Ava DuVernay Wants Us to Dig Deeper
Please note: This transcript has been automatically generated.
BRITTANY:
Hey y’all, it’s Brittany here and you all know how important it is to me that every voice and story has a place in history. Well, I’m here to share some staggering statistics brought to you by our episode sponsor, Penn America. An organization that has been on the front lines defending our right to read their latest report reveals a crisis. More than 10,000 books have been banned in the US in the past school year alone. And that’s more than double what we saw last year. Censorship not only erases people’s histories, but also the possibility for our kids to understand the world around them. In honor of national Band Books week later this month, you can go to penn.org/undistracted to donate, get involved and stand up for the freedom to read. Join us and make your voice heard.
BRITTANY:
Hey y’all. Oh my gosh, I have missed y’all so much ’cause it’s really been like a year since we were together. But season three is here and child, we got a lot to catch up on and not on, like what we’ve been up to, which is basically the same stale question I ask when my social anxiety gets really bad at a cocktail party. Like, oh my God, what have you been up to? Oh my gosh, it’s been so long. We should get together really soon knowing full well we are not going to see each other until a year from now at the same cocktail party. Now we <laugh>. We need to catch up on how we’re feeling. ’cause these last 12 months have been the sociopolitical equivalent of a death defying ride at like an unauthorized parking lot carnival. And the Carneys never let us off the rollercoaster.
BRITTANY:
I mean, we have had bright spots of joy. Paris 2024 was absolutely lit. And I will forever be a Sha Careri Richardson stand. I don’t care what anybody says. And you know who else I stand? Resa Tisa, because I absolutely could not take my eyes away from that TikTok series. And I’m very hyped that there’s gonna be a whole TV series about it. I will be watching. We’ve also seen unexpected excitement spring up for a whole lot of people with this candidate change. And with, you know, new love is blind seasons. I personally cannot wait to see the DC one. We’ve really figured out how to create happiness in the ways that we know how, you know, with love and with our people. And on our block and in our group chats, we figured out how to create abundance that we generate ourselves because the world is constantly pretending like the supply is low and they be lying.
BRITTANY:
’cause there really is enough for everybody. We’ve also been experiencing protracted pain. We’ve been in mourning for the, the life and the time that we lost in an ongoing pandemic. And while we’ve been actively up to this very moment navigating the collective pressures of our time, have y’all seen that video of Kamala Harris hugging the crying customer in pennies at Pittsburgh? When the vice president asked her what was wrong, she said, I think you know, if she’s right. We all know for me, that moment wasn’t even about politics. It was about all of us searching for safety and connection because we’ve been desperately reaching for it and it feels so out of reach. It was about the anxiety that comes with constantly asking yourself for your family and your country. What are we gonna do? I mean, on paper, that woman at pennies, and I couldn’t be more different.
BRITTANY:
She’s presumably a boomer. I’m a millennial. She’s rust belt out there in Pennsylvania, and I’m like, Midwest turned East Coast cosmopolitan. She’s white, I’m black. But I think her tears were universal. And for me, Harris’s response was universal and necessary because she said, we gonna be all right. I’m not gonna hold you. When she said it, I didn’t even hear the words coming out of her mouth. I heard the words coming from a booming 8 0 8 on West Florissant in St. Louis when Kendrick’s lyrics became a national movement anthem, a whole year after Mike Brown Jr. Was murdered. No matter who says those words, we gonna be all right. My heart attaches to that rhythm and it gives me another breath to keep running.
BRITTANY:
Despite everything we’ve been through, we are still here. And our duty is to those who did not survive. From Galveston to Gaza, from Seattle to Sudan, we are still here, which means we get to choose to make ourselves all right. And my prayer, my hope for this season as we journey together is that these conversations and this community that we have been building with so much love and curiosity, and quite a few laughs, <laugh>, that this place might be a container to hold everything you cannot hold alone. I hope it’s a soft place to rest and a warm place to be seen, and a loving place to reimagine and frankly, a disruptive enough place to get all of us into formation. Our hope doesn’t come from nowhere. It comes from us and the discipline we have to keep building it. So we’re gonna stay undistracted on how we feel and how we heal. Welcome back. I miss y’all real big on the episode today. It’s Ava DuVernay all about her movie origin, which chronicles Isabelle Wilkerson’s journey in writing her book about cast.
