Episode 5: Everybody Watches Women’s Sports
Please note: This transcript has been automatically generated.
BRITTANY:
You know, one of the things I love about culture is how it can just open up the doorway for us to talk about things that are so important, but may be difficult without another portal. Our favorite podcast can help us think differently about our relationships with our friends, and recognize that they’re just as valuable, if not more than romantic relationships. It’s also the reason why I love sports. I ran track and field, played basketball. And I did dance from elementary school through college, which of course is culturally the arts, but physically very, very athletic, let me tell you. But in the end, irrespective of the sport, whether it’s one I watch a lot, or one that I’m not at all familiar with, I love the stories of sport. I love how sport can bring so many different people together and also expose the fissures in communities and in cultures that are otherwise so difficult to see. I love how sport is a place that the human spirit can dominate and triumph in ways that are spectacular and make absolutely fantastic films. Because even though I don’t like boxing, uh, Muhammad Ali is still the greatest. And I will watch the film Ali anytime it comes on television, which is part of the reason why I’m so excited about this era of women’s sports that is not just about the particular competition or the team or even the athlete, but that it’s about discovering parts of ourselves and our society that so often get overlooked. It’s about recognizing that greatness is all around us in the places that society tells us to ignore. Like what a time to be alive that we can talk about Serena and Simone as the GOAT. Listen, my knees are not Meg Thee Stallion knees anymore, and my athleticism is a chapter long gone by. But I love watching women win. I love watching women compete. I love watching women dare to say, here’s me doing all the things you said I couldn’t do, and frankly, here’s me doing them better than you. You’re welcome for giving you something so entertaining to watch. On today’s show…it seems like everybody’s talking about women’s sports lately. I’ll get into it with the iconic sports reporter, Cari Champion.
CARI:
And so if you’re tuning in and you’re really not watching the sport, or you’ve never paid attention to how women play basketball, you are assigning your, your gender bias on them, which means they aren’t gonna trash talk. They are gonna behave appropriately. There is this sportsmanlike conduct that you want to see from women that you don’t require from men.
BRITTANY:
But first…the news. There was a lot swirling around in the news this week, so let’s get into it. The new study released a couple of weeks ago shows that in states with anti-trans gender laws, the number of suicide attempts by trans and non-binary youth increased as much as 72% over five years, 72%. This is obviously noteworthy because it’s the first major study to link what lawmakers are up to with the actual tangible effects of wellbeing on trans and non-binary. David, I had to call you back for this one. Um, clearly given all that you do in the world with NBJC in supporting and protecting our and trans siblings, how are you thinking about this?
DAVID:
Uh, it incenses me, um, that we are living through a time in our political history where children are being targeted in this way. And so this study is really important. And what the report really underlines is that it’s not the child’s identity. Transness in and of itself, um, is not a problem. It’s the social construction of stigma. It’s talking about kids as if they are a problem. It’s restricting their ability to access lifesaving and affirming care that causes them to think about or engage in what is called suicidal ideation. And we adults caring and concerned adults, people who purport to care about democracy, just people who honor humanity should appreciate how fucked up all of this is.
BRITTANY:
I wanna give a quick update on the Tyree Nichols case. We’ve talked about it before, but last Friday, three of the five officers who attacked Tyree were found guilty on federal witness tampering charges. Still, they were acquitted of the more severe charges violating Tyree’s civil rights by using excessive force and displaying, quote, deliberate indifference to his medical needs. Y’all, the mixed decision caused a lot of confusion and surprise definitely on my part. But Tyree’s mother RowVaughn expressed relief that they all had been convicted of at least something. The three officers were taken into custody with sentencing scheduled for January. So for Tyree’s family and for all of us, the fight continues. Now I wanna talk for a minute about the Almighty Beyonce. And if you’ve been a long time fan of Undistracted, then you already know we’re Hive over here. Okay? Not the weird kind, but you know, we definitely love Beyonce and I’ve been loving that girl since No, no, no. Okay, shout out to Destiny’s Child. But anyway, just last month, Cowboy Carter was snubbed, shall we say, by the Country Music Awards. That’s of course, despite it being the biggest country album of the year. That’s not me talking. That’s the numbers, despite the fact that she’s the first Black woman singing country music to top the country charts. And the thing