Please note: This transcript has been automatically generated.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: My favorite piece of content from the World Cup is this German woman getting down in a Black club in Houston, Texas. Like she has lost her… I don’t know if it was Bun B playing or somebody, but she was like, she had lost it. She was like, “This is the most amazing music I’ve ever heard in my entire life.”

It’s like- And people were just like, “Go ahead and get it, mama.”

Jemele Hill: I think this World Cup overall has been beautiful because of how these visitors are experiencing America, and understand that we are not defined by the ugliness of Donald Trump.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Hey, y’all, it’s Brittany. Different day, different hair, different sweatshirt. Now, throughout this episode, you’ll see me happily jumping on the Knicks bandwagon. I did it with absolutely no shame. New York City is on a generational run, and quite frankly, I wanted to make sure I didn’t miss out on the party.

But I grew up a Chicago Bulls fan, not just because St. Louis did not have a National Basketball Association team when I was a kid, there was no NBA presence, but because my daddy was a Chicagoan until Chicago ends. I fondly remember watching finals games with him, going up about Pippen and Jordan and Rodman, but I also think about him talking about sports beyond the Bulls.

I think about him talking about the pride that he felt in people like Muhammad Ali, and how he represented not just a sport, but a people far outside of the ring. Sports and politics have always been deeply interconnected. You’ve got issues of race, gender, class, all of the above intersecting on a rink or a court.

And at the end of the day, if we wanna talk politics, we also gotta talk sports. Because if this is a thing that brings us all together, then why not let this be a place where we have the conversations that matter? That’s why we gotta stay undistracted.

So our guest today has spent over two decades insisting that sports and politics were never actually separate. Jemele Hill won an Emmy for her work on ABC’s The President and the People. She spent over a decade at ESPN, including co-anchoring SportsCenter 6 before a 2017 tweet calling Donald Trump a white supremacist, which I thought we all understood, turned her into a flash point in a much bigger fight over who gets to speak and who’s expected to stay quiet.

She left E- ESPN not long after, became a contributing writer at The Atlantic, wrote the memoir Uphill, and co-founded the production company Lodge Freeway Media. These days she’s hosting not one, but two podcasts, Spolitics and Flagrant & Funny, the women’s sports show she co-hosts with our girl Cari Champion.

So she was, of course, my go-to person to talk with about the WNBA, the World Cup, and everything else in the world of sports. Jemele, welcome back to Undistracted. So glad to have you.

Jemele Hill: Oh, it’s a pleasure to be back on here on this award-winning podcast, might I add? Oh, thank you

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: so much. Yes. Yes, thank you.

Jemele Hill: Uh, no,

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: it, it is- Thank you.

News of our Webby has preceded us.

Jemele Hill: Yes. A- and listen, I know your inclination was probably to go to Tiffany Cross when it came to the sports stuff.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Listen, Tiffany is the sports guru in the crew.

Jemele Hill: She’s the sports guru, so I’m glad that you settled upon me. I appreciate

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: it. Well, thank you so much for, for saying yes.

I don’t know if you know, in the MNBA, the Knicks won the championship, so I wore this sweatshirt just in case you needed to… Okay. Anyway,

Jemele Hill: um- In case I needed to be reminded. I got you.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: I’m just trying to help out. Anyway, before we get started, we ask all of our guests, how are you doing today in just three words?

Jemele Hill: Well, today, um, I’m a little frazzled to be honest just because it’s, my day has been loaded. Mm. Uh, right before I joined you, I had another therapy session with my mother. Like-

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Now listen, that’s a episode in and of itself.

Jemele Hill: That, girl, that could be a episode in itself. But it’s good though because we know that there, you know, probably for the most of the Black folks in her generation, like the idea of going to therapy was like whatever.

Mm-hmm. But this was not my idea, by the way. This was hers.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Oh.

Jemele Hill: Um, so yeah, she was already doing some individual therapy. Um, and admittedly as what happens with mothers and daughters, like we have gone through some rocky points in our relationship. It happens. And so it happens, so it, it, it felt like this was a very necessary step for us to take if we are, you know, just trying to reframe our relationship and get over some of those generational traps that tend to affect- Yes

Black women and their daughters. So. Yes. Yeah, it’s been, it’s been very positive.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: That’s good. So frazzled, but hopeful and positive. I’m with that. Yep.

Jemele Hill: There you go.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Those are three good words. Um, yeah, we might have to have you come back to talk all about that. Anyway, uh, starting with the good news, not the MNBA but the WNBA.

Let’s talk about that. They negotiated a huge new deal for themselves. They got a massive pay increase for this season, and increased their overall earnings fivefold, raising the minimum salary from $66,000 to $300,000. It was a massive victory that splashed into the popular zeitgeist. But they’re still not being paid, of course, at the same proportion of league income as MNBA players.

You can see that this is a theme for me. I’m officially calling it that. Um, but it was a clearly a hard won victory to say the least. Players started their own successful rival league, uh, for negotiating muscle. Talk a little bit about why this is a big deal. I mean, you’ve been a W fan and a women’s basketball fan for a long time.

Jemele Hill: Uh, um, this is huge. I mean, the very first professional beat I ever had during my time, um, as a professional journalist. And by the way, I appreciate that you said over two decades, ’cause next year it’s gonna be three decades. So thank you for, like- We don’t have to

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: count the three. We still in the two

Jemele Hill: Thank you for keeping it close to two even though- We

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: still in the two

Jemele Hill: I’m knocking on three. But, um, no, when I- it was my first professional beat, and I think about where they were in 1997. There’s, there was only, it was a 28-game season. Um, they, they play well over 40 now, and as part of the new CBA they will be playing 50 games next season, which is- Mm-hmm … incredible. And, um, you know, you mentioned the pay and salary increases, which are staggering and gigantic.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Yeah.

Jemele Hill: And I just encourage people, I know that it’s really easy to compare to the MNBA, but the comparison that should be made is where the MNBA was after 30 years, and then look at- Mm … where the WNBA was after 30 years. And let me tell you- Mm-hmm … the WNBA has lapped the field to where the men’s, where the men were.

Like- Mm … after 30 years, like, they were in serious financial trouble.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Yeah.

Jemele Hill: And the WNBA has certainly gone through some growing pains and some spurts of disinterest and some ups- Mm-hmm … and some downs. But, um, that’s normal for a league as it’s trying to build its foundation. But after 30 years, the, the WNBA has a lot to be proud of.