AVA:
It’s a simple concept when you apply it to various situations like the tragedy and catastrophe. That is the, the, the Palestinian horrors that are happening right now. It, it animates it and gives you a new vibrancy to think about it in new ways. You can take that into the homeless situation in la, in Los Angeles, or across the United States. You can take that into the presidential election. You can take that into family dynamics.
BRITTANY:
First, the news. Now y’all know I like to talk about the things that are top of mind for me and the folks I love, but maybe aren’t getting the front page headlines or trending stories tab that they really should be. So welcome back to UNT Trending News today. An update on Gaza Sudan and the Paralympics in Paris.
BRITTANY:
As the unyielding assault on the people of Palestine and Gaza and the West Bank continues, we are seeing the primary and secondary effects of perpetual violence. 12,000 patients are in need of urgent medical care. A polio outbreak threatens thousands of people, and the risk of famine remains imminently close. And we’re also seeing the protests continue in Israel. Tens of thousands of Israelis are still taking to the streets to demand the return of the hostages and a ceasefire. But Benjamin Netanyahu, Israels defiant, shall we say, prime Minister continues to resist any sort of ceasefire agreement. Sudan is also in the midst of deep and expansive violence. Violence that has largely been overlooked despite warnings about the risk of genocide in some of those regions. The violence has created one of the largest displacement crises in the entire world. 8.2 million people have been forced to leave their homes, and many are stuck in what’s called internal displacement, remaining within the country’s borders, but pushed from the lives and the homes they once knew.
BRITTANY:
And Sudan’s conflict like so many others, has its roots in the history of colonialism. Arbitrary borders drawn by colonial powers have created modern states that are rife for conflict. And that is part of what we’re seeing in Sudan. And there’s cultural history being lost as well. The guardian reports that soldiers have looted tens of thousands of objects from the National Museum of Cartoon. These are some of the oldest artifacts in the entire world. We certainly don’t talk enough about the human costs of war, but violence costs us everything. Our collective humanity, our morality, and our histories. Losing these artifacts is a devastating form of erasure, a tradition that colonialism began in the first place. Go ask some of these British and American museums where exactly they got their objects from. Clock it. Whew. Okay, I’ll admit that was some heavy news, but I do wanna close with a sprinkle of joy as the incredible display of athleticism, community and power, known as the Paralympics just wrapped in Paris.
BRITTANY:
Shout out to the French for truly embracing this powerful moment, helping make this the first ever sold out Paralympic games with over 2 million tickets sold to watch nearly 600 events from best in class disabled athletes from all around the world. Now, I loved watching track and some actually excellent break dancing, but what I really loved more than anything was watching these athletes reclaim the narrative about disability in sports. This thread from two time gold medal winning triathlete, Alyssa Sealy pretty much sums it up. She said, the Paralympic games are tomorrow. Here’s a few reminders. We are elite athletes. We are the best in the world at what we do. We are not inspirations solely because of our disabilities. We do not want your pity. Or I could nevers, but we do want you to show up loud and join the party. Hashtag team usa. Alyssa told us child disabled athletes are not here to simply serve as momentary inspiration because of their disabilities. They are here to compete on a global level as the elite athletes. They are just like in the abled Olympics. And if I can stand in Karri, which I do, I can also stand a hundred meter silver medalist Britney Cooper too, because frankly, baby, both of them are doing something I could never even contemplate. It’s too hot outside and I be tired. <laugh>
BRITTANY:
Uh, wait one second because we need to talk about that debate Tuesday night when Vice President Harris and former President Donald Trump took the stage. Now listen, this is all straight off the dome, so just feel me here. These are real rap raw reactions. <laugh>. First of all, when Donald Trump came onto the stage and his summer foundation shade, I was already like, don’t me off, even though I knew he would. And then Vice President Harris actually walks across the stage all the way to him. ’cause he did not meet her in the middle, shake his hand, introduced herself as Kamala Harris, not whatever he’s been trying to call her. She shook his hand and said, let’s have a good debate eight. That, in my opinion, is precisely where he lost, because he wasn’t expecting <laugh> decorum. He wasn’t expecting someone to come out with enough self-respect to not debase themselves by being baited by him.
