Episode 2: “We Elect Partners, Not Saviors”: Rep. Ayanna Pressley and Dr. Brittney Cooper
Please note: This transcript has been automatically generated.
Brittany:
Hey y’all. I hope you’ve been finding some joy this week. Now y’all have heard me say it before, and if you are kind enough to keep listening, you’ll hear me say it many, many times. everything. And I do mean everything comes down to power. Now I ain’t a genius, but my neuros spicy brain does love a pattern or pattern If you’re my grandma. And every time I look up from history to the present day, I personally see one power struggle after another. Someone is determined to keep their power by any means necessary because they’ve been taught they’re entitled to it and someone else is determined to find some of their own. Now I know my fellow pattern gals see this one everywhere. White supremacist patriarchy protecting is power through lax gun laws and restrictive abortion bans, Cheeto and Couch Boy holding desperately onto their whittling, dwindling, everyday disappearing power through digital disinformation and sneaky little lawsuits to undermine the election. And of course, hip hop moguls using their dollars to silent survivors and hide their crimes. Thankfully, for some of them unsuccessfully, all of those are struggles of power against those they see not as less than them, but as threats to them.
Brittany:
But you know what? That’s good. I want them to know we’re threats. I want them to feel us coming and quake in fear. I want them to know that every single time we stand in our power, we are coming to tear their kingdoms of ego and alters of supremacy down. You should know that our power is divine and yours is weak. That’s because traditional power insists it’s a force to hold over somebody. A transformational power knows well that its function is to set somebody free. Your lies are built on beds of sand. And our truth has found foundation and justice. I told y’all I’m obsessed with power. I’m finishing a whole book about it. I’m not just singing kumbaya to the end, y’all. I’m trying to put my dukes up and make sure that we win. Power is the key and we are wise not to dismiss power as the reckless thing they use against us, but the loving thing that makes us stronger together. So here’s two. Redefining power for ourselves by ourselves and using it with all the loving force that we got. On today’s show, I sit down with Congresswoman Ayanna Presley and Dr. Brittany Cooper. We’re getting personal about our complicated feelings around this political moment. Real personal.
Ayanna:
We have to be strategic. We have to radically dream. And we have to understand in the great words of Stacey Abrams that we do not elect saviors. Hello, I grew up in a small storefront church on the south side of Chicago, pastor by the Reverend James e Eccles, Rayna Sean Missionary Baptist Church. I know who my savior is and it is not any elected official.
Brittney:
Everyone is very comfortable with black women doing what I like to call the custodial work of democracy.
Brittany:
Come on.
Brittney:
We don’t respect them as the power brokers. We don’t respect them as the leaders.
Brittany:
But first the news.
Brittany:
Ooh, welcome back to UNT Trending News. We have had quite the week y’all, so let’s just jump right into it. First, I wanna talk to you about a young black woman in Georgia who faced an untimely unjust death. She might still be alive were it not for the draconian abortion bans that are in effect all across the country. Amber, Nicole Thurman, a 28-year-old medical assistant and young mother had her whole life ahead of her. She and her 6-year-old son had recently moved into an apartment of their own and she had plans to go to nursing school. ProPublica reports that Amber had already begun to hit her stride when she found out she was pregnant again. And to protect her stability, she drove hundreds of miles to North Carolina to seek an abortion. The clinic was full of other women doing the same thing. And after being prescribed two common medications used in non-surgical abortions, Amber had a rare complication and her body went into shock.
Brittany:
The Georgia ER closest to her home denied her the care she needed because the extremely common procedure she required was now a state felony. It can land a doctor a decade in prison. Now, technically the law allows for the procedure in the event that the life of the mother is at risk. But Amber’s story painfully illustrates why that is absolute. Amber waited for the operation for 20 hours while her organs failed. By the time she made it onto the operating table, it was too late. And now also too late. A state committee has ruled her death, quote preventable. This marks the first time a post roe abortion related death has officially and publicly been classified this way. So just one question. How many more have to die? Because Amber is one too many. So did y’all watch the Emmys? It’s okay if you were too busy. . There’s a lot going on. But Shogun made Emmy’s history as the first ever non-English language series to win for best drama. Liza Colon Zaz, the beloved line Cook from the bear. Ugh, I love her and I love that show. She was the first Latina woman to win an Emmy four best supporting actress in the comedy series.