This c- CBA is historic because you’ll have rookies that come in making six-figure salaries out- Yeah … the gate. You’ll have W- we have WNBA millionaires as well. Obviously there’s room to grow. Um, but I think where they are now revenue wise with the expansion teams coming in- With the interest this league continues to generate, the future looks so alarmingly bright-

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Yeah

Jemele Hill: that, you know, probably in another 15 years there’ll be another generation of WNBA fans who won’t know any different than million-dollar players and- Mm-hmm … uh, media coverage- Mm-hmm … and all of these other things. So that part has been really, um, amazing and awesome to see that all the sweat equity that the pioneers put in, that it got the league to this point to where these young women can say, “I only have to be in the WNBA to provide a financially robust lifestyle for myself.”

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: I’m curious if you think that the brands led the way on the league shifting or if they followed. I mean, now you tune into a game and you see Sephora seat covers, right? Mm-hmm. I mean, Angel Reese has a gajillion endorsements. I got some A1s for Mother’s Day last year, right? Mm-hmm. Um, and it’s clear that the women of the league have been very creative in building their own lanes for a long time, but I’m curious: do you think that, uh, the, the CBA helped the brands get, get clear on just how bankable these players are?

Or were some of those deals that were inked what helped bring the league along?

Jemele Hill: With the WNBA, it was already growing. The growing, the growth was steady. Yeah. But then the explosion happened because then you had- Yeah … Ca- Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese in the league at the same time- Mm-hmm … after what we saw occur, uh, in college.

Mm-hmm. And even though it was dramatic, even though there was a lot to it, a lot to unpack with why that was, right? Um, sometimes you need- Throw them to

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: the grills. Uh-huh …

Jemele Hill: you need a, a moment. You need a- Yeah … you need a lightning strike. Yeah. And the lightning strike happened, and I, I think because the access point is a little easier-

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Mm

Jemele Hill: in getting in to support the WNBA, that also made it an attractive financial option. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, the, the Lakers, I think they’re the last NBA team to be sold. They sold for 10 billion. Mm. You can get in on a WNBA team now for around 300 million. Mm. Very good access point. So now- Yeah … you have investors flocking.

Yeah. They’re like, “Oh, uh, I can get in for this? And this league has huge upside, and the ceiling continues to expand?” Yeah. Right, I mean… And now you’re seeing where the league before used to try to capitulate to a certain image of what they wanted these women to be Mm-hmm. But now it’s not that way anymore.

You got your Barbies, you got your studs, you got every manner of women. Okay. The stud buds is my girl. I love them. Yeah, yeah. Um, you even look at, uh, a p- the promising amazing rookie right now, Olivia Miles, she out there full blown Afro serving buckets. That’s right. Um, and being her authentic self as she does it.

It’s like they under… These women were like, “You gonna learn to like it.” And that was their approach. Yeah. And the brands have followed, and they understand this was a untapped market that they didn’t even really think about. So now that they have this incredible brand support that’s growing, I think it was they had to force themselves to be seen.

And- Mm … as you know, that’s not easy to do, especially if you’re talking about a league that is dominated by Black women and queer women. Yeah. Not easy to do. But the one thing about their fan base that’s very different than the others is they have a young fan base- Yeah … that’s very technologically savvy, that kind of these the authenticity is what draws them to it.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Yeah.

Jemele Hill: The very thing that sometimes the league in its early inception tried to suppress is the thing that’s working for them now.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: That’s

Jemele Hill: right. And so, um, um, so yeah. So I think it’s been, um, a wonderful thing to see the brands finally get on board, and I, I think the, the money possibility for this league is just really quite staggering.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: I think when you bring up sexuality, race, these are the things that the league tried to tamp down, and to your point, that authenticity, that diversity is what makes it so appealing. There’s also, I think, a, a bit of a difference in terms of the outspoken political nature of this league. Uh, the WNBA, of course, has been one of the few places in society where really visible women, especially Black and queer m- queer women, have been vocally, uh, against Trump’s agenda.

You got Liberty players, uh, wearing Kamala Harris shirts. You got Dream players who endorsed Raphael Warnock, even though his opponent, Kelly Loeffler was a co-owner of the team, right? So they really let it be known, I don’t care who signs the checks, I still stand for what I stand for. Why do you think that boldness exists in the W so uniquely, and do you think it will continue now that there’s more money on the line?

Jemele Hill: The boldness exists because most of the women that are in the league have constantly had to fight for dignity and respect. Yeah. Um, you know, women’s sports, while it’s grown a lot, I’m sure a lot of them remember a lot of the indignities they had to suffer of maybe- Mm-hmm … their practice times having to be around when the men played or when the boys played- Mm-hmm

or that support not being there, or them having to, um, often play with boys and prove over and over again, I’m just as good as you, or I belong just like you belong. I love this game and have this passion just like you do. Yeah. So when you’re in that mode, it’s natural for you to fight. Yeah. It’s natural for you to say like, “I deserve this.”

And it’s really interesting because we know that the disparity in salary between, you know, NBA players and women’s players. Mm-hmm. But yet, as you mentioned, when they put themselves on the line for Raphael, uh, Warnock against another WNBA owner, they weren’t making any money. If anything, they should be the ones-

that’s trying to protect their little crumbs- Right … and be like, “Yo, we ain’t got it like that- Right … to be out here, you know, calling out this WNBA owner, throwing all our support behind her opponent. We don’t have it that way.” But yet, that only made them bolder. And-

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Yeah …

Jemele Hill: it kind of in ways shamed the men because it’s like you sitting on millions of dollars and you ain’t doing nothing, right?

Yeah. Yeah. And so what’s your excuse, right? Now, the other half of your question about will this new influx of money and interest, will it change- Mm-hmm … so much about how these women have operated? And- I’m going to say it probably will. Now, will it be as star-studded- That’s

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: promising.

Jemele Hill: Sure … as the WEC? Mm-hmm.

Um, but I think you’re gonna, you’re already seeing some changes to where it’s like, oh, okay. Um, I don’t know that, uh, y- you know, I guess time will tell, and I- I’m hoping that this doesn’t go the way that I’ve seen many other similar journeys go where the money- Mm … starts to flow in, and everybody’s like, “Yo, we gotta protect this bag.”

But I think right now, and this is the beauty of the leadership that they have in having, uh, Nneka Ogwumike be the president. Incredible. You know, having… Yeah, she’s incredible. Yeah. Having, like, um, OGs like Courtney Williams and Alysha Clark, and, like, there’s a lot of OGs still in this that-

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Yeah …

Jemele Hill: they have shown the way about how they supposed to move.