BRITTANY:
In fact, she baited him all night and he absolutely went for it. But here’s the thing that I’m really thinking about. Well, a couple of things. One, we can say that he was talking out of his mind and that this was nonsensical. That there’s absolutely no way to apply any sane, rational thinking to what he said. And we’d be right in a sense. I mean, so much of that didn’t make any sense. Transgender operations for quote unquote illegal aliens in prison. What are you talking about, sir? And why are y’all so obsessed with our trans siblings? We’d be right to say that these things were irrational and nonsensical, and we’d also be right to recognize that while it sounded like gibberish to us, it sounded like the gospel to so many people whose paradigm is defined by fear of invasion, of people of color, whose mentality is defined by allowing patriarchy to control all of our bodies, whose, whose voting habits are defined by just how racist and sexist and xenophobic and islamophobic and antisemitic as you can be.
BRITTANY:
It was a south to people who have come to believe that their whiteness and their maleness is their greatest grievance. And we gotta sit with that. The other thing that I think is so critically important that we realize is that Kamala Harris’s posture was so clear that this debate was frankly beneath her because it wasn’t a debate, it wasn’t a debate of ideals or policies. This was bullying live on stage. This was somebody who reached deep into his pocket of frankly, asinine and infantile insults and just kept spewing whichever insults and lies he could come up with next. That was beneath Kamala Harris. It’s beneath any presidential candidate, no matter what party who’s worth their salt. And frankly, it’s beneath all of us. There’s something that we have to wrestle with about how far our politics has devolved since Trump entered the arena. We should all be worried that there are people who, in a cult-like fashion, have been convinced that he is the only leader that they need to lead them into the future that they want. We deserve better. It’s clear Kamala Harris won that debate. And it’s also clear that politics as shady and as wild as it’s always been, is not even what it used to be. A quick word from our sponsors.
BRITTANY:
So right now there’s a disturbing trend sweeping our nation. Books are being banned at an alarming rate. And it’s not just any books. The targets are stories that reflect lgbtq plus identities, explore race and racism, and depict real life experiences like sexual assault. And I’m not joking, some of the books I’ve loved the most, like the Hate You Give and All Boys Aren’t Blue, have been pulled from the shelves. Even everyone hoops has been banned across the country. Books that help young people understand and cope with sexual abuse are being pulled from the shelves. These stories are lifelines for kids who need to know they’re not alone. So this is about more than just books. It’s about whose stories get told and whose get erased. But we can push back, go to pn.org/undistracted to join the fight against these harmful book bands. And with National Band Books Week coming up September 22nd to 28th, now is the time to make your voice heard.
BRITTANY:
I often feel like the historical patterns and context, the interconnectedness of what’s going on around the world, really gets lost in the shuffle. Today’s guest is someone whose work crystallizes those connections for me and millions more. Ava DuVernay is a filmmaker and screenwriter and her awards are too numerous to list, but I’ll try a little bit. Ava is the first black woman to be nominated for a Golden Globe. She’s got some Emmy awards on her shelf, a few Oscar nominations, you know, just to keep it going. And I’m also really proud to say that she’s a dear friend of our family. So I brought her on to talk about her life and her work, and especially Origin, her latest feature film. It felt really important at this moment. And for those of you who don’t know yet, the movie is an adaptation of the book cast and follows journalist Isabel Wilkerson as she’s researching the history of the caste system in Germany, India, and here in the us
BRITTANY:
Ava. Ava. Ava, I am so, so thankful that you are here for our season three premiere. This is our first episode back. Woo woo. Welcome back, <laugh>. Thank you. This is our big return and I really spent a lot of time thinking about the tone we wanted to set for season three. Um, so talking to you about your life, your work, how you’re seeing this moment in the world, especially through the lens of your last feature film origin. It just really felt like the perfect way to kick things off and not just because origin should have won every award, in my opinion, and not just because it’s now available for everyone to watch on Hulu, but I think with so much breaking news and so much going on in the world, it’s work like yours that really helps us refocus. But before we get into all of it, just sis, how are you? I’m happy to see you. You look beautiful. Thank you. So do you. And
AVA:
Uh, and yeah, I feel like I, I’m, I’m coming out of something. I feel like I’m very, uh, in a new season. I mean, it’s literally, we just had the, the end of, uh, of summer a few days ago. And so it was a beautiful summer and I learned a lot. Uh, my spring was really turbulent and intense. My winter was really challenging and hard, and so I feel like I’m coming out of something and I feel really happy.