Liza clip:
And And to all the Latinas who were Who looking at me, keep believing and vote, vote for your rights. Thank you. Thank you.
Brittany:
But I have to say, I was disappointed to see reservation dogs in their run with zero Emmys like the entire series. It was a stark reminder to me that we need to see support and celebrate us, those of us on the margins, because we’re still important even. And especially when we are not trendy to the mainstream. Our stories matter. And actor de Faroh want a tie from reservation Dogs made sure that award or no award, the stories of missing and murdered indigenous women were told by donning the symbol of a red painted hand print across his mouth. Finally
News Clip:
Breaking news as we come on the air music mogul, Sean Diddy Combs arrested in a New York City hotel by federal agents with Homeland Security investigations after being indicted by a grand jury.
Brittany:
This story is trending, but let’s discuss what gets overlooked when folks like Diddy p Diddy love Puff Daddy, whatever he wants to be called to today, when folks like him get arrested, it can trigger things for his survivors and all of us survivors. And yet we hardly remember to cover the people whose bravery opened the door to these conversations in the first place. From r Kelly to Russell Simmons to Diddy, there have been a host of black women and girls whose pain still haunts them, in part because we still harm them. Victim blaming is even more prevalent when the survivors are women of color who have been repeatedly sexually demonized by stereotypes in society. Those stereotypes to say we were asking for it or digging for our own gold. So to Cassie Ventura, to Dawn Richard, to Drew Dixon, to Andrea, to Tiffany, to Riel and all of the other women and people who have broken the silence and made a way, we are covering you in prayers of peace and protection. And we are forever grateful for your courage. We’ll be right back after this break.
Brittany:
You know that saying, hurt people, hurt people. Well, what if we looked at America like that? You know, like what makes it do the things it does? That’s the idea behind a new podcast from the good folks at the media and my Tony Award winning friend Sarah Jones, her new show, America Who Hurts You, puts our country on the therapist couch. ’cause you know our girl needs help. Every week, Sarah and her unique cast of characters sit down with a range of guests like Laverne Cox w Kamal, bell, Jane Fonda, to dig into the root cause of this country’s issues and how we’re going to heal her up so we can just live our lives. If you’re looking for hard hitting, yet surprisingly hilarious conversations about race, religion, politics, and everything else you’re not supposed to discuss at the dinner table, subscribe to America who hurts you wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes drop every Wednesday.
Brittany:
We are back now. Three weeks ago, Kamala Harris became the first black and south Asian woman to receive the presidential nomination from a major party. And our joy has been complex because that same night we watched Palestinian voices be denied an opportunity to speak from that very stage. And we’ve had to watch Kamala Harris endure the additional tax that comes from being a black woman in leadership. So to sort through my own thoughts and feelings, I sat down with two people that I truly love and admire. Massachusetts Congresswoman Ayanna Presley is one of the most progressive members of Congress. She’s continued to stand firm in her convictions. Even as other members of the squad. Her colleagues have faced severe consequences, including losing their seats for taking a stand on the things they care about. And Professor Brittany Cooper, Brittany Squared, we like to call ourselves, she’s an academic focusing on the intersection of race and gender. She’s also part of our undistracted crew, and you’ll be hearing lots more from them on the show. Her book, eloquent Rage is a must read. Here’s our conversation about Kamala Harris, black women in Power echoes of the 1968 Chicago Convention and More live just a few weeks ago from the floor of the DNC where yes, we were all wearing white. Hey family. How we doing?
