don’t say every day; there’s not a moment you’re like, “Ooh, Lord. Jesus.”

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Ooh, Lord. Let me, let me c- after I pray, let me hit up the sister group chat, or perhaps both at the same time.

Actually, every day.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Yeah. Yeah.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah. I, I’m, I’m curious though because Reverend Arline Bradley, you are responsible for a very- Mm … formal formation of that sisterhood, right? I mean, the National- Oh … Council of Negro Women is a legendary organization, but the legacy continues to be created in these moments.

Uh- Yes … and we know that there are, there were many intentional choices that Dr., uh, McLeod Bethune made, that Dr. Height made- Yes … um, that you have made, that, that so many folks have made to make sure that we could be almost 100 years down the road and still have this be a healthy institution. Yes. And then I talk to white women, frankly, or frankly, honestly, just non-Black women who don’t have the group chat, don’t have the prayer call, don’t know what organization to call on, don’t have the kind of formal or informal community that we have been intentional to build.

Mm-hmm. What should they be learning from our sisterhood?

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Mm-hmm. I, I think white women and women that are non-Black should learn that sisterhood is synonymous to spiritual connection.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: I mean, I think one of the beauties of Black womanhood is that it tells many stories. Mm-hmm. It shows up in different forms, different experiences.

And they should also learn that it is not peachy on this side either.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Right? That because of trauma, because of painful places, sometimes Black women are the most difficult to deal with inside of our own spaces. Mm-hmm. And yet I need them and can’t live without them, right?

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: It’s a, it’s a, it’s a bit of an oxymoron to be placed in spaces where…

And I, and I tell you this, this is by condition, that Black women have been so conditioned to be on edge- Mm-hmm. Mm … that the, the ascension of Black women in other spaces or the, or the growth or the, the wins are sometimes hard to swallow when there are personal pains.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: And you find yourself trying to accommodate.

But here’s the beauty of Black womanhood. There’s enough Black women around you that go, “I might’ve had a little inch in my stomach that it didn’t happen for me, but at the same time-” Mm-hmm. “… I thank God that it happened for somebody,” right? Yeah. And so that-

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah …

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: that gives me joy, and I feel like, uh, that m- that is because of our African descent.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm-hmm.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: The descent really shows you that the trek of African women to this nation, there’s something that connects us like no other.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm-hmm.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: And I will tell you something else. Black motherhood- Yeah … like we’re talking with three mothers on this screen.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: And each of us has at least one boy.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Woo.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Which is another conversation.

That’s another, that’s another moment on the screen that we could talk about.

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: Well, that’s the best conversation.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: It’s serious to think that- what it takes to bring these children into the world, and to be ourselves, and to be espoused, and to be in leadership- all that comes with that. And that I, I used to say, this is probably gonna be controversial, but I used to say this, like, sometimes I would say, like, “Man, do white women feel what I feel right now?”

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Cause I would see, like, my white sisters walking the dog at 11:00 AM.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Meanwhile, I’m like on the phone, you know, like, who’s working? Right?

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: What does that look like for me? We would joke about that. Like, “Man, what is it like to be a white woman in the middle of the day?” That’s not every white woman’s experience, no.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm-hmm.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: But because of economic parity, right, there’s been challenges with Black women having that kind of access to be able to make a decision, “I can stay at home full time.” I couldn’t make that decision. Mm-hmm.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: And so I would say that’s what I would ask or consider for other women outside of our community and say, “Listen, the kind of stressors and the kind of, um, requirements of Black women-

Mm-hmm …

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: they supersede anybody I know.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah. Um, yeah. I’m curious, Bishop McKenzie, what do you think we can be doing better by one another- … in this regard? Well, I, I

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: wanna, can I piggyback on

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: where Shambria- Please do.

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: Okay. So, um, you know, I, I would say that that’s how we are, um, are able to relate to each other.

Uh, because no matter where you are, you’re still walking that same multidimensional process. Mm-hmm. We have never had the luxury of having one issue. Mm-hmm. We’re always dealing with- Yeah … multiple issues at the same time. Now, for our, for our sisters, uh, of other hues, uh, I would say learn how to be a sister to a sister.

Mm. Because life looks differently depending upon where you’re standing on the page. Right. If you’re standing in the middle of the text or you’re standing on the, on the margin of the text- Same … life looks very different. And if you have bought into this, um, let’s say, macho, independent, you know- Mm-hmm … “Hey, it’s just me against the world” kinda thing- Mm-hmm

you may have a hard time connecting with others- Mm-hmm … and feeling with others. And so the world looks differently from the point of privilege than from the point- Mm … from the margins. That’s right. Now, what was the question, Brittany?

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: I know you said what was the good word, but, I mean, there are moments to, to what was just shared, where sometimes we’re not doing our best by each other as Black women.

Yeah. How can we be doing better by each other and make sure that this sisterhood is as strong as possible?