BRITTANY:
Well, I’m glad that you’re experiencing that happiness because it was pure joy when I bumped into you at the DNC in Chicago a few weeks ago. Yeah. Yeah. And my lens is so often justice and strategy, but I really thought about you being there as a storyteller. Were there stories that you saw happening that week that the rest of us might not have clocked, might not have picked up on? What were the narratives from that week that really fascinated you?
AVA:
I was really interested in what was going on outside of the arena. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And, you know, while I was in Chicago, I had a chance to meet with, you know, activists and advocates and folks that were, you know, trying to get the tension of people on the inside, but also not just focused on their own work. Um, I met with some elders, you know, uh, Emmett Till’s family. Mm-Hmm. Um, Chicago based. I met with, um, with some students. So yeah, I I, there were a lot of stories there that I was listening to and collecting. And then inside you had this kind of spectacle of the American experiment, um, where you had all kinds of people from all kinds of places kind of gathered in at some points what felt like a hysteria. Yeah. Uh, it was like a concert. And, and then, you know, I was also shooting a little bit for the campaign. I was shooting a little bit for another project. I was seeing all kinds of people. It was a very black event. Mm-Hmm.
BRITTANY:
<affirmative>. It was extremely black. It felt like a cookout some days. It
AVA:
Was many beautiful Negroes all around the city. <laugh>. That’s right. And, um, and it was interesting because I would see people who were in town, they were in town for, oh, I’m in town for the DNC, but were not inside the arena. Mm-Hmm. Like, they didn’t have any tickets inside. They were just in town for Yeah. The, the, the gathering Yeah. In, in a celebratory sense on the street. So, uh, it was a, it was fascinating. How’d you find it? I found, and, and none of my answer discusses politics, strategy, or, you know what I mean,
BRITTANY:
<laugh> No. But this is exactly why I wanted your viewpoint. Right. I go into the room thinking about that always. Right. I’m like, right, who is under the tent? Who needs to be invited into the tent? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. How do we make sure to do that in a way that is more than just, uh, social Right? But, but is backed by policy and by promises. Right. Um, but certainly the electricity that you were talking about inside, outside at an event on a street corner Yeah. All of that was there.
AVA:
It was a thing.
BRITTANY:
It was a thing. It was, it was absolutely a thing. And I think people are, you know, going to be asking for a long time, Hey, were you there? Were you in the city that week?
AVA:
Right, right. Right. Yeah. It was something else.
BRITTANY:
It was, it kind of felt, it kind of felt a little bit like that cookout scene, um, in origin, but clearly there was a lot more going on in that one. Right. Um, in this, these conversations about cast and race and oppression, and obviously with Origin being your latest feature film, a lot of people may not know it got a nine minute standing ovation at the Venice Film Festival last fall, but it’s really become such a contextual backdrop for the sociopolitical moment we’re in. How did you come to this project in the first place?
AVA:
Um, I was aware of the book. Uh, a couple friends had had, uh, encouraged me to read it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, everybody was reading it at a time. And, uh, I was not in an emotional place to wanna read it over the summer of 2020 <laugh>, I was not trying to read a 500 page book. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I mean, about cast, which I knew nothing about. I thought I knew enough about it is a, you know, a social system in India. I thought, um, and really hadn’t, you know, contemplated its, uh, modern context in American history and certainly in my life in any kind of diligent way. And so when I finally did read the book, um, I was really a arrested by it and thought, oh, this is a baseline concept that folks should know as we’re discussing our lives, our place in the world, and the way that we deal with other people. Yeah. And just very, it was like a very basic concept, kind of like prison is not just a place where bad people go is a baseline concept. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> that many, many people don’t know. Yeah. And so, acknowledging that led to 13th and acknowledging that not enough people understand this hierarchy of human beings led me to make origin from cast.
BRITTANY:
That’s real. Because when the book came out, I’m not gonna hold you. I listened to the audio book, <laugh> Get It. I was like, this is a huge volume of text. Yeah. And I had to revisit the audiobook multiple times to get through certain sections. Mm-Hmm. Because everything felt so, um, so real and so present in the world. But like you said, this cast system really dictates how power functions around the globe, not just in India. Yeah. So why is talking about that so pressing right now?