is, we’re not surprised. In fact, this is exactly what Beyonce said would happen all along…but we’re also now a month out from Grammy nominations dropping. Folks are already taking bets on whether or not the Grammys will be smart enough to avoid this same kind of foolishness. I’m gonna be honest with y’all, I’m not holding my breath. We all know that Beyonce is the all time leader and Grammy wins, and yet homegirl has still never won Album of the Year. Have you heard Lemonade? Did you listen to Self-titled Renaissance? Hello? Make it make sense. And at this point, I’m just gonna start extricating myself from caring, not because Beyonce or other Black artists don’t deserve the recognition they absolutely do, but because these mainstream accolades were really just never meant for us. Stevie Wonder is the only Black artist to win album of the year multiple times. A Black woman hasn’t won since Lauryn Hill Nbb the award in 99. And I remember watching that one live, it was A B, FD, and don’t even get me started on how Prince and Whitney were robbed of the award in favor of U2. No shade to you two, but Prince Whitney, come on. Now. Ultimately, there’s a lesson here about exactly whose approval we are living for. Like I’m all for a life in which women are not dressing for the male gaze in which people are not posting for likes and a life where artists are not creating for awards. Even if you Beyonce. This week, of course, marked a year since the October 7th Hamas attack on Israel. 1400 Israelis were killed that day. Another 8,700 have been injured, and over the last year, at least 41,000 Palestinians have been murdered. We know the victims were mostly women and children. We know that the total death toll is likely much higher. Nearly a hundred thousand people have been injured. At least 17,000 Palestinian children have been orphaned. Those who remain in Gaza continue to face famine and starvation. Over 60 Israeli hostages have yet to be returned home. And that doesn’t even count those who we know have died in captivity. Thousands of Palestinian political prisoners are still in lockup. And now more than 2000 citizens of Lebanon have joined the ranks of the dead. There’s another number I want us to know. Nearly $18 billion – with a B – has been spent by the United States to supply Israel with these weapons. Some of you may remember that we spoke with Imani, a Palestinian American leader and founder of Muslim girl back in 2021, after Palestinian citizens in the supposed safe zone of Sheikh Jaro were forcibly removed from their homes.
AMANI:
I don’t think there is any other way to explain it other than it being a colonial project. I mean, how else can you describe families being completely uprooted from their homes arbitrarily for no other reason than to have another settler family move in, in their place and to disrupt the demographic makeup of that area?
BRITTANY:
Listening to her then and listening to the cries and hopes and pleas of people like Bisan Owda and the Goldberg Poland family – now, one thing should remain fundamentally clear to all of us. Violence cannot bring harmony. Genocide does not birth safety. Apartheid does not breed equity. And war does not create peace. It never has, and it never will. And when I say peace, I don’t simply mean order. I mean true and lasting peace, where every person experiences safety, justice, and autonomy at all times. When I say ceasefire, now I say it knowing that stopping the bloodshed, returning the hostages and the prisoners, feeding the people, and finding a path forward is the bare minimum of what must be done next. We’ll be right back.
BRITTANY:
You all know I’m all about the ballot. I LOVE voting. I REVERE voting. And right now, there’s a lot of people trying to take voting away from us, and you know what? We’re not going to let them! That’s why I love everything about Get Ready With Us, a new initiative powered by your favorite women’s and LGBTQ+ media outlets—I’m talking about Teen Vogue, Betches, Marie Claire, Well-Read Black Girl, The Meteor and lots more. Together, we’re making sure you’ve got everything you need to register, start early voting, get your absentee ballot, find your polling place and get every last one of your voting questions answered. No stress, no confusion. Oh, and there even might be some parties at the polls, so come on…Get Ready With Us. We’ll see you there! Head to GetReadyWithUs.org to learn more, and get ready with us to cast your vote November 5…or before.
BRITTANY:
Hey, y’all, welcome back. Today everybody is saying that everybody watches women’s sports, and we are seeing a rise in these athletes as political and cultural leaders. They’re taking on a host of issues. A lot of systemic abuse is also coming to light. What do more eyes mean for the future of women professional athletes? Cari, welcome, welcome, welcome. I am so thrilled to have you back on Undistracted. Y’all know, whenever it’s time to talk about sports and society, I have to call up Cari, champion. You all know she’s a long time and celebrated sports broadcaster. And Cari, you’ve been watching women’s sports for years now, obviously, of course. Now everybody is like, oh, everybody’s watching women’s sports, and I wanna get into that. First of all, is it true? Does everybody really watch women’s sports or is it just a cutesy shirt?