And, um, I hope that continues, and I hope the younger people that are in it carry on that same spirit, which is why somebody, the presence of somebody like Olivia Miles and even Paige Bueckers gives me a lot of hope that it can continue. Yeah. Yes. It just may look a little differently just ’cause, you know, they’re Gen Z, so, like, it’s gonna look different.

Uh-huh. But that doesn’t make it bad because much like the men are facing, yo, uh, this next generation of basketball players, like, realize, or this current generation and beyond, they came in with a bag. Like, Angel Reese came to the league as a millionaire. That’s

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: right. That’s right.

Jemele Hill: Like, so, like, that’s a different mentality, right?

Yeah, yeah. You’re like, hold on- That attitude is different … I already got something. Mm-hmm. And I’m hoping that that doesn’t become a bit of a antidote to the thing that made the league special. And- Mm … I think their fans, though, have a different expectation, and they’re, they’re okay. They’re used to not being, um, necessarily always mainstream palatable.

But I, I do, I do have some concerns that, like- Yeah … uh, like right now, for example In the WNBA, there’s not a single Black woman who’s a head coach in the league. Not one.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Yeah.

Jemele Hill: Zero. That league is 70-ish percent Black.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: That’s right.

Jemele Hill: That’s, that’s embarrassing. And I’ve been a little disappointed ’cause I haven’t heard any players really speak about this.

Mm. Mm-hmm. Because that should not be the case at all, and even if they’re just advocating for the Black assistants that are already in the league- Right … that deserve an opportunity. And see, that’s the other thing, is that, see, that money starts coming in, and the people who are making the decisions then automatically start handing that money to men, and I’m like- Mm

“No, no, no, no, no, no.” And that’s what we’re seeing. It’s like you … Like yo, th- it’s a, it’s a formula that built this league. And I’m not saying that men can’t coach, but what I am saying- No … is that if you’re gonna be a women’s league, be a women’s league. That’s right. And the levers of power need to default be women.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: That’s, that’s right. All

Jemele Hill: right? And the men have to extra earn they way in to prove- Hello … that they really, they really deserve to be there. And so I, I’m a little surprised that that hasn’t been a bigger conversation-

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Hm …

Jemele Hill: among the players, and I think it should be because they’re the ones that can force the action on that.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: If there’s gonna be a, a pay gap in sports, Right … let’s make sure that there’s not a gender pay gap in the w- in the women’s NBA, okay? In the women’s league. Right. Like, come on, man. Um-

Jemele Hill: Yeah …

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: before we get off of the W, I have to talk… We have to talk about a thing that you don’t always like to talk about, I’m gonna be honest with you.

Mm-mm. You, you mentioned them earlier. We have to talk about Caitlin Clark.

Jemele Hill: Oh, okay. Yeah, I don’t

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: enjoy talking about her sometimes. We have to talk about it, and I- Yeah … I know that you’re not, like, opposed to talking about her, but her fans- Yeah … can be very rabid. Correct. And there is a really bright line between how people feel about her.

Nobody exists in the middle. Folks either love that girl or love to hate her. Um, you know, fans on both sides feel really strongly. Some people feel like the W really favors Caitlin, um, and others claim that the league doesn’t protect her enough. Um, clearly, especially given the cultural moment, if you will, that occurred, um, between Caitlin and Angel before they both came to the league, this is an allegory for race as much as it is anything else.

As much as it is skill, stats, right? It’s v- it- Yeah … that is crystal clear to near everybody. Um, and you know, a lot of folks are frustrated by Caitlin’s fans in particular, um, and clear accusations of racism against Black players and Black fans. I’m curious from your perspective If you think that the Women’s League will have the ability to break through on race in a way that other sports have not, right?

Or are we, like, stuck in a Joe Lewis and whatever white man he was boxing- … moment, right? And it’s just always gonna be that.

Jemele Hill: I mean, you- ’cause in, in some ways we would like to think women might be a little bit more elevated, but, um, no, ’cause y- you know what? The W- the WNBA unfortunately still play- takes place in America.

Yeah. And no matter what, there’s a certain amount of racial pornography that this entire country feeds on and produces constantly.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Mm-hmm.

Jemele Hill: And we know that that culture moment happened because Angel Reese is Black.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Hello.

Jemele Hill: Like, two white girls getting into it like that, that would’ve been nothing. Black and

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: excellent.

Let’s be clear.

Jemele Hill: Black and excellent, correct. Yeah. But two white girls getting into it like that, nah. Not news. No one cares about that. It’s that when you, when you, when you change it up, that’s when it’s like, okay, now we spicy. Mm. Now we got something else. And you know, it, it is unfortunate ’cause while some of that, we would be naive to think that some of that did not help and assist in the growth of the WNBA in terms of popularity- Yeah

viewership, eyeballs. It totally did. Yeah. Uh, and I, I just… I don’t think as a public, frankly, we’re mature enough to not devolve the situation into that. But historically these are the moments that have stood out. I mean, boxing feeds off racial animosity as part- Yeah … it’s, they made it a part of their, of their marketing plan.

Mm-hmm. Like, whether it be Black and white, whether it be Mexican and Black, like it’s- Mm-hmm … it’s what it is. Um, and you know, I think part of, of this rabidness, like we know that there are some fans who have used Caitlin Clark, uh, in her own brilliance as an avatar- Mm-hmm … to get off everything they’ve ever wanted to say about- Ever

Black women. Ever. Like, they just do it. Like, it’s just- We

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: monkeys and apes and- Correct … they make

Jemele Hill: fun of

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: the nails and the hair and the-

Jemele Hill: Yes … yikes. They don’t even like basketball. They just hate Black women. It’s just what it is, right? And so, um, that element is unfortunately probably not going anywhere.

Yeah. And, um, I don’t know. I think it was probably way more overwhelming than the WNBA thought it would be. Mm. They didn’t handle it well. I don’t think the brass, the leadership handled it well in addressing this. I don’t know. Frankly, it’s, it, it’s, it’s, it’s hard for me to come up with a solution in which ways they could have done it because- Yeah

you know, social media is a beast unto itself, and you’re not gonna be able to shut down people from, you know, taking it to the level in which they took it to. But, um, you know, I just hope m- the I, I, I just have a really low expectation. One day- Mm … I hope we’re able to talk about Caitlin Clark in a normal fashion.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Yeah.