AVA:
Yeah, I mean, I, I just found it the, the concept of caste and understanding it, even in broad strokes, to be an organizing principle for a lot of thoughts that I have. Mm-Hmm. Um, you know, my primary lens to understand the world is race and gender. Mostly race even more than gender. Right. Um, you know, I, I am taking in information and processing that information as a black person in America. And I find that when I am in rooms where, you know, folks are not prominently black, there are shifts that I would always attribute to race. Um, there are certain patterns within the industry that I work in. There are certain patterns within the very city that I live in. There is, uh, in, whether it be in academia or in healthcare, there is a, a, a, a matrix. Mm. That, um, I think race, uh, is, I have a character in the book say, it is insufficient to describe the depth and density of the game. Mm. So if you wanna understand it, then you gotta dig deeper. Yeah. And it’s not a replacement, it’s just another tool to kind of metabolize and, and, and deal with it and process it. So that’s what I found. And it’s, so especially in these times, um, you know, it’s imm imperative for, for thinking folks to have all of the tools, all of the weaponry Yes. To defend yourself to, um, you know, put what we’re experiencing in context.
BRITTANY:
Yeah. I mean, when we’re talking about putting what we’re experiencing in context, I think that cast as another organizing principle helps us move beyond our own experience. I mean, the film covers, um, caste systems in India and Nazi Germany and in the us and then I look up right now, and I’m looking at the unyielding assault on Palestinians, the rise of Hindu nationalism in India, genocides across multiple African countries, the ongoing violence black folks experience in the us. Is there something about all of these examples that give you a single thread that you really want people to understand? I
AVA:
Think the application of the idea of caste is complex. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But the, to understand it, I think is really simple. It is a choosing, it is a selection, it is a crafting of importance. Mm. And so when you apply that to all kinds of different contexts, different environments, different, um, periods of time, different spaces, it starts to animate your ideas about how to deal with it. If you understand, oh, this isn’t happening to me because of anything other than a set of random traits that it’s been decided that I belong in this group, and therefore I will be treated as such, or I will treat someone as such. Yeah. And I think that it’s a simple concept when you apply it to various situations. Like we look at, you know, the, uh, the, the tragedy and catastrophe that is the, the, the Palestinian Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> horrors that are happening right now. Um, it, it animates it and gives you a new vibrancy to think about it in new ways. You can take that into the homeless situation in la in Los Angeles, or across the United States. You can take that into the presidential election. You can take that into family dynamics. Yeah.
BRITTANY:
Right.
AVA:
Who a choosing whose voice is more important in this room at around the dinner table. Yeah. You know, so it, it, it, it is, it’s just another way to think about our behavior Hmm. And our reaction to behavior that comes our way.
BRITTANY:
I love the way that you talk dually about it, helping us understand what is happening to us and also how we treat others. Right. Yeah. How we have been trained and socialized to treat others.
AVA:
Absolutely.
BRITTANY:
Which is why I find it so fascinating that when I saw the film, it was when you and our good friend, Dr. C Shamoon, former head of DEI for Congress, brought the film to policymakers. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. That’s not just an unusual choice for Hollywood, that’s also a risky one. Right. Um, yeah. Why take this project to those decision makers, to policy makers, especially at a time when so many of them are heavily pursuing this anti diversity, equity and inclusion agenda? I
AVA:
Would have to ask her as to why she did it, but I think it, it opened up a conversation, uh, about inclusion and belonging with visuals and with a story that allowed people to enter into it in a emotional way. Mm-Hmm. You know, I think so often when we talk about DEI, and I’ve sat through those trainings and I’m just like, oh my God, just take, take me now, um, that they’re dry. They are, they feel brittle, they feel manufactured. Mm. And they’re not emotional. And DEI, I hate the moniker, but it is a deeply emotional, personal, intimate issue that when, when kind of siphoned through a corporate lens or a political lens becomes drained of its humanity. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so I, I think, and our hope is that the film ignites, you know, the sense of, oh no, this isn’t DEI, this isn’t paperwork, this is on PowerPoint presentation. These are people, this is real life and these are very basic things. Can everyone just <laugh> be, be, be treated in a way that, um, you would like to be treated yourself? Is that just a basic, didn’t we learn that on the, the school yard? School yard? Us just like, you
BRITTANY:
Like to be treated
AVA:
Something like, I just don’t get it. Yeah. Treat it as like, you like to be treated. Stay outta my bedroom, stay off my bookshelf. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, keep your hands off my body. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> like, just really basic things. Mm-Hmm. And like, you really, you, you really, it’s very, very basic. So the hope is that the visuals in the film, you know Yeah. You are watching it and it’s emotional and it can bring you back to a human place. Yeah. That was the goal.