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: I’d say be sure, be, be very careful to not let the system divide us. The whole… It always seems that every day in every way, we trying to split y’all up, we trying to divide you. And so we- That’s so good.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: That’s true …

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: we, we, we, we stumble into comparison and competition. There’s only gonna be one of y’all in the room. There’s only gonna be one of you. They’re scared to have two of us and three and four at the same time. Never know what’s gonna happen. Mm-hmm. But we only gonna be one of y’all in the room. And so whoever gets the seat, they’re gonna hold on to that seat as long as they can.

But thank God- Mm-hmm … for our mothers and grandmothers who taught us over and over again, when you get in, make sure you keep the door open for somebody else. Because- That’s right … you need to have somebody else in the room to second your motion. That’s one. And two- Hello … when you decide to retire, there’s somebody else in the room to take up the banner.

So- Yes … you know, you know, you know the old saying, flowers don’t bloom and say a- and compete that my, you know, my color is better than your color. Mm-hmm. My petals are better than your petals. They, they don’t go through none of that. They just, we’re flowers and we’re gonna bloom and, and we’re gonna grow, and then we’re gonna reproduce, and the bees are gonna come along and pollinate us, and we’re gonna go on about our business.

So- That’s

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: right …

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: we don’t wanna fall into that trap and allow people to divide us. If you get to go in, uh, then bring somebody to help kick o- kick open the door. And then once you get in the room, you wanna be sure not only you’re visible, but you’re voi-

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: That you’re visible and vocal, ’cause being seen is not enough, okay?

Mm-hmm. I, I talk about this often because this, this concept of power, I teach on it, I… It’s really central to the book I’m writing about Black women and how we redefine power. But so much of it is about the fact that Black women culturally understand how to share power. We- Yeah … to your power, Bishop, we understand that if I turn on a light in one corner of the room, and I turn on a light in another corner of the room, the entire room gets brighter.

None of the lights get dimmer, right? And that all of us can see better in that brighter room, and that’s what sharing power actually means a- a- and what it looks like. But when we get this, this, uh, white supremacy culture called individualism, we think- Mm … “No, no, no. My light has to be the best light-” Right

the brightest light, the central light, the focus light. It’s gotta have the light with all the colors.” No, no, no, no. We can all shine in this room, and actually, we all need to shine in this room. We need it. ‘Cause that’s the only way everybody’s gonna be able to see. There are, though, for all of the things that we do for one another and the ways that we uphold each other, you’ve said, Reverend Arline Bradley, that Black women are the number one in all the wrong categories.

Pay gaps, maternal mortality, economic precarity. So even as institutions like yours celebrate 90 years of- Yeah … NCNW, how are you looking ahead to ensure that now that you’ve got the keys to the institution, you can do the radical work of making sure that we’re number one in the right categories, knowing full well that there are plenty of powers that don’t want NCNW to exist at all?

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: So I, I will tell you, the r- the reason why we started leaning in on something called the Core Four was because these were the core areas where Black women saw their brightest moments and their most burdensome moments. Hmm.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: So healthcare, economic development, education, and social justice.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: So when I think about healthcare, you know, that’s my background. I mean, it’s public health. I’ve seen the population health diminish. I have been one of the women who dealt with infant mortality because- Mm-hmm … of my losses. But, uh, but I’m one of the most educated patients hospitals have ever seen- Mm-hmm

and yet had the same losses- Mm-hmm … like someone who did not make the same amount of money or someone who did not look like me. Um- Yeah … I think about, um, education, where we are actually the most educated subpopulation in the United States of America. That’s

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: right. That’s right.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: And as economic developments show that we have the highest earning potential, and now have started, uh, the most businesses ever as a united group of people, Black women specifically.

So the beauty of it is most educated. The beauty is more, more businesses than anyone. Mm-hmm. But the burden is no matter the education, no matter the opportunity to earn capital, you’re not getting the capital. Mm-hmm. You’re not being lent the capital. No matter the amount of degrees, you’re still going to be, uh, dealing with issues around redlining.

You’re gonna be dealing with- Mm-hmm … issues of, of, uh, affirmative action right now that is no longer available for us. Mm-hmm. So you may have all of the degrees and not be given the opportunity. And social justice is really probably deeper for me because I think about this: 92%. We’ve been touting it for two years.

Hmm. And in actuality, over 60% of Black women voted in the election. 92% of them voted for Kamala Harris. Hmm. Hmm. And yet, still there’s a 33% gap of Black women voters that’s still there.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Most checked in, and yet a gap. Mm-hmm. And so what I would offer is that NCNW realized we had to do two things.

One, we had to shift the narrative that we’re a revolving door of opportunity for Black women. What does that mean? You can come in through two doors: direct service or direct action. We believe our direct service is the direct programming. I- we have given out over $100,000 in scholarships for Black girls.

Hmm. We have fed families in 10 cities. We have made sure 2,000 children had oral care in dental vans with our partnerships. Why are we doing direct service? Because some sisters need a gap closed there.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Some sisters just need the direct support. The job fair we held because now there are 400,000 Black women displaced more than now.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: And we had to create an opportunity with an online job fair where over 1,000 people, uh, I couldn’t believe it, 1,000 Black women on a Zoom trying to hear-

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Mm-hmm. And so we had to create that door, but the other door is the direct action door. This is the door that says to me this: in direct service we say we meet the needs of our people, but direct action is specific.