Brittany:
Thank you so much for being here. I’m Brittany Pna Cunningham. I’m the host of Undistracted, so I’m warn y’all right now. Y’all might as well go ahead and get comfortable because these are my friends in real life. Okay? These are my actual sister friends, my sister cousins, and we’re gonna have a sister conversation. And here’s why. Because we are experiencing a particular spotlight on black womanhood in this moment. I am grateful to be alive to see this, to watch the sun shine on a black and south Asian woman being nominated to head a major party in this country city. And I’m also clear that there are no perfect politicians because there are no perfect people. And what I see with her is an opportunity to make progress. But that requires all of us also to have a nuanced understanding of a support for and a covering for black women in leadership. So I wanna have this conversation with two women who know what the triumph is of being a black woman in leadership, but also who know what the cost is of being a black woman in leadership. But before we get to the hard stuff, Dr. Cooper, first I wanna come to you. How are you feeling about what we are about to see tonight? We’re all dressed in our, our white, we’re ready for the moment. Okay. You got the Howard sweatshirt, this Howard sweater on and everything. Okay. You know,
Brittney:
Listen, I’m um, I’m elated. We’ve worked for this. We deserve some joy. When, uh, president Biden dropped out of the race and there was this moment of everyone feeling like, what’s gonna happen now? And then I just saw black women do the thing they do. They gathered everyone together within hours of his announcement and gave us our marching orders. And all of a sudden there was excitement. And so I feel excitement. I feel joy. And, and one of the reasons that I’m insistent on my right to feel joy is not because I have left my brain at the door. Not because I have left my critique at the door, my radical feminist politics at the door, but rather because we deserve to have a politics that does not make us feel downtrodden. And on top of that, sometimes folks make you feel like you’re a fool because you believe in something.
Brittney:
Come on. But I don’t think that there’s any possibility of building the new world that we want to see unless we are willing to take the risk of believing that it is possible. And that means that when you are taking the risk, the risk is that you might also be made a fool of. So I am demanding, claiming and fully experiencing my joy because that is the biggest risk. The thing the other side wants to steal is our right to our joy. And I’m not gonna let them have it. The world didn’t give it to me. And the world ain’t
Brittany:
Gonna take it away. Ain’t take it away. That’s right. That’s right. Our dear Congresswoman. How are you feeling about today? I mean, we’re live at the Democratic National Convention 2024. Uh, we’re here in Chicago, which of course has a very storied past, shall we say, when it comes to democratic conventions. And yet as much history has come before us, the history we’re making tonight, we’ve never seen
Ayanna:
It is a, a heady and overwhelming feeling in the best kind of way. I was going to say it’s surreal, but I think that denies us of the reality. It isn’t surreal. It is real. It is attainable. It is within our reach. Speaking of, of joy, I think that joy is an entitlement. You know, we, we have allowed, uh, things, uh, certain words should be co-opted to have this negative connotation. Yeah. I I think that, uh, joy, unbridled joy, unbridled black joy should be a birthright. We are entitled to it. And as someone who’s been in Congress the last five years coming in under a government shutdown governing in the midst of two impeachments and insurrection, a global pandemic, I think we are entitled to some joy. Yeah, that’s right. So I am going to to claim it, uh, fully. So yeah, it’s, we’re on the precipice of history and it’s so rare that you understand that you are actually making history in real time.
Brittany:
Here’s the thing, I want us to be very clear that that history was not promised. Right? We sit here 60 years after Fannie Lou Hamer sat in front of the Democratic National Convention Credentials Committee with the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party and demanded to be seated and was denied. Right? She demanded to be seated simply because she wanted the right to be a full citizen of this country and register to vote. And so 60 years after that denial, her cistern will be at that podium, at that lectern accepting that nomination. But in between those 60 years, there’s a whole lot of hands on the plow. Part of why we’re here is because of five black women who we affectionately call the color girls. That’s right. Who have been working in democratic politics for 40 years. Yes. Who started with a young radical Jesse Jackson as presidential uh, candidate.
Brittany:
They are running this convention. They are running the, the rules committee. Leah Daughtry, mignon Moore, Donna Brazil, Tina Florna, Yolanda Caraway. And I named their names. Because it’s easy to think that black women in particular can make the impossible happen with just a snap of a finger. I know we look divine, but we are not actually Jesus Christ. Mm-Hmm. . And so there is a phrase people love, right? Black women, come save us, come save democracy, come save us again. And we heard it in 2020, right? We heard it in 2016. And now that there’s a black and south Asian woman actually at the head of the ticket, we’re hearing it more and more. So here’s my question. What room do we actually leave for Kamala Harris and therefore all of us to be a human being in moving through this era?
Ayanna:
just a little Softball.
Brittany:
Softball. I told you we was gonna get into it.