BRITTANY:
And so it also removes the feeling of threat and attack from quote, unquote DEI. Right. That this is not something that I have to fight for my protection. That this is actually a human conversation,
AVA:
I guess. But I mean,
BRITTANY:
<laugh>,
AVA:
I don’t care what they think. You know what I mean? Like, when we’re talking about DDEI and we, and they’re clutching pearls. Right. You know, and they’re feeling like they have to fight for the, so it’s like, I just don’t have sympathy for it. Mm. I just, I just don’t, I don’t have empathy for it. I don’t have sympathy for it. Like, I’ve done it, I had it several years ago. Yeah. I’m done with it. Like, it’s, it’s, it’s, uh,
BRITTANY:
It’s, well, it’s not our responsibility.
AVA:
It sure ain’t girl. It sure ain’t. So
BRITTANY:
She said, I ain’t got time. I
AVA:
Don’t, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t. So, so, yeah. So I, I you, I make this film. I make this film outside of the studio system. I make this film because no studio will make it. We find the money on our, our own. We make it from my black woman led studio. We make it a, um, you know, a global film. We travel the world, we Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> Crack, this 500 page book. We put a black woman academic at the center of the book. And she’s taking you through, she’s teaching you the book as she researches the book. Right. Because the, the core just human decency of the ideas was worthy of, of, of trying to amplify. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I hope that people use it for all kinds of reasons. Education, DEI sit down with your kids, show it to your mama, whatever it is.
AVA:
But there’s, there’s something there that, um, I found anchoring, you know, because I think, you know, when I watch M-S-N-B-C and when I watch I, I become un anchored. I become angry, I become frustrated, I become impatient, and then I get caught up in all the individual stories. Yeah. And yes, I need to stay abreast of what’s going on, but also, uh, I put a time limit on that. I try to base myself in community. I just imagine that balance is one that for me, I hope the film can provide that kind of anchoring when you kind of feel like, wow, this is, there’s a lot going on. And I don’t know where I stand.
BRITTANY:
When you’ve talked about the film before, you’ve talked about that scrappy non-traditional model, right? The nonprofit funding, the ways in which you, um, use non-traditional pathways in Hollywood. And you say it liberated the art. I like to call that kind of work creative subversion. Do you feel like your way of doing the work, um, through that, has liberated you in certain ways?
AVA:
Yeah, I think, I think that the, it taught me a lot. It taught me a lot about, um, you know, balance. But it also taught me a lot about, you know, the film didn’t do well. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, uh, at the box office. It didn’t do well because it was poorly distributed and poorly marketed by the company that I chose to make it. It was my mistake. But also I think, um, it is a film that you have to be ready to handle. And so I’m so happy it’s on streaming with Hulu now. And I think that what I’m interested in doing these days is, okay, how do I say the things that I wanna say in a way that people don’t have to be like, completely prepared and like psychically ready to sit down for <laugh>. Um, and that’s a way that’s maybe a little bit more digestible. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and so I’m wrestling with that right now in terms of, you know, someone said, well, don’t dumb down your stuff. Oh, and dumb it down. I’m just kind of thinking about are there ways to kind of put the protein bar inside of a Snickers wrapper? Mm. You know what I mean? Yeah. Is there a way to kind of make a, to cover
BRITTANY:
The vegetables with cheese?
AVA:
Exactly. You know what I mean? Is there a way to to to, you know, um, do that that still allows me to say the things I wanna say and get across things that are important and, and, and share, uh, and expand folk in the ways that I hope I can. But that invites them in, into a way that might be a little easier. I don’t know if I’ll always do it, but that’s something I have in mind right now. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And that’s one of the things that I learned with origin. And so the hope is that between, you know, finding, finding a way to share important ideas or ideas that I think people should know in a way that more people wanna see.