Mm-hmm. We fight the systems that cause our people to have those very needs.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: And that is the door that says, “No, I’m going to The Hill.” Yeah. “No, I’m going to face you in a hearing. No, I’m going to push legislation. No, I’m going to fight the United States Postal Service- Mm-hmm … for not ensuring that we have our ability to have these ballots taken care of.”

I have to be an institution that answers the needs of Black people.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Because really the mission of the organization is women of African descent, their families, and communities, which means brothers, which means children, which means- yeah… seniors. Yeah. Which is everybody. So that’s how we’ve had to show up.

Um, and to, let me tell you this, Brittany, we also had to fight the mantle of what they thought the brand was.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: And Bishop can tell you, we know it intimately- Mm … that people just knew if you knew Dorothy Height, you heard of NCJW, but you knew her.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: And so we have now been pushing to make sure that people hear NCJW was not just her.

She is in it. Her flesh was in it, and she helped carry for decades. Yeah. But it is my job now to bring another generation in. Our fastest growing age group is 19 to 23.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: I know that’s right.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: And that’s the, that’s, so that’s the answer to it. We had to create ourselves, reinvent ourselves, and hopefully add more continuity to the Black woman’s experience, that this house is your house.

Yeah. The only Black woman’s home on Pennsylvania Avenue, that’s your house.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah. I, I, I love that because I literally changed the subtitle of my book from Black Women Speak to Black Women’s Blueprint For a New Power because we know how to take what we’re given- Whoo … and redefine and reshape and recalibrate it whenever- Yeah

that pivot has to come. Yeah. Bishop McKenzie, you are bodily evidence of the pivot. Uh, and when you took over the National Council of Churches, you said that the church needs to take an active role and that it needed to be, quote, “The moral prophetic voice in every divisive society.” Has there been a moment where you feel like, yes, we made the pivot, we’re finally that moral prophetic voice and we’re using the church’s voice in the way that we should?

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: Uh, I think we’re almost there. I mean, we’re- Mm … right on the edge. We’re right at the door. We’re knocking on the door real hard. Uh, for us, um, N- S- uh, NCC has been known for years as an advocacy, uh, arm. Yeah. Uh, many people don’t know the original Freedom Summer, uh, NCC participated in. Mm-hmm. Sent 200 clergy in the South to help registrate votes, uh, sent students down South, uh, for voter education and empowerment.

Marched in the March on Washington. Um, uh, in fact, w- there was a woman who was a chair of a commission, uh, the religious, uh, commission, uh, who participated in strategizing how to get people from A to B during the March- Wow … on Washington. Uh, and, a, a Black woman at that. Uh, and so what we wanted to do was to add activism with, uh, advocacy.

Mm-hmm. Um, we are generally a, what, what I would call a, uh, top of the stock kind of organization ’cause we work with heads. Mm. We work with bishops and archbishops in 37 different denominations. Mm. Mainline Protestant, historically African American, uh, Orthodox, peacekeeping, uh, Catholic, you know, all of that is in the mix, and all of them represent about 30 million people in 100,000 congregations.

Wow. Um, but, uh, we’re, yes, we’re on the Hill. Yes, we’re talking to power brokers. Yes, we’re talking to the… But, uh, as Shavon says, uh, after we talk, we have to act They have to go together. They have, we have to go together. And so you’ll see us in the field, you’ll see us in marches, you’ll see us organizing marches.

Mm-hmm. We participate in amicus briefs- Mm-hmm … uh, in filing suits, uh, to be sure, to be on the legal side. So we have to not only, uh, talk to the power brokers, we have to be in the street with the people. We have to find ways to open doors, uh, for them, uh, to have the right information, uh, to make the right choices.

Now, for NCC, we also prepare, uh, the material for pastors and congregations. Mm. We have voter, a vo- um, a Voice Matters, a voting guide- Mm-hmm … where you can find your polling place. You can find it if you’re still registered. You can register to vote. You can re-register. Um, seven different ways in how to have difficult conversations with friends and families, ’cause we know that- Oh, that’s good

people are having a hard time with that. Then, of course- Mm-hmm … the prayers and scriptures that pastors can use in sharing, uh, with their congregation. What the IRS says you can do and cannot do, so everybody is in compliance and not afraid, “Ooh, if I say this, and if I do this, and if I do this, I’m gonna be in jeopardy.”

So we provide resources. Mm-hmm. Curriculum guides, home study, all of the material so that busy pastors will have just the right information at hand.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah. Yeah.

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: So you work- it’s called working 24/7. That’s what it means.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: That’s what it really means. That’s what, that should be the sub-subtitle of my book, Black Women- yes, it should be

Working 24/7. So there’s advocacy, there’s direct action, there’s direct service that both of your organizations are doing so much of proactively in service of our communities. And I recognize that we are in a moment where unfortunately there’s a lot to react to- Yeah … that is coming out of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, down the street from the NCNW building, no less And I’m grateful for how continuously outspoken you have both been and the bodies that you lead have been.