CARI:
Interesting story. Justine Brown is a friend of mine who has been working in the league for a long time. She is a sports fan. She started working at this company called Together, and they were going back and forth about how to create these T-shirts. And at first the initial thought, the way the story goes is no one’s watching women’s sports. Almost like sarcastic, but everything is so amazing. And she had this plan and she said, you know what? Don’t say no one. Let’s not feed into the negativity. Let’s say everyone watches women’s sports. The idea is everyone is in this together. We’re all watching women’s sports. So the T-shirts were so apropos started to take off because Dawn Staley wore one. And when Dawn Staley, obviously the head coach, right? The queen of all, but the head coach at South Carolina Ward, and she was very proud about it. It started to pick up and you started to see everyone, every, oh wait, wait, everyone does watch women’s. It was just a perfect, what I would like to describe a perfect timing in terms of where we were in women’s sports. And that was right around, and you, you and I had watched this game together in the sense that we were texting about it. Um, it was the championship game with Iowa taking on LSU. And then that game then had broke records. Over 9 million people had watched that game then, um, it was supposed to be the coordination of this, this young lady named Caitlin Clark. All the while the WNBA has been building and having all of its, um, it’s had a lot of attention. People started to pay more attention. But there was something that needed to happen as it is with all sports. There needs to be some sort of tension, some sort of inertia, something that really takes sport or that particular sport, the WNBA to the next level. And it was a storyline that people could really understand and grasp. And it’s happened with all sports. It happened with the NBA, it happened with football. The integration of baseball for that matter, or even track and field. When we talk about Jesse Owens, there are these moments where the sport changes. And so now, yes, everyone does watch women’s sports because they wanna understand what’s going on. What, what’s all, what’s, what’s all the talk about who are these, who are these two women who, and by two women, I mean Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese, do they like each other? Who, who. You know, people are invested. And that’s what makes things extremely popular in this country. In any discipline, you have to find a storyline that people are invested in.
BRITTANY:
You know, I wanna get into that storyline, if you will, in just a second. But when we think about this kind of new fever pitch that women’s sports, for example, the WNBA Women’s College basketball has taken on, um, it’s become such a community experience, right? I mean, you and I, along with several of our girlfriends went to Fair Perry last year, um, to see that women’s college basketball opener, um, of course featuring not one, but two Black women head coaches facing off between, um, South Carolina and Notre Dame. And, you know, I was like, well, maybe we, you know, are the only ones. I don’t know how big this game is gonna be.
BRITTANY:
I don’t know how big the stadium’s gonna be. I don’t know. Was it, it was packed in there. And there were to be clear, we were walking around for days and every time we bumped into another American, they were there for the game, right? I mean, this was a moment, an event, and it’s something that we’re seeing, um, this bump in viewership and support and excitement. We’re not just seeing in women’s basketball. What are some of the tangible differences you see amongst the athletes with this bump in viewership? Is there a change in the tone and tenor of how women athletes are showing up? Have we created a different environment around them at all?
CARI:
Great point. Yes and no. Uh, let me start with the, the, the no for the WNBA in particular, a league that has only been around for 28 years. That’s, that’s nothing. That’s like a very young league. There were a lot of firsts. Now, when it first started after the 96 Olympics, it was very popular. And the women did have swagger, and they did show up in a way that was much more valued. In my opinion, history will show you that viewership was up. Uh, ratings were up, attendance was up. It was, it was something new. And they had wanted this for so long. But as the league lost its narrative, for whatever reasons, you can blame it on anything. And the viewership as well as the attendance started to plateau and or decline, there started to be this attitude of they just play women’s basketball. They don’t dunk. There was this energy around the sport because people knew how much money they made, at least within the sport. And so oftentimes your power is definitely correlated with how much money you make or how much money you are worth. And so the, it, it was very laissez-faire about women’s sports, in particular, the WNBA. And I always felt, I had this conversation with Candace Parker, who just retired. I was on a panel with her this weekend, and I said, I remember interviewing you. And that had to be 2015. And, and it was on Sports Center. And she was saying, thank you for taking the time. Thank you for doing this. ’cause we don’t get that much attention. Mm-Hmm. Thank you. Thank you. That was 2015. Candace Parker is arguably one of the greats of the league.
BRITTANY:
I was gonna say, THE Candace Parker,
CARI:
She had her hair in a ponytail. She just came from practice. She’s not as groomed and polished as she is now when she does television. But the reality was no one was really searching for these women. And it was right after Sparks that wanted Chip. And I remember 2016, and I remember her saying, thank you, or remember her, her boss at the time saying, thanks for having us on, like pe they were asking to be on these shows. And there was this demeanor where I felt like they were overshadowed by what they, the, the, the narrative around the sport. And they had a very, um, like most women do, women aren’t taught to brag. Women are not taught to, to be like, yeah, I’m this, I’m that. You know, when men trash talk, we enjoy it. We love it. Yeah. But women societally have not been given that, that privilege, and especially in sport when it should be something you have. And so I noticed those women felt very demure, very cutesy, very mindful. And I was like, why are they doing this ? Right? I was like, they’re better than this. And fast forward to today, this generation in particular, they’re like, we here and we, and we just should. And you better respect it. And I am bringing my fans with me, and I do deserve this money, and I do want this podcast, and I do want this. It’s an entirely new generation that’s speaking with swagger unapologetically.