Ayanna:
Okay. So let, lemme see where I wanna get at this. So three things. One, when they mispronounce her name,
Brittany:
That part, which
Ayanna:
Is most certainly on purpose, it is an attempt to erase, an attempt to marginalize, an attempt to malign. But know that that erasure is not just an erasure of her, it’s an erasure of all of us. And as black women, we carry this very unique dichotomy, which is to be hyper visible. Yeah. Which is why we are targeted, why we are surveyed, why we are profiled, uh, why we are called to do the thing. But we are also hyper invisible. And that is why our contributions can be erased. Relegated as a footnote, our pain delegitimized That’s right. From our healthcare system to our, our culture, our society, our politics. And so when we just do the thing all the time, yes, black girl magic is undeniable, but this is black woman work. We have been on the forefront of every movement of freedom. Which is why it is so appropriate that that is the theme.
Ayanna:
Freedom. Freedom and the future. But as black women, we also carry multitudes. That’s right. And so we all, although she is the first, we’ll be the first woman, if we do our job, the first uh, black Asian woman to be president and we dig deep and do our job, um, you know, I think people miss the humanity in us because again, they’re so used to, uh, the utility of us. They’re so used to the labor of us while we are doing the work of centering everyone else’s humanity, of bringing everyone else along of caring multitudes, our own humanity is completely erased.
Brittany:
You know, Brittany, I wanna come to you on this same question, but I wanna ask it a slightly different way because she’s human. She is a black and south Asian woman dealing with all of the stigmas that we all deal with and she’s running to be president of the United States. So holding her to the highest standard is our job as citizens. What are the kinds of things that we need to be doing as citizens to ensure that she has the cover and the pathway to actually do it, knowing full well that the attacks that will come on her if she hits the standard that we’re holding will be five times harder than what everybody else gets.
Brittney:
Kamala Harris will be held to an unreasonable standard of perfection. It is already happening. She not only has been asked to save democracy, we’ve given her what, 75 cool days to do it. She didn’t even get the benefit of a long primary season. Now maybe that might turn out to work for her advantage, but she is going to be given no room for error because the problem when black women get into positions of leadership is precisely what Representative Presley said. Then we become avatars for other people’s projections of who we are rather than getting to be our own human selves. That part. Right. And the thing about it is everyone is very comfortable with black women doing what I like to call the custodial work of democracy. Come on. And that’s no shade to custodial work. I come from generations of women who did domestic work respect. But we are comfortable with black women cleaning up messes, making rooms hospitable, making sure that everything looks the way it’s supposed to look and runs the way it’s supposed to run. But we don’t respect them as the theorist, we don’t respect them as the power brokers. We don’t respect them as the leaders. Then when they get into positions of leadership, then we undermine them. We doubt them. We don’t give them any room to grow. We let these white boys screw up and screw up and screw up again and
Brittany:
Fail up. And they fail
Brittney:
All of the time. Right. Look, I don’t need to come and disrespect President Biden to say this man has had a complicated history in politics as it relates to black people. And so the level of love and flowers he is getting, he has had, he has been in politics longer than I have been alive. And I am a middle aged woman and he has had the opportunity to build a legacy and to get things right and to revise himself and to apologize and to fix it. And what we know is that sisters never get that opportunity. She will get That’s one shot and one that’s right. One shot only. And so the issue here is that she is gonna be held to an unreasonable standard, but she also should be held to a high standard because she’s gonna be the leader of the free world. That’s right. Because she’s gonna be a beacon for a democratic experiment that is very much on the bri of failing. And so what we’ve gotta figure out how to hold as a community is the ability to protect and fight for her and defend her right. To be treated with a level of humanity and grace while not compromising the fact that there are some things that are just right’s and they don’t change’s just because she’s the first black woman to have to deal with the problem. I never
Ayanna:
Wanna follow you on the mic, but I would follow you anywhere if you know what I mean. on the issue of Palestine. Let’s talk about it. I think the issue here is that two things can be true. That’s right. And the reason why black women carry multitudes is because we live in intersectionality. So if people live in complexity, they live in nuance. But culturally, when it comes to government and the people, we present these binary choices and what the ways in which that can do a disservice to movement building is every movement requires three things. Imagination, strategy, and stamina. We have to be strategic, we have to radically dream. And we have to understand in the great words of Stacey Abrams that we do not elect saviors. Hello? That’s right. I grew up in a small storefront church on the south side of Chicago, pastor by the Reverend James e Eccles Haw Missionary Baptist Church.