I mean, NCNW was right outside of the Blacksonian, as we lovingly call it, fighting against the attacks on African American history, fighting the federal layoffs that we know have been hitting Black women. You’ve been talking about what it felt like to see Black Lives Matter Plaza in DC be painted over.

Bishop McKenzie, you’ve, you all have frequently released statements from the AME Council of Bishops condemning this administration’s behavior, um, especially around militarized violence in our communities and in communities abroad. You all are outspoken and intentional, which makes you a target. Yes.

And these institutions are Black-governed and self-funded- Ma’am … which also makes you a target. And so from both of you really, I’m wondering, and, and Reverend Arline Bradley, I’ll start with you, how have you been preparing for the attacks and targeting that you know will come? Or frankly, how have you taken on the targeting that has already come?

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Yeah. I think, uh… You know what’s been interesting? I get a lot of the targeting when I speak prophetically about the Lord in this space.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: I think when I, when I came on board, we knew that we were gonna get targeted, if you wanna call it that. But then it, it got deeper when I’d be in certain pulpits or when I’d be in certain spaces.

Mm-hmm. And then the building in and of itself, in and of its proximity to the White House and the US Capitol, and yes, next to the courthouse where the current president was literally going through his court cases, the amount of scrutiny around our space- yeah… became real. Um, how am I preparing for it? I mean, you can’t really prepare a lot for some of this stuff.

I mean, you do the security protocols, but you gotta pray. I mean, I literally have to-

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: I at night cover my son. I’m, I’m, oh, I still got the oil. I, I cover the house. Yeah. I cover the building. Um, because part of it is having a great team and a quality security global. Shout out to Noel and team. They are an amazing team.

But, and I also have to govern myself accordingly.

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: Yeah.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: I have to make sure I know what I’m saying and who’s in the audience. And then when I don’t know who’s in the audience, when the hecklers come, when the people approach you- Mm-hmm … when there are angry people around you, when there are… And it’s not just white people, it’s people of all- Mm-hmm

experiences. Because everybody Black is not for you, too. It’s like it’s a hard thing to deal with.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: But there are some folks who are anti-Black who are Black.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: And we don’t discuss that often because we don’t feel like it’s a real thing. But when you’re in these public spaces, you find out that everyone is not for you. So it’s been the protocols, traveling with folks that understand your movements, and then it has also been making an investment in the technology and the security that we need. Um, making that clear to an organization that has not really had to deal with that. That’s been tough.

And I, folks know I come from the NAACP. Yeah. So we, we grew up in FBI calls and, you know, all

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: of that. You said, “I know what COINTEL- Yeah … COINTELPRO looks and sounds like.” I know exactly. Yeah. I’m like, “

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Wait, don’t y’all see him coming down the street? I see him.” But yeah, that, that’s the preparation.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah. Yeah.

How about you, Bishop?

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: Well, I would say institutionally we cro- we try to make sure that our I’s are dotted and our T’s are crossed- Yes … uh, in, in that frame way, in that framework. And we know that it can happen, and so we do the s- security protocol. Um, you know, what happens if the knock comes at the door?

Who you call, what you do, you know, all those kinds of things. But you just never know. You just- Mm … um, you know, we have, you know, gotten calls where somebody wants to subpoena this or subpoena that and, and all of that. Yes. But, uh, it goes back to our spiritual process. We are people of first, uh, and our mandate is for justice and peace and unity.

Mm-hmm. And so every day we are striving to bring, um, all the haves together. There’s more than, there’s more than two sides. It’s all the haves- Mm-hmm Because we have people who are very, very conservative, and those who are very, very progressive.

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: Yes, yes. Um, and how, how do we help them find a way to stay at the table? Mm-hmm. And that’s ecumenism. I mean, that’s what NCC does is ecumenism, to be able to help them find, uh, the common ground. That’s why I said NCC is uniquely positioned to bring people to the table to dialogue about difficult positions. And what people don’t know, we’ve been doing that for 30 years.

The institution, NCC, is 75 years old, but for the past 30 years, we’ve had convening tables. Mm. So we have a Jewish-Christian dialogue. Mm-hmm. We have a Muslim, uh, dialogue, Hindu, Muslim, Shiite dialogue. Yeah. And two, three, four times a year they come together, and they talk about the hard issues.

Mm. They build relationships so that when something happens, we are already connected together- Mm … to know like, “Whoa, hold on. I know what you saw on television-” Yeah … “but that’s not true.” Yeah. You know, I’ve been on a call with our, uh, with our, uh, Christian and Muslim, uh, dialogue, and, uh, we were just getting ready to get started on a subject, a topic.

We had a wonderful speaker who was going to be doing something, and, um, uh, the, um, imam comes on and he says, “Hey, I can’t be in the dialogue today. I just got a call from our school, and we have a bomb threat.” Mm. “And I gotta go.” Right. “I have to make sure that 250 students,” or whatever the number was are fine, that they get out, the teachers get out. I gotta go.” So what did we do? I said, “We’re gonna pray for you.” Yeah.