BRITTANY:
I’m so glad you gave us that historical breakdown. Um, because it is easy to forget that the dawn of the WNBA similar to, um, the excitement that started to come around women’s soccer in the Olympics, for example. That these were moments of explosion that carried a lot of excitement and fandom and attention. I’m like the love and basketball generation, right? I’m watching Sid actually on the court while her husband is on the sidelines with the baby, right? I’m watching Sheryl Swoopes and Lisa Leslie. And now people are excited again. Which of course brings us to the storyline that you’ve been talking about. This inertia. I love the way you put it. Um, that has brought us to a new fever pitch. Um, your new season of your podcast takes on conversations about race and culture and politics through the lens of sports, because as you always say, all of those things intersect in sport. But also through the rivalry between Angel Reese and Caitlin Clark. So, for the uninitiated, for listeners who are not familiar, give us a primer. How did all of this begin on the court? Thank you for promoting the podcast. You guys can get it wherever you get your podcast. It’s the making of a rivalry. Yes. When Angel Reese and Caitlin Clark graduated from high school, it was the year 2020, I’m gonna take you back. No one was paying attention to anything other than is the world falling apart their first season playing in school? They were playing during the COVID years. They didn’t have an arena where people could come and sit and watch them. There would be these puppets or these, these make-believe people sitting in the stands, if you will. And mm-hmm. . The second year, uh, is when we started to see more and more of this Caitlin Clark lady. Now, if you are a fan of basketball, if you’re deep in the trenches in a a u and you know, you know about basketball everywhere, you would’ve known about Angel Reese and Caitlin Clark. Angel Reese was in Baltimore. Caitlin Clark was in Iowa. These two were always on, I believe, um, a path to meet because Caitlin had already started getting this attention in college because of the way in which she played. Everyone compared her to Steph Curry. Fast forward, Iowa is not known as a team that’s gonna make it through the tournament and, and be in the finals. But they beat Dawn Staley, an undefeated South Carolina team that had probably four or five people go to the WNBA that that season when they graduated. But this young lady by the name of Caitlin Clark and, and the other players on the team, they’re getting their just due as well. Yes. She apparently came out of nowhere. That’s what most people thought. But all throughout the tournament, she’s getting a lot of tension because of the way she trash talks, because of the way she carries herself, because of the way she shoots the ball. People are doing stories on her because she’s fascinating and she trash talks and, you know, we love good trash talk. We like, okay, that’s how you play ball.
BRITTANY:
Go ahead.
CARI:
So then she runs up against this team that no one thought would be that great. This LSU team, they end up meeting in the finals Iowa. So here we are, we are waiting for the coordination. ’cause, and by we, I mean the masses who are already fans of Caitlin Clark are waiting for the coordination because she just beat Dawn Staley and the South Carolina game cops. Right. So
BRITTANY:
She’s already done the impossible. So she, so this must be the second coming of Christ.
CARI:
It must be. It has to be. Right? Yeah. And lo and behold, there was, there was a young lady by the name of Angel Reese who was like, not on my watch, and she’s from Baltimore, and I grew up that way. And we talk trash and I’m gonna talk trash, period. Yeah. And she, and it is, I have said this over and over again, it is a rite of passage. You are allowed to talk trash. If I beat you, if I beat your, I get to do it. Yeah. That is what we do in sport. The problem is, is by now, Caitlin Clark is viewed as America’s darling. And so if you’re tuning in and you’re really not watching the sport, or you’ve never paid attention to how women play basketball, you are assigning your, your gender bias on them, which means they aren’t gonna trash talks. They are gonna behave appropriately. There is this sportsmanlike conduct that you want to see from women that you don’t require from men.
BRITTANY:
Preach.
CARI:
So when, when, when Angel Reese was walking around the court taunting her, that was a bit too much for the fans. Now I look, you can decide if she should have taunted her for a bit trash, talked her for a little bit and moved on. It was her moment. This is a crowning achievement. She did the impossible. She took away the crown from everyone who thought that was supposed to get it. So she goes on and she does what she does, and she speaks so un unapologetically. And I’m all like, well, where does she come from? Some pretty grown men – and people – were calling her classless and saying she was inappropriate. The next day I was on CNN talking about the hand gesture. And no one had anything to say about how great they were.