Jemele Hill: Just as a basketball player. That’s all. Yeah.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: I get that. I hope that though. I think, I do think, and this is, this is me saying this, not Jemele Hill. This is Brittany Packnett Cunningham saying this ’cause I got- Yeah. Get- … some feelings about Caitlin …

Jemele Hill: get, get it to her. No, I’m just kidding. I’m kidding.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: I just, I mean, this is not anything I haven’t said publicly before.

I don’t think that Caitlin is taking enough responsibility. Do I think that it all should be on her shoulders? No. Do I think that the idea that she has no responsibility is fair either? No, I don’t. But then she walked- Right … out of that Morgan Wallen concert, and a lot of people realize what people like me and some others have been saying.

Maybe she’s not saying something because she doesn’t disagree with everything. Yeah. And perhaps that’s just something people need to- wrestle with. Um, also, all things aside, I just want everybody to know that this is not a podcast where we will claim that Caitlin Clark is the face of the league, because A’ja Wilson is the face of the league.

That’s undebatable if you are @Undistracted. I hear you. Okay. Yeah. I’m just, I just- Mm-hmm … wanted to put that out there. All right, let’s, let’s talk about the men for a little bit, I guess. Because the Men’s World Cup, the M- the MWC I guess we’ll call it, the Men’s World Cup is taking over America. Um, the, the, the fever is rich.

People are very excited. But when we talk about this intersection of sports and politics, we are talking about a world game, and ICE has refused- Yeah … to stay away from the World Cup host cities. Mm-hmm. While they said they won’t arrest anyone in a World Cup stadium, there’s clearly still heightened ICE attention and arrests happening around and outside of the stadiums.

Amnesty International is calling what’s happening a human rights emergency, while FIFA keeps selling safe, welcoming, and inclusive as their brand. And you’ve talked before about FIFA caving to host governments and, uh, all, going all the way back to One Love LGBTQ, that armband- Mm-hmm … controversy in Qatar.

Yep. What do we know about what’s actually happening, and what do you think FIFA should be doing about it?

Jemele Hill: So, uh, FI- FIFA’s compromised, that’s number one. Like we knew- Mm … with their visits to the White House and how they’ve capitulated to Trump, like it’s just, it’s like, all right, dude, we get it. Like, they’re compromised.

Yeah. So expecting FIFA to be a leader in this, despite the fact that the FIFA president, which is kinda crazy, it wasn’t that long ago where he gave this really beautiful speech about how they were n- not just about inclusiveness, but like being very specific about- Mm … uh, the racial hostility that has often been a part of the game.

Like, there’s a lot of the players that are African or on African teams that have suffered- Yeah … a tremendous amount of racism. And not just Africans, but just Black peop- anybody of color, of some kind ’cause somebody- Yeah.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Anybody melanated, yeah.

Jemele Hill: Any Black, yes, any melanated skin, they’ve had indignities of where bananas have been thrown at them, monkey noises being made in the crowds.

Like, it’s happened. It’s a real thing. Um, and so, and, and FIFA w- had been previously like very outspoken about those things, and yet this is gonna be the same league that is sitting there, you know, sort of singing and tap dancing in the presence of Donald Trump. So- Yeah … I think expecting anything from them is probably expecting a little too much.

But I’m gonna say this. Despite the, the, the, um, shadow that- Mm-hmm our current politics and our current administration, despite the disrespect and the dehumanization that they have had from people, um, from other countries, immigrants, um, in general Mm-hmm … non, we’ll just say non-whites. Non-whites overall. You know what?

The, what I have been inspired by by this World Cup is that the visitors that are here are very much seeing that there’s a really big difference between the government and between the people. Mm.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Yeah.

Jemele Hill: Very big difference. Yeah. And you know that monstrosity that took place on the White House lawn of UFC 250, That’s not America.

What we’re seeing in terms of how these fans are being accepted in American cities, how frankly it’s been tickling me, the best content is when they try- … American foods that are like- Yes … horribly unhealthy and awful. Like-

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Yeah …

Jemele Hill: I would love to know what their cholesterol gonna be when they leave here, ’cause it’s gonna be bad.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Listen, I know that they were in Walgreens and CVS buying their mad asses afterwards ’cause their systems was not ready for the deep fry,

Jemele Hill: whatever. Oh my God, like, seeing them experience Waffle House for the first time- … has been hilarious. Waffle House, Cracker Barrel. They been all up in Golden Corral. Yeah.

They been to Shoney’s. They- They been in

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: the clubs too. Yes. There’s a video that, my favorite piece of content from the World Cup is this German woman getting down in a Black club in Houston, Texas. Like she has lost her m- I don’t know if it was Bun B playing or somebody. But she was like, she had lost it.

She was like, “This is the most amazing music I’ve ever heard in my entire life.” It’s like- And people were just like, “Go ahead and get it, mama.”

Jemele Hill: Go… You know what I’m saying? ‘Cause you know Black people are like the most welcoming people on the planet. Indeed. Like, right? It’s like, we’re like, “Okay, get, get yours.”

That to me has actually sort of in a way cleaned up the stench of what we know- Mm … how this ama- administration feels about visitors, because I, I really was super concerned, and this is not to say this, this has not been happening. I was m- really fearful that there would just be international incident after…

There have been some, like the Somalian referee for sure. Like, there have definitely been some, but I thought it actually would be way worse. Yeah. And I guess that’s kinda telling in itself. I mean, I’m like, man, that’s, um, that says a lot. But I, I think this World Cup overall has been beautiful because of how these visitors are experiencing America, and understanding we are not defined by the ugliness of Donald Trump.

Like, we got more th- we got more to us than that. Like, we’re not gonna let one person or one administration define who we are and what makes this country special. What makes it special is the ability to share, to blend experiences, to blend- Yeah … cultures, to still even, to still obviously have room to, um, amplify distinct cultures, of course.

But, like, I think th- that part to me has been the bigger lesson than, than the ugliness of this administration.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Yeah. Do you think that there are important lessons for Americans to learn from our visiting friends from around the world during this World Cup season?

Jemele Hill: Yes. Yeah. A, a thousand percent, and- I think w- hopefully what they understand is how damaged our reputation around the world is.

Mm. That’s number one- Mm-hmm … is that people don’t have a positive view of America. And the fact that they came here and were surprised, right? Yeah. Tells you all you need to know.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Yeah.

Jemele Hill: And secondly, I hope it communicates that our reputation around the world does matter. Mm-hmm. And we’ve, uh, isolated ourselves with this whole bullying, um, mentality of like we big, bad America and we- Yeah

don’t need to share and this and that. It’s like we’re part of a global humanitarian brother and sisterhood, and we should- That’s right … embrace that. That’s right. We should embrace that. And so I hope it’s been a lesson for us as well, um, that we don’t have to let this administration define what makes us great.