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: We’re gonna, we’re gonna pray for you, and let’s see who else is in your area that we can call- And pray … so they can go and be with you. Relationship matters. It does. Relationship counts all across the whole, the whole field. Now, I recall when I was elected, um, when elected a bishop and, and you don’t… You know, everybody not for you. Now, in the campaign they tell you that they not for you, and then once you get elected, everybody voted for you, right?

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Success has 1,000 parents, right? Yeah.

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: You know, and, and all, and, uh, and all of that. But, um, in the midst of it, I knew that if I spent my entire episcopacy answering the

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: naysayers- Mm.

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: then that’s not what God called me to do. He didn’t call me- Mm-hmm … to spend every day answering the naysayers, and, um, um, putting up scriptures and whatever proof text to, to prove why, why I’m here.

Yeah. It’s the same way in the seat that I am now. If I spend all time afraid of who’s gonna knock on the door who’s gonna come and find out when they coming and how they gonna come, then we won’t get our mission done. We will not get our mission done. Mm. And so I just say pray for us. Cover us in prayer.

Yeah. We cover ourselves even more, uh, and even more.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: This is part of the reason why I wanted to make sure that our conversation covered in part institutions. I, I, I am, I’m-

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Yes …

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: I’m really clear that there were folks who saw A Black-governed educational institution called an HBCU- Yes … and Black-governed and self-funded organizations called the Divine Nine almost build a president and said these institutions have to go, right?

And the attacks that we’ve been seeing, the kind of undermining that we’ve been seeing, folks denouncing their fraternities and sororities- Yes … denouncing their HBCUs, saying there is no such thing as a Black church, it is because those are three institutions

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: That’s right …

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: among others, that are governed by us, and most of them funded by us, which means that we maintain a level of independence so that you all can do everything that you just described- Yeah

across multiple faiths, across multiple races, across multiple communities and generations. And so I’m really clear that if the institutions were worthless like people wanna tell us they are, then they wouldn’t be under attack. That’s right. It’s sexier to be an outsider, right? Peop- everybody wants to be a outsider.

Everybody wants to be the one with the bullhorn in their hands or the one to throw the thing. And I’m curious, Bishop McKenzie, you have been in these institutions 30 years at this convening table, 70-plus years of NCC’s existence. The AME Church is a 200-year-old institution, and you talked about how there’s no book, no DVD, no movie um, because you were charting your own way, wearing these- Yeah … 200-year-old vestments. Angela Davis calls, um, being radical getting to the root. And I’m curious, Bishop- Hmm … if you had a real moment where you felt like being inside the institution actually allowed you to do the radical thing, even though some people might have thought it would’ve been easier to just be a radical outsider.

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: Well, I always, uh, Brittany, I always, uh, believed that if you want to, um, effect change, then you can’t stand on the outside talking about what they oughta, what they oughta be doing.

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: You … need to be on the inside, uh, working, uh, to effect change at whatever level you are. You don’t have to be the bishop.

You don’t have to be the presiding elder. You don’t have to be the pastor. Yeah.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Right.

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: Be president of the lay organization. You can effect change where you are, and we’ve seen that in the country ’cause stuff that started in the school board is now at the federal level. And, and so- Come on. Yes … uh, you can start where you are, uh, and effect change.

Um, how do you effect change? Uh, for, for me in the seat, uh, where I am, uh, where I was as a pastor, um, uh, God gave us visions that impacted change. Mm-hmm. Um, the last church I served was in the urban core And, uh, when I came to the congregation, uh, there were drug dealers on the corner. There was, um, um, you know, uh, ladies of the night across the street in the apartment.

And I, as I’m doing the needs assessment, as we all do when we come into the institution- … what y’all need, what y’all gotta have- Mm-hmm … where do you wanna go? And they said, “We don’t wanna go nowhere.” Right? Uh, but we are afraid of coming into the neighborhood.

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: So, you know, uh, you know, Vashti from the west side of Baltimore, Ida and- West side of Baltimore.

Ed’s baby. You know, Ida and Ed’s baby girl. I went out on the corner, you know, one Sunday, and I’m watching the people come through, and I said, “Hey fellas, let’s make a deal. Can we make a deal? C- let’s make a deal. Um, whenever we having church, y’all go somewhere else.”

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm-hmm. “

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: And when I here, you here. All right?”

Mm-hmm. Can we create, can we ma- we over here and you over there.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Some safe

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: zones, yeah. As long as you- Safety … long, you know, long as we’re here, we’re here. And they said, “Okay.” Mm-hmm. And then we went about building a seven-day ministry.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm. We here every day.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: We here daily.

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: Seven day, seven day a week ministry, uh, where the, the, the kids were being groomed, uh, by, you know, by, by, um, by, uh, by the dealers.

They were being groomed to be their runners and so forth. And so we, we had an after-school program that said, “Come on. Come on with us.” And we had a Saturday academy, “Come on, be with us.” And then we had something else on Sunday morning, uh, something all during the summer. Yeah. Understand we didn’t have no money, right?