BRITTANY:
Which by the way, is a gesture that Caitlin Clark had made herself games before
CARI:
Make that point. Friend. She had been trash talking her way through that tournament, and it was fine, which
BRITTANY:
Is what athletes do.
CARI:
But when it was turned on her America and its new viewers and its new fans, the optics of a Black girl taunting a white girl who is America’s darling, I already knew this was about to be a story. So that is when the rivalry began. Although these young ladies were not rivals in the sense they didn’t like each other, they liked each other, but they, that’s when the rivalry began. And we got dug in. I’m I’m pro Angel. I’m pro Caitlin. And that has been what it’s been ever since.
BRITTANY:
Like you constantly say women athletes are athletes. Their job is to win. And as you’ve been saying, we don’t allow women athletes to compete in the same way that we do men. What would it look like for America to actually make space for women to very simply compete.
CARI:
It would look like the NBA and I don’t wanna do the comparisons, but no one is, is mad when LeBron stands over Luca and trash talks him. No one is mad when Kyrie is in somebody’s face who doesn’t look like him or the same color. No one’s mad. And it’s reserved that the way we consume sports, myself included, it has only been reserved for men because it’s never been fair. It’s never been equitable as we see in pay, but even in mentality. Angel Reese is living the dream of everyone else. She is standing on the shoulders of Elisa Leslie and a Cheryl Swoopes. Yeah. Women who always had to be polite and correct, but they trash talked Dawn Staley trash talk when she was in the league. They all talked trash…
BRITTANY:
She’s very good at it.
CARI:
But it didn’t matter until they found their hope, for lack of a better term, their great white hope. There was never an issue when Black women were trash talking Black women. It became an issue in today’s America when America’s darling who looks like she should be playing soccer, was getting trash talked.
BRITTANY:
Let’s talk about that because that phrase, the great white hope is precisely what continuously comes to mind. Not actually when I think of Caitlin Clark, because when she comes to mind, I just think of an excellent athlete. That phrase, great white hope comes to mind when I watch a majority of white people watch Caitlin Clark. And I always say, forgive the comparison that Caitlin Clark is to a certain segment of white sports fans as Taylor Swift is to a certain segment of white music fans, meaning that they have selected their excellent high achieving Black rival. For Taylor, it is Beyonce, for Caitlin, it is Angel Reese. What they place on these women, what they place on Caitlin, what they place on Taylor is not actually expectations around their sport, their music, their achievement, their excellence, their, their artistry, their mastery.
BRITTANY:
What they place on them are expectations about white dominance that they expect for them to convey and carry out a story that says white is right. Um, and, and essentially whether or not they will call it this right, that white is supreme. And a lot of the Black women in the WNBA, for example, Denae Carrington, Britney Griner, um, allies like Sue Bird, other people, they had been really outspoken in saying that this season in particular, the racism has been more pernicious, more pronounced than ever before. Um, it’s all feeling very bird and magic from back in the day. And back then the NBA was not helpful. They were not good at dealing with this. What should the league be doing about this? How can the WNBA correct the mistakes of of history?
CARI:
I’m glad that you, you pointed all of those things out accurate in so many ways. Yeah. What these fans have done, to your point is co-opted Caitlin’s narrative used her name in vain for their own personal and or political gain. That is not unusual. And we’ve seen that done over and over again. Uh, and they probably did it with Byrd. But you know, obviously I, I wasn’t around to cover it in that way or know it in that way. But I’m sure, yeah, we grown that we, we grown. We ain’t that grown. But I know when I watched that 30 for 30 about Bird magic, there was this racial tension that they just could not deny. And the NBA didn’t do anything about it, although they could because it was profitable. And what I want you to understand is that this rivalry is making them money. And while they understand that it’s a bad thing, just like the Taylor versus Beyonce, perceived rivalry is a bad thing. It’s lucrative not only for the individual, but for the actual industry. And so, mm-hmm, , we find ourselves asking the WNBA, what will you do about these fans that seem to be a little more aggressive? There’s a camp that says, this is the price you have to pay when you become successful and noteworthy. There are famous people who deal with racist comments all the time. The NBA deals with it often. And the same way the players in the NBA will point out someone in the, in the crowd and say, can you remove that person? They’re racist. I saw Caitlin Clark do that, and I was glad she did. Oh, wow. I want the women to say the same thing that Russell Westbrook once said. He was like, I need this man right here to get up out because I don’t like the way he’s talking to me. And I heard him say the N word, the WNBA needs to invest more in security. They need to realize that they are not driving a Kia anymore. They in fact have a Porsche and they need to figure it out. Or a Porsche depend ing on what you have to say. And they have to have the maintenance, the money to keep up that car. You know, some people wanna buy a nice car and they ain’t got the money to keep it up. You now have something very beautiful and you need to invest in something very beautiful and very special and very expensive. That means more security. Yes, we have chartered flights, but we need security for these women, especially at these games where these fans are inappropriate. If you see a fan coming in and they have on something that looks maybe sounds isn’t quite right, watch that fan. You can’t kick them out right away. But you can watch that fan. Now here’s the rub. Here’s the unique challenge that I find that Caitlin has as well as, um, Taylor Swift. I’m not, I’m not saying that life isn’t working in their favor, but the unique challenge of people who appeal to the masses and have that type of visceral experience for these fans that are diehard fans, it’s not just watching her play basketball. It means so much more to them. It almost as if it’s the same thing with the Swifties. It is an identity. I am a Clarky. I am with her. I’m, I move with her. I, I support her more than you ever know. She is me. She is representing my white womanhood. She is all the mm-Hmm. , whatever it may be. She is the future. She’s going to take back what’s rightfully ours. She’s giving me an example of what we can do. It’s another level of fandom that I’m not familiar with. And I have only seen this type of fandom for these rare, rare people. And the fact that Caitlin Clark has that type of effect on people gives her a tremendous amount of power.