We know what makes us great.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: I do think that the growing embrace of soccer, football, in America is hopefully a sign of us becoming much better global neighbors and citizens. Because for so long, you know, it was the running joke of like we don’t take soccer seriously here. We only see soccer in the Olympics or when your child is playing on an intramural team-

where nobody really wins and everybody gets a participation trophy, right? But, you know, I live in a city where there are multiple soccer teams, and there’s a brand new stadium. We’re seeing men’s soccer, women’s soccer, college soccer becoming much more popular, and realizing that that is as global a sport as it is, unlike football, um, is a, uh, um, I’m, I’m hoping a good harbinger of, of things to come in terms of us taking ourselves seriously as a, as a global contributor and not just arrogant Americans who don’t know about what’s going on around the globe.

Jemele Hill: Yeah, no, I think that’s, that’s a really salient point because I do think there are a faction of Americans that do look at us that way. Um, and that’s disappointing because we should embrace the, um… we should embrace the mantle of being good global neighbors.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Yeah.

Jemele Hill: And unfortunately with all of the divisiveness that comes out of the, the White House, it’s like we’ve taken on, in a very negative way, America versus everybody, and it’s like, nah, it’s not really meant to actually be that way.

Yeah. Um, we can still protect the things that matter without having to be assholes. Like, those things are not, they’re not mutually exclusive. Yeah. It’s like we don’t have to be this way. And so, um, I’m hoping that the presence of this Cup and being here has a rub off effect that, that doesn’t just disappear once the World Cup is over.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Absolutely. I- you know, there are controversies still within this World Cup, especially around, um, federations like Iran who qualified for the World Cup, uh, but Iranian women are still locked out of watching at stadiums back home. Is it America’s position, FIFA’s position, players, fans’ role to speak out on these things?

Especially, um, in a tournament that is placing inclusion at the forefront of its, of its branding. Is, is somebody supposed to weigh in on that contradiction?

Jemele Hill: Yeah, I, I think somebody should because, uh, this, it is funny, I just had this conversation earlier with somebody today as we were discussing this whole Jay-Z Target thing, right?

Lord

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: have mercy.

Jemele Hill: It’s, I know, right? I was like, “Ugh, another one,” right? But, um, the thing is, like, y- you can, once you make inclusiveness part of your brand and part of- Mm-hmm … your selling point as a world game, then you, you then by default you should take on the responsibility of calling out what is obviously- Yeah

wrong. Yeah. It’s like you can’t make it a part of your brand and be like, “Oh, but I don’t want anything to do with it when I actually have to talk about something critical and tough and uncomfortable.” Like, no. And not to mention FIFA officials, by the way, also taking Iranian flags from the crowd, which I don’t know what that’s all about.

I think that inherent hypocrisy has got to be cal- called out, and sports is actually kind of the perfect place to do it-

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Yeah …

Jemele Hill: in the sense of like, you know, when you look at the different blend of people that are watching this World Cup, it’s like you’re able to have a conversation in the backdrop of that that is very different than having it at the UN or having it other places because there’s a shared community that sports automatically builds.

Mm-hmm. And inside of that shared community is where I think you can see people understand the humanity of people a little bit differently than- Mm-hmm … than they might have otherwise. Um, you know, it, it, I mean, you’re wearing the Knicks shirt. I think that’s really what made the Knicks’ whole championship run so beautiful- Yeah

is seeing the community that they would build. Yeah. Like, you know, to see people outside of bodegas watching on, on screens- That’s right … on makeshift screens and projectors that were projecting the im- the, the game up against brick buildings, and like the community of it all. Yeah. And so sports is doing itself a disservice if they don’t take advantage of the community that the sport naturally builds to say, “Hey, by the way, while you’re loving this World Cup doing this, maybe you should think about who’s still locked out of access to like a basic human rights.”

Mm-hmm. Like not being able to watch the game-

Dr. Brittney Cooper: Mm-hmm …

Jemele Hill: is, um, there’s a human touchpoint there. Like one of the best articles that I’ve read in the last week, again reverting it back to the Knicks, and this is in the way that sports can get you to thinking about things differently-

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Yeah …

Jemele Hill: is I follow this, um, independent media outlet and read it, um, often called the, um, the Prison, Prison Journalism Project.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. So these are inmates who write about not what life is like on the inside, but also what life is like for them seeing the outside from the inside. Mm-hmm. And one of the best stories that was written about this week is how the Knicks fans who are incarcerated, how they were experiencing the championship run- Yes

and what it meant to them. And see, through that, because you know we have a certain picture of who’s an inmate, and you know what that picture is- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm … and what they don’t deserve, and it’s okay to dehumanize them and not treat them like actual human beings. And I realize that there’s accountability.

I understand all that stuff. But the whole point is- It gets you to thinking differently about a group of people because you’re using sports to do it. That’s right. And the World Cup has that same opportunity to do that. So yes, it is incumbent on them. That’s not to say that every time you turn into the match they gotta list off all the grievances of all the countries- Sure

and all the, the bullshit that they do. Sure. But I think that there is specific moments where we can use sports as a platform to bring about conversation about something bigger.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Yeah. I think it’s so interesting, before we go, that as we zoom out, the popularity of the W, an incredibly diverse set of fans for the World Cup this year, this Knicks win, which, like, I mean, New York City’s on a generational run.

I’m very happy for them. Even Charles Oakley got a shout-out in front of the owner that banned him- I know … from MSG from- I love it … Mayor Mamdani, right? Like- Yes … we’re seeing so many kinda beautiful moments be unearthed. In some ways I feel like because politics is so dismal, especially domestically, it feels like sports are taking on this bigger role because it’s giving people hope.

But it also, to your point, is an allegory for societal situations and a form of protest and resistance. And I’m just curious before we close, are there ways that you are hoping the powers that be, the policymakers, the folks who set not just culture, but, um, the societal agenda learn from these moments of sports?

I mean, watching, watching Mamdani use the Knicks run as Uh, an opportunity to display his people first policy orientation through-

Jemele Hill: Mm-hmm …

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: the accessible watch parties and people being able to get close to MSG and, you know, I mean, basically sending out a, “Hey big head” text about when the parade was gonna be.

That actually felt like it could be a message to what politicians and politics could be if we viewed it through a different lens.