But we ha- we, we know how to say, we know how to knock on doors and make some call. “Can, can you give me $500? Can you give me $1,000? Can you give me $20?” Mm-hmm. Something that we’d be able to help. That is impacting change. Yeah. That is not standing on the outside. That’s impacting change. Mm-hmm. I call it a model of ministry that others can replicate in other areas.

That’s right. So when you go into a room and you’re talking to pastors, “You know, you know, things have changed, and things have changed, and people have changed.” Right. “We have to change the way we reach people.” Mm-hmm. And they look at you with eyes glassed over, right? And so they said, “Well, I tell you what we gonna do.

We gonna go home, and we gonna show you how to do it. And if you think that, that works w- in your setup, then you got it.” Mm-hmm. Yeah. It’s the same thing as a district leader. Yeah. You develop the ministry within your district and say, “Hey, yeah, th- this is how it can happen. This is how it can be done.” When we started our first, uh, 501 (c) (3) in the Episcopal district, uh, all I heard was, “That’s not AME.

That’s not how we do it. That’s not AME.” I said, “Okay, that’s fine. Uh, and as soon as you leave, they gonna start that program.” Oh. Nope. Both nonprofits are alive and well, and sending kids- I know

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: that’s right …

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: alive and well, and sending school, uh, sending folk to school, and doing community projects in communities that don’t have the resources to get it done.

Yeah. Now that you got it, then you can replicate it. Now there’s some things we tried to do, it didn’t work out.

So, so we took it to funders and said, “Here’s an idea.”

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Mm-hmm.

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: And they funded

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: it. Mm-hmm. Right.

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: And they funded it. Right now, at NCC, praise God, we have a $5 million grant to be able to tell the story of ecumenism and unity and how it brings people to action.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Mm. Praise

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: God. Amen.

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: Demonstrate-

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: All ’cause Matt Starr from, from Baltimore said, “Let’s go outside and have a conversation.”

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Yeah, let’s go outside.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Let’s go outside. Now listen, because Reverend Arline Bradley, speaking of outside, I know you like to be outside. And I know, like you said, there are sometimes you said, “Is this me or is this the institution? I’m not gonna betray my conscience- … but I’m not gonna betray the institution.”

Was there ever a moment when you were tempted to go be that radical outsider, but you said, “Actually, I need to plant myself right here”?

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: The museum. Mm. Um, so a few things. It is deafening for the community when they don’t hear or see movement.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Right? That silence is deafening for them. In many cases, this is why your platform’s so important, Brit, because a lotta times we don’t have places to go to say, “Look, we’re actually behind the scenes, you just don’t hear it or see it.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Some want to just, like, blow the whole thing up. Like I want… And Britni was actually there with me in some of this. Like I was just, what I was planning on doing- Oh … is just walking into the meeting. Like we just gonna, we gonna walk into the Board of Regents. Right, I mean, and having, had I had done that- Flip

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: the tables,

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: yeah.

Flip ’em. That’s all we do. ‘Cause this is what Je- this is Jesus’s full ministry. I don’t even know why we don’t honor it, but I will, I wanna honor His flipping. But the reason why I did not was there were three things at play. We have a Black secretary of the Smithsonian.

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: Right. Mm-hmm.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Mary McLeod Bethune just erected a Bethune room inside the museum.

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: Right. Mm-hmm.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: And the three main spaces owned by the government, the council house, George Washington Carver’s, uh, renovation, and Frederick Douglass’- Mm-hmm … renovation, connected to our headquarters, was at stake.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: And sometimes before you blow it up, you gotta know what you’re about to blow up. Mm.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Because it’s easy to be reactive, because I would’ve gotten a lot of clicks like, “She’s that girl.”

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: And then at the end I would’ve lost so much.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: And I was having a conversation, oh man, it was a private conversation. I’m gonna share some of it because I think the people need to hear it. There are moments when God gives me chances to be in rooms that I realize are happen- meetings are happening and conversations are happening that none of us know about.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: And I’m often the only Black person in the room that has to carry a mantle.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: And I now know what Dr. Height would do, why she navigated very well in multiple spaces, because she realized all of this is bigger than how she felt in that moment. And I am, that’s not my ministry, ’cause I’ll react to what I feel.

And then Jesus would give me an assignment like be- Be r- non-radical when I wanna holler? Mm-hmm. No, Shavon, learn and grow because if you blow it up now, when will Micah have a Bethune room to go to?

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: I often see his little eyes when I’m walking into a place. Like Shavon, I- my goal is that his children and his children’s children will have a space to hear about their history.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: And maybe their grandmother was the one that was standing firm enough, and quiet enough when she needed to be, to ensure- Mm … he had it.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: So that’s a story that I think I wanna share, is that there are a lot of times, even now with this voting rights work, “Why aren’t you all outside?” I’m like, “Do you know what we’re really doing?”

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Do you know how many hits we’ve had to take? Do you know that we’ve lost $5 million? Do you know that we’ve had to fire staff because of the giving- Mm … and the diversity, equity, inclusion? Mm-hmm. Did you know that we are giving our own money sometimes and paying for things- Mm … out of our pocket- Mm-hmm to keep institutions alive? Do you know? And the answer is no.