BRITTANY:
You made a point about Caitlin ejecting, you know, asking for that person to be that fan, to be ejected from the game. I’m somebody who wishes that she would’ve spoken, spoken of earlier. Um, knowing that as a white woman, you’re coming into a league that was built by and is, um, filled with the majority Black women. I don’t think that there’s anything wrong with us holding that expectation of people of privilege in any industry.
CARI:
Yes. Yes. A thousand times. Yes. Here’s the thing. I, the, I, I had a friend of mine, he is, uh, he used to be a quarterback, white quarterback in the NFL. And then he ended up now being a quarterback’s coach. And he primarily only is working with Black players. And he says to me one day, I didn’t realize what a privilege it was to only be able to talk about race when it was convenient. You live in it, you experience it, you deal with it every single day. Of course it’s consuming you. So every time I hear someone say, why does it have to be about race? Well, it’s because we don’t have the privilege to not live in a world where you see our skin.
CARI:
And I say all that to say, when we think about Caitlin Clark, I don’t believe at 22 years old, she realized her privilege coming from Iowa. Yeah. I inter – for this podcast series, I interviewed her college coach and her high school coach. They shy away from the conversations of race. Each and every time I tried to bring it up, they danced around it ’cause they were uncomfortable. But her high school coach said something to me. The reason why Caitlin probably didn’t wanna say anything in the beginning is because we don’t have much diversity here. We have some, but not a lot. And she didn’t wanna get it wrong. And then I asked somebody else, she didn’t wanna get it wrong. But now then I say, well, to whom much is given, much is required. So while Caitlin and Taylor may have this unique challenge, the power that you have requires that you take on this responsibility, whether you want it or not.
BRITTANY:
You know, when we talk about that responsibility, some of me wonders if there’s not already a social and political inclination that certain athletes walk in with because of their identity. Right? I’m thinking about Alison Felix and Serena Williams speaking up as Black mothers and talking about birthing trauma and support for motherhood in sports. I’m thinking about Simone Biles and, um, and so many other gymnasts talking about mental health and sexual abuse. And that has of course, come at real cost and yet instill they’re standing up and speak. I’m even thinking all the way back to like Billie Jean King again before the both of us predates the both of us, but Billie Jean King in this whole battle of the sexist tennis match, right?
BRITTANY:
Um, these political conversations are attached to women athletes, whether or not they asked for it, simply because they are women athletes and their existence is political. I think so many more are standing up and speaking out Now. Do you feel like their stories are making a difference? Especially when we see, you know, the stories of gymnasts talking about sexual abuse and the fact that one in four young women athletes experiences violence in sport according to a recent UN report. I mean, there is much difference to be made. Are these stories helping create that difference?
CARI:
I do believe the story shifts the dynamic and brings the conversation to the forefront. I do believe racism has been an issue for the WNBA since its inception. Uh, you know, there was at one point 70% of the women were L-G-B-T-Q-I-A, um, predominantly Black league. Uh, a lot of people from other countries are in this league. Their sheer existence is an act of resistance. And I do believe these conversations will help.
BRITTANY:
I mean, when you talk about expecting protection, it’s both protection from what it means to be a woman athlete, right? And all of the threats that can come with that racial, sexual gender-based others, and the threats that come from speaking up and speaking out. Right? Because standing for something in this world has a real cost, especially when standing for something means you’re doing it in public and that somebody’s profit margin is attached to it. I recently saw that Michelle Moore, who wrote the book “Real Wins” said – quote – “racism is patient. Sponsors will remember when you use your voice.” And what I took that to me was that eventually a lot of these outspoken, honest, upfront athletes are going to pay a penalty. That there is a high cost to activism. I have paid it myself, and I’m not even an athlete. Right? Especially if you are a Black woman, if you are a athlete.