Ayanna:
I know who my savior is and it is not any elected official. Come on, you elect partners. So the tactical choice that you are making every time the strategic choice that you are making every time is who do you want to be Your partner. Yeah. And that does not mean that you allow them to abdicate their responsibility to lead. It does not mean that you give them cover when you are aggrieved or your people are aggrieved. It means that you push and you hold them accountable. But that cannot be a unique ire just for black women. Come on in these positions. Come on. There is a unique ire that you hold only for black women. Yeah. Who do three times the work and get 10 times the backlash. That’s
Brittney:
Right.
Ayanna:
And it’s exhausting. Yeah.
Brittany:
It has to be. But
Ayanna:
Partnership is accountability. And I do also just wanna underscore what you offer there. Speaking of the erasure of people’s humanity, that is exactly why there needs to be Palestinian voice on this stage. We have to center the humanity of the Palestinian people. We know what it is to be victimized by state sanctioned violence. We know that people move with an emboldened anti-blackness, which is why you never hear about a rise in anti-blackness. ’cause it never leaves. It’s so systemic, it’s so normalized. We are so desensitized to black suffering. You preach. Come on. Well also take it for granted and exploiting what it means to be a black leader. And every day I’m like, can you be black and lead and not be a martyr? Can you not lose your life? Can you not lose your livelihood? Can you not lose your health? Is it possible anyone understands the need to center the humanity of a people when ours has consistently That’s right. Been erased. It will be this black woman. So I’m holding out all hope because 40,000 Palestinians, 16,000 Palestinian children. We need a permanent ceasefire, we need an arms embargo. We need to bring the hostages preach out home
Brittany:
As we work through the word you both just gave us. I wanna add another name to the conversation because when we discuss black women standing on business for community, for justice for the globe, and what can happen as a result of that, I have to bring in the name of my hometown, Congresswoman Cory Bush. Cory Bush did her black job.
Ayanna:
Yes.
Brittany:
Congresswoman Bush stood up for Palestine, stood up for district one, which is my home, stood up for the north side of St. Louis, stood up for reproductive justice so much that she told her own abortion story on the Congress floor. And I’m sitting here trying to hold back tears in my eyes because while it’s been beautiful to see the rally that we’ve seen over the last few weeks around Vice President Harris understanding that if she’s going to be held to the standard, we wanna hold her to that she needs support to get there. I’m also watching so many other black women not experience the same. And so the reason why I ask this question in the frame of Kamala Harris is because it’s easy for us to talk about how we get behind her. We’ve spent a lot less time talking about how we get behind folks like you congresswoman, who stand on business for us every single day and are 10 toes down on that Congress floor.
Brittany:
Right. For the, for the young women who are running for school board against all of those band books. That’s right. For the professors who are willing to tell the truth despite the death threats. I’m talking about you Bri Cooper. Right? That’s right. That’s right. For the activists and organizers who get the, the death threats to our mailbox. I’m talking about my self now. Yes, exactly. So I bring her name into the conversation because it’s all good when we’re riled up and we’re ready to protect black women. But when it comes time people get forgetful. So we’ve talked about what our black woman work has been, what’s everybody else’s work to make sure that we get to the finish line and be clear. Oh, you got that. The finish line is not November the fifth. The finish line is not madam president. That is the starting line. This
Ayanna:
Preacher too. You know, ,
Brittney:
My God, I wanna say three names to you that have become of deep significance in 2024. Dr. Claudine Gay.
Brittany:
Tell it
Brittney:
Representative Cory Bush and Miss Sonya Massey.
Brittany:
My God. That’s
Ayanna:
Right.
Brittney:
That is the arc of black women’s possibility. You have a Harvard president, you have a US congresswoman, you have a sister just living her life. And look at the levels of structural violence that all of them face just for being black women standing in their power. When Sonya Massey looked that officer in the face and said, I rebuke you in the name of Jesus, she called out the evil and she got shot and killed for doing so. And I wanna say that to you because before we talk about finish lines, we gotta talk about what it means to guard us the whole way down the field. Yeah. Down the court to to to get black women’s back, to surround them with protection. One of the things I’m worried about in this moment is the thing we learned with President Obama. Folks be real mad when black folks be successful and they respond to it with levels of political violence that we have never seen.