BRITTANY:
Yeah. Yeah. Do you think the possibility of a woman president, a black woman president, a South Asian woman president, will get people’s taste buds a little more ready to receive?
AVA:
No. <laugh> No. No.
BRITTANY:
I don’t. You said that’s a beautiful thought, but absolutely not. Well, I mean, we, we went,
AVA:
We went through it. We did it. We’ve been here with President Obama. Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. There were beautiful things that came from that. But ultimately in my industry, anything anyway, there wasn’t a, any kind of revolutionary generational change within our industry. Um, and when we see the, you know, ferocious and dangerous reaction to progress, um, you know, it’s hard for me to look at the potential Harris presidency and think it’s all gonna be rainbows and, and you know, butter scotch. So I think what it does do is, uh, mirror, uh, possibilities to, I mean, this would be an impossible feat if it happens. This is one of the things where you’d be like, like I ex I feel it with Obama. I remember thinking, oh yeah, I’m gonna, I’m gonna push ’em, but this is crazy. This ain’t ever gonna happen. I mean, you, we gotta think back. That’s right. They were hardcore black democrats who said, sir, young man, this is not your time. Yeah. We are with Hillary and they, and people we love Yeah. People we
BRITTANY:
Love saying, we can’t spend our energy on this ’cause it’s not happening.
AVA:
You are, you are dividing the base. Mm-Hmm. You are distraction. This ain’t ever gonna work. Who are you, you were you a senator? You can, like, this can’t
BRITTANY:
Happen. You, they say, you just got here.
AVA:
There’s no precedent for this. Yeah. And you’re, and you’re messing up the thing. And it happened. I mean, this is the kind of stuff that as a screenwriter, uh, if someone brought me this on an episode of Queen Sugar and I’m the head writer, I’d be like, Hmm. Little too much
BRITTANY:
<laugh>, you said, that’s too much of a swing
AVA:
Pull. Pull it back, pull it back
BRITTANY:
Back. It’s not
AVA:
Believable. Not believable. And so, you know, it, it’s, it’s if it happens and we, I believe in impossibilities, what a thing. And that is worth something. Yeah. And that is worth something. So
BRITTANY:
I mean, you, before the directing and the writing and all of that, you started off your career as a publicist. If you were the vice president’s PR person, what is the story you think she should be telling about herself, about her potential presidency to the American people?
AVA:
You know what I think right now, it, it, I mean, the sister had, what, three months
BRITTANY:
<laugh>. Right.
AVA:
You know what I mean? Like, it’s, it’s, uh, three months to, to basically mount a campaign that, that, you know, these things usually take two years, two plus years. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so, um, and to pivot and to, I mean, unite the party and to do all of the things that, um, that are happening right now. I mean, I can sit back and I definitely armchair quarterback the PR and marketing and the, and the materials and all of that. But ultimately, you look at the rising polls, you look at, you know, the consolidation of, of kind of democratic interest around her. And you look at the time that’s there. And, uh, I think they’re doing their job in the best way that they can. Mm-Hmm. I would say, um, I like it when they lean in and get a little bit more edge, a little bit more edge. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I think that they are in a street fight, and yeah, you need to take off your earrings and put on your Vaseline, listen, tie
BRITTANY:
That hair back
AVA:
<laugh>. You know what I mean? Like, you, you gotta go for it. And so there, there’s a dirtying up that I think the Democrats are allergic to in a lot of ways. And I just, I just wish they kind of get a little bit more bare knuckle because, um, it’s necessary. I mean, they’re fighting for, uh, the future of so much. But, but, but to answer the things that I wish that she would say is to really address, you know, Palestine in a more full throated human way that, uh, speaks to the devastation and the, and the current kind of massacring That’s right. Uh, that we are all seeing. But I look at it and I understand the tightrope that she’s walking. Yeah. And it doesn’t excuse, but I think there’s a way to say these are horrors and we bear some responsibility. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And this is how I as commander in chief, am going to perfect better. She can’t say this is horrible because she was a part, you know, she, she’s, she’s, it’s the current administration. Sure. But I think there’s a way to at least, um, do a little bit more to lean into what so many people are feeling. And one thing I’ll say, someone had said to me the other day, the protests, those student protests didn’t do anything. They didn’t matter. They were stupid. And all those students, oh boy, wasted their time and, uh, jeopardize their futures.