BRITTANY:
All of these things we’re in what really just feels like a pivotal moment because there are so many more eyeballs on women’s sports, which means there are more ears hearing the outspoken thoughts of these athletes. and these athletes, of course, are not getting paid as much when they’re on the court, on the field because they’re women. So then they have to go and try to build a sustainable career off the field or off the court outside of the arena. And to do that, you need those sponsors who have the long memories. So is it truly safer to speak out now than it was before? Or is that, is that a facade? Is that something we’re still working through?
CARI:
If you decided to survey the women of the WNBA, a significant portion of them will feel like they have been unprotected and that they have not been cared for by that league because the league didn’t feel protected and they didn’t feel like somebody was caring for them. So they could not give that to these women because they didn’t know how to do it. They’ve gone through so many commissioners, three that I know of, and Kathy Engelbert being the third, when she was directly asked the question about racism, she did exactly what most of these players do. She danced around it. She was like, rivalry’s good for the sport. And I think you’ll see, but wait, hold on. You’re, we asked you
BRITTANY:
What does rivalry have to do with Band Nails in the N word, babe?
CARI:
To his credit, the interview or the anchor didn’t push back because he knew she didn’t want to answer the question. But that’s the problem. We need people who look like Kathy Engelbert to answer the question. I need somebody who doesn’t look like me to take the L because it won’t cost you as much. I mean, I do believe these conversations we’re having will change, but I I, I am not faulting these women in the WNBA for being hesitant to speak out because you know what they got? I got to eat. I got a career.
BRITTANY:
Um, which is something that you focus on a lot, right? Aside from your journalistic work, you have a foundation, Brown Girls Dream, where you support young women of color who are navigating media careers, um, who are going to be paying additional tax and additional costs simply for showing up as they are. So I’m curious to hear from you, because you offer them advice and put mentors around them all the time. How do these athletes now capitalize on their new fame? What, what mistakes would you tell them to avoid? What, what would you tell them to get on top of now?
CARI:
Such a great question. I am old enough to remember sitting with Sue Bird at an airport in Austin, and we were doing South by Southwest. I was at ESPN and I was like, Hey, so that was a great panel we did. She was like, look, I’m just trying to get a job. I don’t know what to do. I got maybe one or two more years left. Mm-Hmm, . So this is Sue bird talking. This is, they, here are a few options for these women. Some go overseas and do a couple of years over there and bank some money and put it in their pocket. They can still do that. But their options are limited. They don’t have much. And the advice that I give to them, don’t put yourself in a position where you cannot bring most of yourself to work. And what I mean by that is don’t take a job working for one of the networks calling the games when you know that there’s more that would, that would drive you. And there’s more that you want to say and there’s more that you want to do because it comes across eventually.
CARI:
Mm-Hmm. it won’t help you in the long run to pretend to be something that you are not. But I always tell these ladies, don’t forget that you can fall back on your degree. There was another dream. Mm-Hmm. Outside of playing ball. I also look to NBA players to help these women. And I’m gonna tell you why It is more feasible for a man to fall into a lucrative position as he decides to retire, as he decides to transition out of the sport. And I have challenged these men, uh, the Dwayne Wade who start his own business, who owns two teams for that matter. Mm-Hmm. I’ve challenged them to say the next business deal you have, bring in your favorite WNBA player. There are women who wanna retire too, who wanna be a part of things as well. Don’t forget about them. Don’t just hook up your homeboys that you hook up in the league.
CARI:
They have friendships, the WNBA players and the NBA players have relationships and friendships. You know what these women wanna be a part of? Bring them in the same way you’d bring in LeBron or you’d bring in Kyrie, or you bring in any of your homeboys. Bring them in too. Mm-Hmm. . And I also encourage these women to do the same to go to them and ask for that help because there is a way that they can take over the business aspect. And in my mind, honestly, Brittany, in my mind, once these women start thinking with the business as opposed to sitting in front of the camera, the power dynamic will shift and they will be able to make real change. Imagine if one of those players owned the Utah Jazz, or imagine if one of those players owned the Chicago Sky go to where you could seriously make the change
BRITTANY:
Okay, so before I let you go, I mean, we’ve dropped so many names of incredible athletes, leaders, coaches, and we started off talking about both Angel and Caitlin being a shock and surprise for some people. Right? Where, where did you come from? Did you fall outta the sky? So that we are not shocked and surprised by the next generation of talented women athletes? Who should we be watching? Which athletes are you just obsessed with right now?