Jemele Hill: Yeah. I, I mean, I, I’ve just really enjoyed seeing his political rise because I think now, to your point Brit, is that it is, one, it’s not only, um, showing that there’s still, there’s still power in imagination.

Like in order- Mm-hmm … for you to do it, you gotta imagine it differently. And that’s exactly- That’s right … what he did. And I think a lot of politicians, they may mean well, but they get locked- Mm-hmm … into a very narrow cookie cutter poli- political vision. And it’s like, yeah, they can call him a bunch of names.

They could be like, “Oh, but the Muslim,” and then, and what he’s showing is that y’all are scared of stupid stuff. Mm. What matters is what, how am I executing in this job and using the full powers at my disposal to change basic things. Yeah. I mean, who would’ve thought … It, it is amazing how he makes things so simple because it’s like, yeah, maybe if you paid workers more money, all that snow remo- removal would happen.

Like, why are we giving away all this money to, like, have the snow removal? Yo, just pay my man down the street $30 an hour and he’ll take care of it. There it is.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Come on now.

Jemele Hill: Like, it, it’s the simplest plan in the world. Yeah. Right? And even with the Knicks celebration, like he kn- he knows Knicks fans. He know they off the hook.

Yes. This man put fake buses on the street so they could destroy them. I was like, “That dude gets it.” He said He like, “They gonna tear shit up. Let ’em tear it up.”

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: We needed to, we needed to get rid of this anyway. You helping us-

Jemele Hill: Right …

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: get the message.

Jemele Hill: He basically made, you know, that area, like close to Times Square, he turned it into- Yeah

one big rage room because he knew. And I was just like, “That dude gets it.” I love that he has used this Knicks run to frankly endear himself. Seeing the reception that Mamdani is getting at these games- That’s right … and just being among the people. Like, he is, when I was at the Liberty game, um, uh, m- maybe like a month or so ago, and he came through there, and I’m telling you, that dude was like a rock star up in there.

I was like, “Oh, yeah.” Yeah. They, they mess with him. Yeah. They mess with him. So it’s like he could be the best mayor that people have seen in a long time up in there. I was like, man, I, I- But I love that New York learned a lesson ’cause I- Yeah … every time I saw Eric Adams talk, I was like, “And y’all coulda had Maya Wiley.

Why?” Could you imagine- “

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Pourquoi?

Jemele Hill: Pourquoi?” … if he was

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: mayor when the Knicks won? I

Jemele Hill: know. It would’ve been- Oh my God …

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: such utter foolishness.

Jemele Hill: Yes. Just foolishness. And I’ma call it, you know what? Maybe the Knicks, they were dynamic in the playoffs. I don’t know if they would’ve been able to overcome Eric Adams and Jims- and Jim, uh, uh, James Dolan.

I don’t know if they could’ve overcome them both. That’s like-

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: But now they got Mamdani, they got Jordyn Woods bag. They got- Yep … Karl Anthony-Towns. They got everything they need. Anything is possible.

Jemele Hill: Anything is possible.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Jemele Hill, you are brilliant and hilarious as always.

Thank you for joining us to talk a little bit of sports, a little bit of gender, a little bit of race, a little bit of politics, and always to talk about remaining undistracted. We’ll see you soon.

Jemele Hill: All right, I appreciate you. And then, you know, I’m glad to fill in for Tiffany Cross. I appreciate that.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: You know, Tiffany, Tiffany will be back soon.

She’s gonna be upset that you took her sports slot, but I- I’ll- Yeah … smooth it over with her. It’s fine.

Jemele Hill: Okay.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: All right, y’all. I’m joined once again today for our untrending news by our group chat bestie, author and gender and women’s studies professor, Dr. Brittney Cooper. What’s up, Coop?

Dr. Brittney Cooper: What’s up, B squared?

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Listen, uh, this week you already know we gotta talk about the Obamas. Last week was a very Black week. Juneteenth happened, but it was particularly Black in Chicago because the opening of the Barack Obama Presidential Center was done with, uh, extravagance. It was quite a grand affair. The Obamas were, of course, joined by all the living presidents except he who shall not be named.

Uh, Michelle Obama gave a pitch perfect speech with some excellent comedic timing as she’s known to do, and I like that she’s feeling a little free to do it. There were lots of made for TV moments, including George W. Bush bringing Obama a box of Altoids, her boo, W. Um- It called back to when the internet was shocked to find out, of course, that the two of them were on friendly terms when he passed her an Altoid at John McCain’s funeral back in 2018.

Like, it was a little corny, it was a little hokey, but most of the internet loved it. But it does raise the question of whether or not we need to be showing any love or any fondness toward Republicans at all during this moment of political upheaval in the country. I know that the Overton window has moved, but I’m old enough to remember who W was to all of us, and just how many children got left behind, Coop.

What do you think?

Dr. Brittney Cooper: I mean, listen, there’s no love lost, uh, between me and W. And in fact, in so many ways, he’s the architect of the misery that we’re experiencing now. He’s the person who appointed John Roberts to the Supreme Court. It’s the Roberts Court that has decimated, um, uh, all of our civil rights gains, uh, in the swiftness of this century.

So, you know, I think we can name that. I think we can name how his handling of 9/11 led us into two decades of war- Mm-hmm … um, both messes that Democrats had to clean up. Um, and yet I also wanna offer that I just think that shit is complicated, and that when you’re sitting there- Yeah … next to someone, like the demand that Michelle perform our political outrage toward him, I think is not fair.

And I also think that there is no win for her if she does that, right? Nothing. Because she also has a narrative about her that she had to overcome, which is this notion of the angry Black woman. Um, and you know, and a lot of her ability to sort of own and command the space has been her fighting from a space underneath all of those- That’s right

societal projections of her. And I also think that we live in a world where people act like they don’t go to work with coworkers every single day, and bosses- Now see … every single day who have different political beliefs than they do, and that they can’t- Yeah … be cordial, civil, and even friendly.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: This is exactly what I thought about.

‘Cause how many of us go to work every single day and pass Altoids or have inside jokes with people who, like, outside of work hours we are not finna kick it. I, uh, we don’t- Yeah … vote the same, we don’t think the same, we don’t have the same taste in music. I don’t go where you go, you don’t go where I go.

Right. But from 9:00 to 5:00- Right … we, we keep it cute at the very least. I also just think that, like- Part of what you’re saying about the fact that she can’t win is so true. I want us to remember that people are constantly asking Michelle Obama to run for president. Now, this is proof positive that she should never run for president because people clearly don’t listen to Black women, ’cause she’s said a million times, “I don’t wanna be president.”