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: No, they don’t know.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: No, they don’t know. They don’t know. And the answer is, and they can’t know it all. Yeah. Because it is not their job to carry it, it is mine. It’s my assignment. But yet and still, the platforms like yours, Brittany, give us a chance to say, “Brother, sister, don’t forget the Black institutions that are quietly-” Mm

killing the game for you. Yeah. That are fighting to make sure babies go to school, that are fighting to feed families, that are fighting to make sure you have Medicaid. Mm-hmm. That are fighting to make sure that SNAP doesn’t go away, that are fighting- Mm-hmm … so you have some ancillary benefits in these times- Mm-hmm

when our base, our base, is losing their jobs. Mm-hmm. And when your base loses jobs, they can’t give. And I don’t want them to give, I want them to eat. Yeah.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: And so part of this mantra, this experience of a leadership is so daunting.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Because I don’t think people really understand the weight of what it means to have things crumble in your face.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: And it be public.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: To go through that kind of, uh, that kind of, um, scandal and those things that people just, they live for this click.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: So I’ve gotta think past the one-click moment.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: And that’s not easy in a moment and in a world where clicks are the only thing that give affirmation, when this work requires more than clicks.

It requires thousands of hours of undercover work.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: It requires a lot of nos. Mm-hmm. It requires a lot of hidden fights. Mm-hmm. A lot of tears, a lot of, you know, boxing in the air, swinging against a moving goalpost called democracy in America- Mm … under this administration.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Ooh. It’s deep. It’s deep.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: It’s real deep. Yeah. Before I let you both go, one, one more question for each of you. Especially as women and leaders of faith, we are watching this perverse thing called Christian nationalism take over government, take over policy, take over culture, when everybody over here knows that’s not of God, but plenty of people have been convincing others that this blue-eyed, blonde-haired American Jesus wanted this.

And I’m curious, Bishop, you’ve got folks who are standing up in the name of so-called Christian nationalism and saying, “Put the Ten Commandments on the walls in the schools,” and- Mm … uh, all of these kinds of behaviors. But if anybody knows all the commandments, not just those 10, it’s a bishop. What do you say to those legislators who say they’re making moves in Christ’s name-

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Ugh

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: and they’re actually cursing His instruction?

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: Mm. Hmm. Um, James Cone, the godfather of, of Black theology- Yes, Lord … uh, reminds us in his work, and we don’t even have to… We just go to the Bible. Yeah. Uh, when, um, Isaiah the prophet, uh, preached, he, you know, he, he said something, he said something in there about setting the captives free.

He said at liberty- Mm-hmm … the captives and, and so forth, and, and, and about the poor. He said something about that. And when Jesus- Something about it … preached His initial sermon, He said the same thing.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Yeah, He did.

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: You know, “I have come to do what?” And that’s liberation. And so if you, if you support and put forward, uh, an organization, administration that is, uh, that supports oppression- Mm

then you ain’t about this Jesus. You ain’t. Because this Jesus is about liberation. This Jesus is about taking care of the what? This Jesus is about setting the captives free. That’s the gospel. And so, uh, for NCC, we have a brand-new book on, uh, white nationalism, but we have been- Mm … talking about it since 2018.

But you also have to say, what is behind this move?

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: Okay. What is behind this move? So I, I was reading about how, uh, women in certain places, uh, came all together and said, “We don’t mind our husbands voting our choice.” “Because we usually vote the same way anyway, so, um, I, I’d be happy to give up my vote, uh- Hmm

so that, um, so that, uh, um, my husband would vote, you know, da, da, da.” Mm-hmm. Then, then, then I hear a rumor about this legislation, uh, that is working to take the right to vote from women. Oh, mm-hmm. Oh, so that’s what this is about. Because if that goes forward- Boy. Yeah …

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: w- they will be told, “Oh, no, you don’t lose your vote.

Your husband is voting for you.”

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: Yeah. What about all the women that don’t have a husband to vote for them? Come on. And then does their father and the brother vote for you? Mm-hmm. So sometimes we have to ask what is behind, uh- Yeah … this move to nationalize faith and religion. Is it hiding under the gospel?

Is it hiding under Christ? This, it sounds the same way that people used the gospel to justify slavery. Mm. And to justify, yes, oppression, to justify all kinds of things. So as you hear that, ask what is really going on behind that, because people have been using, they’ve been, uh, misusing scripture, uh, forever.

Yeah. And now let me circle back to where Shavon was talking about. A- and, um, to say that, you know, it’s okay to be angry.

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: Jesus says anger and sin not. Right. So it is okay to be angry.

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: good. Okay? Uh, but we have to decide how we’re gonna use our anger. Mm. And what, that’s what Shavon was talking about.

I’m angry. Mm-hmm. I have to decide what is the best place for me- Mm … to use my anger, and how can I use my anger that’ll benefit all of us, that’ll benefit all of us? Mm-hmm. And just like everybody can’t protest, everybody can’t be up on the Hill. Mm-hmm. Uh, maybe your, yours is to be on the phone bank. Maybe yours is to write a letter to the editor.