CARI:
Great question. And also, this is a benefit and I think more people are more educated on who these women are now because of Yeah. How well the WNBA is doing. So you are looking at your college players like, who’s up next? Juju Watkins. They’re saying Juju is Jordan. They already given her that, that hype and that comparison. Uh, what I like about Juju,
BRITTANY:
Juju and that bun, man!
CARI:
Girl Juju and that bun, but Juju just want a ball. Juju was a old school ball. Very, i I, her personality in terms of I don’t care about whatever else is ha She would be somebody, she’d be like, I don’t really wanna speak on this, I just wanna ball. But Juju Watkins at USC, Kiki Rice at U-C-L-A-I, I would be, it would be wrong for me not to mention Kiki, obviously Paige Macers, my goodness. How could I even forget Paige is going to be, she’s going to be the voice, the way in which she goes about talking about uncomfortable, uh, topics such as race, being a woman, sexuality. She has such an ease in her voice and at such an a comfort level with those topics. She’s going to be a voice for the WNBA in the best way. And I just love her in general. Don’t you just love her in….
BRITTANY:
I love her. She also loves my, she likes, we like all the same gospel songs. So Paige is always good in my book.
CARI:
Okay! And Paige is an example of living in all the worlds. She doesn’t take her privilege in a way that says, okay, I’m only gonna talk about race when it’s convenient. I live in it daily. Mm-Hmm. My stepmother is Black. I’m, I understand it and I see it, and I, and I’m aware of it and I’m not gonna ignore it. I’m going to embrace it. Yeah. And I’m gonna live in this uncomfortable conversation until it becomes comfortable with me. And if we can do that, we are in a good space. Not everybody will, but we are in a good space. And you can quiet these, these trolls and these fan bases that are, that are stands, if you will, that are changing the narrative in real time for something that is not what this league wants to represent,
BRITTANY:
So that we can all get serious about watching Ball. ’cause that’s exactly what we wanna do.
CARI:
I love you for having this conversation with me. It’s necessary and it’s needed, and we’ll keep having these conversations until people understand it.
BRITTANY:
Well, I love you for being a genius that can always walk us through the sticky, hard, confusing, uncomfortable things with such care and such humor, and always with the most glowing skin I’ve ever seen.
BRITTANY:
You know, a few years ago I had the awesome opportunity to present an award to somebody who’s actually one of Cari’s best friends. And now a good sister friend of mine, Jamele Hill. She of course is a fellow sports journalist and enthusiast. She also writes now for The Atlantic. But back then, when I gave her that award, it was just a couple of months after Jamele had frankly, almost casually said what I thought. Everybody knew that Dawnald Trump was a white supremacist. The backlash she got was swift and Broad. It came with professional cost and issues of personal safety. And people cannot stop calling that girl out her name. But like the Detroit girl that Jemele is, she stood 10 toes down and said, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with pointing out a truth that frankly everybody should recognize. When I got the chance to present her that award, it was at, it was on behalf of an organization called Athlete Ally. That was recognizing the power of folks in sports and the co-conspirators who have supported them. I also got to meet Billie Jean King that day. It was a pretty dope evening to say the least, but I think about that evening all the time because it was such a clear reminder that whether you are the most intense sports fan, or you are very simply the parent, uncle or auntie who brings the best snacks to your loved one’s T-Ball game, that there is no place where culture, politics, race, and society intersect quite like sports. And at some point, we’re all gonna be touched by it. Whether we tune in every single Sunday to hear that football jingle, or we only get patriotic every four years just to see an American Olympian win. There is something special about the stories, the rivalries, the things that sports make us see about ourselves and about one another, and how we relate to this world of ours, how it was built, and how we can rebuild it. I love it. I love it when culture does that. That’s it for today… but never for tomorrow. UNDISTRACTED is a production of the Meteor and our new friends at Wonder Media Network who have been absolutely outstanding. Our producers are Taylor Williamson and Hannah Bottum. Our editor is Grace Lynch. Thanks also to Natalia Ramirez and Sarah Culley. Our executive producers at The Meteor are Cindi Leive and myself and our executive producer at Wonder Media Network is Jenny Kaplan. You can follow me at Mspackyetti on all social media and our incredible team at the media. Subscribe to Undistracted and don’t forget to write and review us y’all on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any place you get your favorite podcasts. Thanks for listening. Thanks for being, and thanks for doing. I’m Brittany Packnett Cunningham. Let’s go get free.