So stop trying to recruit that lady to a job that she don’t wanna do. Right. Because you all swear that you wanna give Black women the top job, and then you don’t do it when you have the chance. But anyway, I think it’s, I think that’s relevant because she’s consistently polled as one of the most popular political figures, if not the most, out of all of them.

And so she’s constantly walking this really fine line, and enjoying that level of, um, admiration from people has been positive for candidates. Like, let’s be really clear. Her being popular and then showing up on the stump for certain people, showing up with When We All Vote and, and all of the work that she’s doing around voter registration, like, it matters that people like her so that when she says, “Hey, go vote, or think about voting for this person,” that they actually listen to her.

And if she gave, you know, W the hand, like maybe we all wanna… Or the finger, that maybe some people wanted to give. Like, I don’t know that she could actually be out here exercising that kind of power and influence that we very much need her to exercise. So it is complicated. It’s highly nuanced. I don’t know any women at work that don’t understand having to be cool with somebody that you, uh, might not always agree with.

And then of course there were detractors that were like, well, they don’t feel like the Obamas have good politics either, so everybody’s gonna be mad on something. Mm-hmm. About something.

Dr. Brittney Cooper: Yeah.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: No, but like- But at least the breath was fresh.

Dr. Brittney Cooper: Yeah. Okay? And- Yeah, you know, look, I mean, the other side of that is, and by that same logic, the fact that she is friends with him also means that if she were to run, run for president, she would lose because it would be held up as evidence of her political duplicity- Yeah

and the ways in which she’s a centrist and the ways in which the Democrats and the Republicans are not any different. Like, we can already write the arguments. They are already set up in our head. So predictable. You know? Mm-hmm. And so I just think that she has to live her life, and I also think we gotta remember that as much as we identify with Michelle Obama, her life is not our life.

And the folks who are in that small cadre of people who have been- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm … at the highest levels of American power have an experience. And look, and, and frankly, I think that they’re probably a support group because whatever- Yeah … George Bush was or wasn’t, he is not Donald Trump. No. I don’t care what anybody says.

And so I imag- I was, I was really sitting in my house going, “Ooh, I wonder what it was like in the green room,” and were they like, “Well, how are you coping?” Mm. “Because what did this man do today?” And- Mm … ’cause they’re watching the, the whole of the 20th-century American project be destroyed day by day, and they understand the danger literally better than- Yeah

anyone else in the country. Yeah. And they have to sit around now as private citizens knowing what they know and watch it happen. And while I don’t agree with many of them on stage in the ways that they have handled many of the… and varied aspects of American foreign policy-

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Yeah …

Dr. Brittney Cooper: what I can say is that I always came from the idea that they cared about America, and that they wanted us to be, wanted us- No

to be okay and to be safe. And I don’t have that same- Basics … set of assumptions about the current leadership, right?

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Not at all. Our second item, which is a very sober one, this past Wednesday marked the four-year anniversary of the Supreme Court’s Dobbs versus Jackson decision, which undid the constitutional right to abortion that had stood for almost five decades under Roe versus Wade, and sent the issue of abortion rights back to the states.

And we all know what happened then. 13 states have fully banned abortion except in a few instances to save the mother’s life. Seven states have banned abortion after six to 12 weeks of pregnancy. There have been horrific stories of women who have died or been put in, placed in grave danger because of these bans, and doctors’ confusion around all of these new laws.

And at the same time, this has also strengthened other networks, uh, for receiving care, and made it really clear that Americans do not want these bans on the books. Lots of folks got out and enshrined the right to an abortion in their, uh, state constitutions in places where folks thought it was frankly impossible because that Dobbs decision animated a whole lot of people.

So it wasn’t a pure defeat. But four years later, I’m curious, Coop, what you think of the legacy of the impact of the Dos- Dobbs decision and how it’s impacted the abortion movement looking back?

Dr. Brittney Cooper: It has been nothing short of devastating, and part of this is because Roe versus Wade was never what women deserved in the first place.

It was- Yeah … in itself a fairly limited measure that said that a woman could have the right to privacy, that she had the right to make decisions with her doctor about her healthcare. Yeah. And under the banner of her rights of privacy, then if abortion was a medical decision she needed to make, she was allowed to do that.

And now that has been taken away, and we have seen, we have seen local, um, municipalities arresting people. They have tried to arrest people for leaving the state to go to other states to get abortion care- Oh, right … as though you can track people’s surveillance. Um, they have arrested a father in my home state of Louisiana for shipping, um, you know, medical abortion drugs to his daughter, um, who- Mm-hmm

needed them, right? Um, they have also tried to, uh, use the fo- weaponize the foster care system against parents who, um, who assist their children in getting abortion care, saying that it makes them unfit parents. That’s just s- a few of the ways that they are weaponizing the kind of carceral state against- Yeah

you know, against folks. And so my, my issue, among many, is this is a f- this is also a function of Christian nationalism meets patriarchy, right? Yeah. And so there, this imposition of Christian nationalist ideology on everybody is deeply dangerous, and it is also dangerous for the white women who are its primary adherents, right?

Hello. And at the same time, one of the things we keep missing in this country is that this fascist takeover of the country is not just about race, it’s not just about capitalism and class and money, it is also about patriarchy. It is about controlling reproduction. Every system of power wants to control- Mm-hmm

money, wants to control time, wants to control who has access to power and property, and wants to cont- control reproduction, because- Yeah … in doing so they control the future. And w- you know, this is a thing that we have missed, and we think that, like, feminism is some random errant movement of- … you know, wild ladies that want to burn bras.

And all- Woo! … that feminists have ever been saying is that if you cannot have bodily autonomy over whether or not to have children, then essentially you exist in a state of slavery. And the- That’s right … last thing I will say is that it is Black women specifically who created the framework for reproductive justice.

Amen. And that framework is very simple. It says that we have the right to have children, to not have children, and to parent the children that we have in safe and healthy environments.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: It

Dr. Brittney Cooper: really should be that

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: simple. This should not be up for debate. It should not be symbol- b- because it’s Black women who designed it, of course everybody feels some type of way about it.

I’m really thankful for groups like In Our Own Voice, um, who have helped people codify what reproduction, what reproductive justice should look like in this day and age, and how we can talk about it with each other, how we can push on it legislatively, how we can really build a movement around understanding that abortion is a part of the issue, but it’s not the entire issue.