Mm-hmm. Maybe yours is to knock on doors in your neighborhood. Everybody can’t do everything. Find a thing that you do well and do it. Boom. And do it.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Yeah.

You need another hour. What are you doing? You need another hour. We-

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Right, I know. We need, we, we gonna have to do a part two. What is this? But listen, so I asked for the word to those legislators who claim Christ, but spit in his face every day. Now, Reverend Arlynn Bradley, I need you to close us out with a prayer for those legislators.

And here’s the thing, I know what the word tells us to do when it tells us to pray for those who, to, who harm us and curse us. However, I’m still growing in my faith, and I don’t, I, I be, I, I ain’t got it. I got the anger. Yes. I don’t have the prayer, and I think that knowing what to pray, uh, is important, um, uh, when we have this conversation.

So, so, so pray us out and, and certainly encourage us, but put a little something in there for them.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Jesus, thank you. Let me say it this way, as I, as we, as we actually, as we actually do pray, the part of the prayer has to start from my vantage point. God, forgive us for our inhumanity.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Forgive us for seeing others not like ourselves.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Amen. And I wanna give you context. I preached a sermon last week called The Wolves Wear Collars Too.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: And I likened it to the Incredible Hulk when he would get angry and pull that white collared shirt off. Well, the o- origin of Incredible Hulk was that he had a transformation trigger back then of really about anger or being provoked, but the original comic was his transformation trigger was darkness.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Mm-hmm. And when you have darkness as your trigger, it is very difficult to function because the manifestation of humanity is gone because it’s too much darkness. Mm-hmm. And the prayers that we should be praying are to expose the darkness in our souls- Yes … and bring light and love into our hearts. You can’t say Jesus if you don’t think about Matthew 25.

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: Yeah. Yeah.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Right? When I saw you, you were hungry, I fed you.

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: That’s right.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: You were naked, I clothed you. And I’ve had to have the conversation, my friend, if you say you know the Lord, then how can you vote against SNAP benefits?

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: How can the widow and the child be well without the assistance of Caesar?

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: And so the prayer is just that. Lord, bind us in the love of humanity.

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: Yeah.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Reconnect our hearts to the most vulnerable.

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: Yes.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Forgive us for acquiring and forgetting.

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: Mm-hmm.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Acquiring that what God has blessed us to have and forgetting that we are two, three, four paychecks from it.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Forgive us for hating and being tribal.

I’m talking to the Black Christian. Forgive me- for hating sometimes.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: When I saw the red elephant come.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: I saw a GOP member, and it ached inside. Forgive me for that.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Because I am no better if I do the same thing.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: And yet, God, give me the clarity to be articulate enough to fight for my brother and fight for my sister who will never get a chance to be in these halls.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: And in the yield and the humility is, God, thank you for choosing me to be the one.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: I don’t like the mantle. I don’t want the mantle, but thank you anyway because it was me that you said it had to be.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: And here’s the closing of the prayer. God, in all of this, still be glorified.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: God, in all of this, find your way back to your children.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: Draw us to you in a way that we can’t let go.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: And break down the walls of isms- that cause the people to hide you and open up themselves to haughtiness.

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: And Lord, understand that your children have limitations. Give us the ability to remove the limits-

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah …

Rev. Shavon Arline-Bradley: And transcend that which is in front of us and fight for what we know can be. In Jesus’ name we trust- In Jesus’ name … believe, and pray. Amen.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Amen.

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: Amen.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: And if anybody wants to pass the collection plate, make sure you are passing it to the National Council of Churches and the National Council of Negro Women. Woo! Bishop McKenzie, Reverend Arline Bradley, my sisters, my heroes. Thank you so much- thank you for spending this time with us on Undistracted. We will see you real, real soon.

Bishop Vashti McKenzie: Thank you. Thank you so much.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Thank you. The only sisterhood to which I belong is not the sisterhood of Black women. I belong to the sisterhood of girls from the Midwest and girls who absolutely love bacon. Yes, I’m gonna keep eating swine, okay?

Um, girls who love cheese and dairy and just carry Lactaid around in our purses because frankly we never gonna let it go. There are many a sisterhoods that I would love to belong to, but the sisterhood has to want me to belong. This is a moment, an opportunity really, an invitation for everybody who does not identify as a man to decide that they want to stand for all of us and not just some of us.

We have to build and protect the institutions that are going to make our freedom possible. ‘Cause when we get free, so can everybody else.

Thanks for listening. Thanks for being. And most importantly, thanks for doing. I’m Brittany Packnett Cunningham. Let’s go get free

Our executive producers are Cindi Leive and myself, Brittany Packnett Cunningham.

Our producer at Collective Media is Douglas Forte with supervising producer Ryan Jones.

Our supervising producer at The Meteor is Taylor Hosking and artwork is by Bianca Alvarez.

This episode was produced with support from Liberation Ventures and The Meteor Fund.

You can follow me on all social media @mspackyetti and our incredible team @themeteor.