Brittney:
Yeah. Yeah. And what we have experienced this year is people trying to get black women in check. That’s why I know that Kamala Harris can be the next president. ’cause they’re showing us how afraid they are. That’s right. Of black women standing in their power. That’s, and we have got to not let, don’t be stirred. Right. That’s the first thing. Don’t be, listen, I get death threats. I have been doxed more times than I can count. I have been swatted. I have been sitting in my house chilling, and officers have shown up on a false call. They want to scare us from doing this work. And you know who ain’t scared me? I am not scared. I will not be scared. I will not shut up because that is the evidence that we are actually moving the needle forward
Ayanna:
Building upon that you can’t continue to leave the, the labor to the same people exclusively. Mm-Hmm. We’re so used to black women leading and standing in the gap that that y’all will just not always think you need to be doing the same thing. So we need everyone to stand in the gap in this moment. And here’s the reason why. Several years ago, I had the honor of organizing with indigenous people around an environmental injustice issue. As I was leaving the reservation, an elder said to me, when you leave here, be a better ancestor than descendant. I issue that charge to each one of you to be a better ancestor than descendant. Yeah. And to live. Deliver a love letter to future generations with your actions in this moment. I too believe in the power of the prayer, but I also believe in the power of the adage that when you pray, move your feet. When you pray, move your feet. Feet. So I need you to move your feet, be a better ancestor than descendant. Deliver a love letter to future generations by making sure that Kamala Harris is our next president.
Brittany:
Dr. Cooper, you say you may be having a bad day, but we keep fighting. And I’m not gonna lie to y’all. I woke up this morning and was having a bad day. Oh,
Ayanna:
Brittany, we love you so much
Brittany:
On the day that I wanted to have the best day because I knew that in the denial that our Palestinian brothers and sisters guide yesterday, we were living below our promise. In the end. These two things are mutually exclusive for me. And that when I got that divine feeling that more than we ever imagined was possible with this election, it was not just about electing someone whom I deeply admire and have developed a relationship of honesty and transparency for which I am grateful. But I also saw in it the possibility to usher in a generation, an era of morality in this country that is held up by the people, not just a single person. And I was worried this morning, waking up despite all the phone calls, despite all the work, despite all the text messages. I was worried this morning that people’s concern with political calculus was getting in the way of actually realizing that in this moment, the political calculus and the moral imperative match.
Brittany:
And so I wanna thank you’s the electoral math and the moral imperative match here. There are people who want to have her back. There are people who want to be good Democrats and they just want the Democrats to be good to them. And so in this moment, I find myself grateful because I feel like I can have a good day again because my sisters, you have reminded all of us and I do mean all of us of our responsibility and our opportunity, and most importantly, our privilege to get to live long enough and breathe enough breaths to change this thing from here until the future we deserve. Bless you. Thank you. We love you. Thank you. This is Undistracted. Let’s go get free y’all. Thank you. Let’s go get free. All I really want is for all of us to own our own power, to keep it a bug. I’m desperate for it. For us to own our innate power to transform and create worlds from our most radical imaginations. It is not impossible. Not if we choose it and wield it with the love and discipline strategy that can battle and can build. Let’s go.
Brittany:
That’s it for today. But y’all know never for tomorrow. Undistracted is a production of the Media and Wonder Media Network. Our producers are Taylor Williamson and Hannah Bottom with production assistance from Lauren Williams. Our editor is Grace Lynch. And thanks also to Natalia Ramirez and Sarah Culley. Our executive producers at the media are Cindy Levy and myself and our executive producer at Wonder Media Network is Jenny Kaplan. You can follow me at Miss Pac Yeti on all social media and our team at the media. Subscribe to undistracted and rate and review us y’all on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or all the places you find your favorite podcasts. Thanks for listening. Thanks for being, and as always, thanks for doing. I’m Brittany Pacnet Cunningham. Let’s go get free.