Still, if there is no access to abortion, abortion pills, medical abortions, surgical abortions, we cannot reasonably talk about reproductive justice. It’s interesting that, uh, abortion pills have soared in popularity, especially in the states where, um, those, uh, restrictive bans have really put, um, people in danger.

And now, of course, the future of the abortion pill is, um, uh, u- under duress. Um, and that access is uncertain after a lower court in Louisiana ruled that they can’t be prescribed via telehealth, and the Supreme Court actually issued an injunction to keep the telehealth abortion pills accessible while the case makes its way through the appeals process.

So right now the pills are safe, but this should really be waking people up who, like you said, just think that feminism has nothing to do with them, or that this is a red state/blue state thing. ‘Cause when we’re talking about crossing state lines for care, when we’re talking about access to prescriptions over telehealth, everybody is in danger, and abortion is a medical procedure that one in four adult women will have in their lifetime.

I just can’t wait for the day when we get to the point where this is no longer, um, a manufactured, polarizing political football. Yeah. Because to be clear, it was manufactured. Yes. Abortion is as old as the human state is. Yes. Abortion was, and Roe versus Wade was selected as the target when the segregationists lost their fight to keep Black kids out of their schools and Black people out of their facilities.

That’s right. They needed to grow the Christian right and build a stronger political movement, and they said, “We can recruit all the Catholics if we stand up against abortion.” That’s right. So they created this conservative Christian wave that we’ve continued to see that is deep into the Christian nationalism that we’re facing right now.

But all of those roots, Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, all of those folks, they got on the phone and they said, “Listen, if, if we’re not gonna win by keeping things segregated, then this is how we’re gonna win.” This was manufactured, and we’re, we’re missing just how p- how much a normal part of society this actually is, and how much access should actually be guaranteed for everybody.

Dr. Brittney Cooper: And it makes me really angry when that disinformation campaign that they’re engaged in then comes into Black communities, because they will use it- Mm … as a political football against us. They are not doing the things that make it possible for families to actually be okay, and that is why- Yeah … more people are, are opting out of having children younger.

And so this has had, this has been devastating, but the only way that we’re going to be able to stand against it is to recognize that at the… I don’t even think it’s sufficient anymore, the, the, the old explanations we used to have, like, you know, that’s your personal decision. No. We actually need a better understanding.

That’s right. And that better understanding is that abortion care is some of the safest medical care you can get. That’s why you can typically do it as an outpatient procedure, unless it’s in the case of an emergency. Typically, the folks who need abortion care are people who already have children, so this idea that folks do not value children or that they’re irresponsible- Hello

is also completely ridiculous, right? And so this is just a normal part of what it means to be a human being that can bear children. That’s right. And this should be a part of the spectrum of care, and when it is not, you continue to have all of these tr- these preventable tragedies of women bleeding out, of women having to wait until their bodies go septic before they can access abortions when their bodies are not whol- you know, re- are rejecting pregnancies.

Yeah. All of that is, is not just irresponsible and rooted in disinformation, but it is also deeply inhumane, and it should be illegal. That’s right. And I think- Uh, but so we just need to be clear

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: I get frustrated with people who, as you bring up those kind of examples, say that, um, you know, we shouldn’t talk in these extremes ’cause it scares people, or, you know, we, we need to have a, a more rational or reasonable conversation about it than to talk about those cases. But you forced us into this position where nobody wants to have a rational and reasonable conversation about it.

Because when women or, and people with uteruses are walking in to get care, they are seeing some of the most dastardly signs, some of the most wild insults, right? Some of the most extreme imagery coming at them when they’re simply trying to make a decision about their healthcare, an informed decision, a careful decision about their health- healthcare.

And so, like, if you forced our hand to this place where, A, this is happening to people, and then you, B, tell us it’s uncivilized to talk about it, what are we really doing here? I think that the, the, the extreme nature that people want to, um, reject around this conversation means that we’re not honest about the str- extreme nature of our current condition, and how much, um, these restrictions and these bans are putting people in danger.

To be clear, when people were already in danger before. Because like you said, Roe was the floor. It was not the ceiling. It was deeply imperfect. Democrats are gonna have to get serious, at the very least, about stating that they wanna get clear on reinstating Roe, and then building from there, because, uh, there’s not a path forward without it.

I’m thinking as we close about time that we got to spend with legendary abortion rights activist Cecile Richards here on Undistracted shortly before she passed away. Mm. She was just as fierce and raw, as honest, and, and as honest as ever. And I wanted to revisit a moment from that conversation. Doug, roll the clip.

N/A: We’re gonna have to fight this on the ground and have a national right to bodily autonomy that affects all 50 states, not just the ones that ha- have the, uh, benefit of being able to pass it through legislation.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: Cecile, we miss you, and we are so grateful that your courage and your continued tenacity, even to the very end when your voice was shaking and you were just fighting to live, stayed focused on freedom for all of us.

We appreciate you. And y’all, thanks for being undistracted. Coop, we’ll see you real soon.

Dr. Brittney Cooper: See you soon.

Brittany Packnett Cunninham: So listen, y’all, I gotta admit, I’m exhausted. One of my children has an ear infection, the other one is completely bouncing off of the walls. It’s summertime, I’m hot, I’m perimenopausal, I’m postpartum, and I’m an insomniac with ADHD.

I am burnt out. So honestly, watching the NBA Finals for me was a respite. It was something I could do and completely turn off my brain and just enjoy and root for the 53-year underdog. I’ll be totally honest with y’all, I wasn’t even interested in the finals, not for the MNBA as it were, until we got those incredible legendary bars.

My Mayor Muslim, my bagel Jewish, my Christian Dior, Knicks in four. They got it in five, but that’s not the point. The point is that it was clearly a cultural moment that called all of us into being with each other, to being excited about something for once, to being glad for people who have been waiting for five decades to see this victory, to see Spike Lee and Olivia Benson, Mariska Hargitay flooding the, the court and getting excited.

And, and there was something about that joy that I think we were all glad to hold onto for a second, even if we weren’t tried and true Knicks fans, because a lot of us are tired. So let’s keep finding those moments of joy that not only help us get a smile, but also break through for the conversations that are worth happening.

Let’s go get free.

Our executive producers are Cindi Leive and myself, Brittany Packnett Cunningham.

Our producer at Collective Media is Douglas Forte with supervising producer Ryan Jones.

Our supervising producer at The Meteor is Taylor Hosking and artwork is by Bianca Alvarez.

This episode was produced with support from Liberation Ventures and The Meteor Fund.

You can follow me on all social media @mspackyetti and our incredible team @themeteor.