BRITTANY:
Oh gosh.
AVA:
I said, those protests are why you have Tim Waltz.
BRITTANY:
Amen.
AVA:
Okay. Because that choice was a reaction, uh, to a very specific concern of a large group of voters. And those concerns were expressed through the right to protest. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, they were heard around the world and they did matter. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And, um, and they will continue to matter and they’re gonna continue to happen. And so I just think an acknowledgement of that, that energy, which was widespread and deeply felt. That’s right. I would love to hear a little bit more of that from them.
BRITTANY:
I hear that. Before I let you go, is there one message, one thought, one moment in your career that you think would be useful for our community, um, to help us all remain undistracted?
AVA:
Meditate.
BRITTANY:
Yeah,
AVA:
<laugh>, uh, I, when I’m watching M-S-N-B-C or CN or, or when I’m at the DNC for days at a time, I start to forget what it all means. Go have a tree lay in the grass. I mean, literally, we’re dealing with strategy, we’re dealing with community, we’re dealing with politics, we’re dealing with violence, we’re dealing with microaggressions, macroaggressions, we’re dealing all of that. And the grounding mechanism for me is to breathe and to remember, you know, all of this is not the real, real That’s right. And so I know you feel that when you hug your son, when you hold your son. Yeah. It all just kind of, uh, collapses into what really matters. And if you connect with that daily, then you allow to guide you when you have to come back outside. So it’s, it’s about going inward for me as much as possible. And, uh, I dunno if that answers your question, but It
BRITTANY:
Absolutely does.
AVA:
That’s kind where I’m right now. Going
BRITTANY:
Inward is Yeah. A unnecessary practice. Um, yeah. And certainly keeps us grounded, connected to what is real and undistracted. Ava, it is always so fantastic to talk to you, um, to get a little bit of your big sister wisdom.
AVA:
So proud of you, and so happy to be here with you. Thanks for having me. Congrats on the new season.
BRITTANY:
Thank you.
BRITTANY:
I am so, so glad to be back with you all. And I’d like to personally dedicate this episode to the late great Frankie Beverly. For those of you who don’t know, Frankie Beverly and Maze was one of the preeminent black soul bands of, well, frankly, of the last few decades. And no matter where you were seeing Frankie, you knew to wear all white, to show up in your full divinity and to sway and sing and soulfully move with your siblings to his sounds. Frankie Beverly touched so many of us, no matter what generation you were a part of. Here are the lyrics to his very famous song. We are one, can’t understand why we treat each other in this way. Taking up time with the silly, silly games we play. We got our love. And no matter how it’s said or done, we are one. No matter what we do, we are one. Our love will see us through. We are one. And that’s the way it is. We are one. Thank you for your beautiful music and your even more beautiful soul. Frankie Beverly, we love you.
AVA:
<silence>
BRITTANY:
That’s it for today, but you already know Never for Tomorrow. Undistracted is a production of the media and our new friends at Wonder Media Network, who have been absolutely outstanding. Our producers are Taylor Williamson and Hannah Bottom with production assistants from Lauren Williams. Our editor is Grace Lynch. Thanks also to Natalia Ramirez and Sarah Culley. Our executive producers at the Meteor are Cindy Levy, and myself and our executive producer at Wonder Media Network is Jenny Kaplan. You can follow me at Ms. Papac Yeti on all social media and our incredible team at the media. Subscribe to Undistracted and don’t forget to write and review us y’all on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any place you get your favorite podcasts. Thanks for listening. Thanks for being, and thanks for doing. I’m Brittany Pack at Cunningham. Let’s go get free.
BRITTANY:
Thanks for sticking with us. All the way to the Y y’all. As we wrap up, I wanna leave you with this crucial takeaway. The Wave A book ban. Sweeping our country is more than just a trend. It’s a direct attack on the stories that matter most and suppressing the voices that make up our diverse communities across the country. When books that discuss sexual assault or identities are labeled inappropriate, it sends a harmful message to our kids about whose stories are worthy of being told. But we don’t have to accept this. Head over to penn.org/undistracted to get involved. Whether it’s donating, taking action in your community, or simply spreading the word, you can help protect the freedom to read.