Episode 7: A GIRL’S GIRL FIGHTS FOR ABORTION, WITH KAITLYN JOSHUA
Please note: This transcript has been automatically generated.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Hey y’all, so I’m gonna hold your hand when I say this. Roe was never enough. We know that the precedent that made abortion access available across the country, in theory, was holding the line for 50 some odd years. It was holding the line from the worst impacts of a lack of access to reproductive care, but it wasn’t doing everything. We know that the best defense is a strong offense, and for far too many people, especially across the deep south, especially for women of color, immigrant women, disabled folks, queer people, access to abortion, and a full suite of reproductive care has never been a fully accessible reality. Every time we talk about reproductive justice on this podcast, and that is often, we should always remember that whether we’re talking about abortion clinics, miscarriages, maternal mortality, that all of it comes down to a framework of reproductive justice.
BRITTANY:
That framework was given to us by Black women and is about more than a single procedure or even just the system of healthcare. It is about ensuring that every single person has the ability to decide if and when they have children, how they raise them, and ensuring their ability to be able to raise them in safe and thriving environments where parent and child thrive together. And in the same way that reproductive justice goes beyond abortion, the issue of reproductive justice goes beyond this election. But here’s the thing. Elections are an opportunity to set the field of play. They are a chance for us to operate strategically and choose our partners and be aware of our opponents. My friend Kayla Reed always says that elections are about setting the conditions for our fight. It’s not a love letter, it’s a chess move. And when it comes to reproductive justice, the move I wanna make is pretty clear to me.
BRITTANY:
On today’s show, Kaitlyn Joshua has become a prominent voice in the reproductive justice space. We’ll talk about her fight against Louisiana’s near total abortion ban and her own very personal experience under it, and the hopeful things she’s seeing and hearing in these last two weeks before the election.
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
What I’m hoping is people are looking at states like Louisiana and Mississippi and saying, we don’t wanna do this. We don’t wanna be there. And yes, we need to go in and help these folks, but for now, let’s do our homework and make sure that we get an A on this group project and vote the right way in these battleground states.
BRITTANY:
But first, the news.
BRITTANY:
We begin with an update on Stop Cop City in Atlanta. Back in 2021, you might remember Atlanta announced plans for a massive police and firefighter training complex in the middle of a forest. The resistance was swift, and thankfully, very broad. A range of environmental and social justice groups began raising concerns over a massive investment that promises to make Atlanta less safe by investing in harmful policing practices, engaging in deforestation, and likely divesting from critical city services just to pay for it. In 2023, police shot and killed a protester Manuel Esteban Paez Terán, affectionately known as Tortuguita, who was just 26 years old. And while his family is still waiting for answers, the state continues to harass and intimidate protestors. Last year, the state used RICO, a law mostly used to take aim at mafia and other organized crime. Yeah, they used RICO to justify a raid on the homes of several organizers.
BRITTANY:
Now, as hearings begin, in those cases, local activists and their attorneys have said, the authorities claimed personal diaries, medical test results, and therapy notes. From my viewpoint, those are personal items, clearly not related to the case or the warrant. The state of play for true protest in this country remains dangerous. I know this all too well and I have a bruised lung to prove it. Y’all cop, cities don’t keep us safer, and Atlanta is not the only city trying to build one. Standing in solidarity with Tortuguita and all of Atlanta’s organizers means supporting their struggle and fighting it in our own backyards too.
BRITTANY:
So many of you expressed gratitude for last week’s episode, and our sister Drew Dixon’s strength and Truth keep the dms and texts coming. I see you. I hear you. And I thank you. As we continue to elevate the voices of survivors, another group of survivors raised the alarm about this election and I was proud to be among them. 150 of us signed an open letter as Survivors for Kamala, a letter that ran as a full page ad in the New York Times. After all y’all, Donald Trump does love a full page ad. Ask the exonerated five. But one thing about them tables, they turn Donnie, they turn. And with that ad, we seek to remind the nation that among the many threats Donald Trump poses to Americans, a second Trump term would send a daily reminder through his presence and his policies, that sexual violence is just something to be accepted. And we will not accept that.
Y’all, let me wrap up. Today’s UNtrending with something that makes me feel good. GloRilla new album.
GloRilla: I did the modern features like with my girls megan, latto, sexyy red, you know what I’m saying. We the hottest going on right now
Jennifer Hudson: Yes, we know, we know!
GloRilla: GIrl, you know I’m all in the female rap, you know what I’m saying.
BRITTANY:
That is my girl. I mean, there is something brrutiful about that Memphis accent, <laugh> and a Black girl living life exactly how she wants to. It just makes me feel like I can leap tall buildings in a single bound with like just my imagination and a fist full of Kanekelon. I was already floating from listening to her album. And then my girl made a surprise appearance at Usher’s Show in Atlanta, a show I just happened to be in the audience for. Listen, we got RnB classic guests. Okay, we got Silk, we got Keith Sweat. We even got a cut close reunion with Keith Sweat. And my real RnB heads know just how rare that is. And we got my favorite Gospel OG Kirk Franklin. Y’all my nineties RnB Church Kid Heart could barely handle it. And this show felt custom built for my viewing pleasure. <laugh>,
BRITTANY:
As someone who loves gospel music, trap music and trap gospel ’cause that actually does exist. But I did see some backlash online specifically. I saw some religious influencers, we’ll say, although that might be an oxymoronic phrase, they were bemoaning the fact that gospel icons like Kirk and Kierra Sheard dared to share the mic with Glo on her album. And to that, I lovingly say to the Saints, relax your brain cells. Okay, from the blues to Marvin Gaye, to Salt From Salt n Peppa on Kirk’s mega Bop Stomp, the Sacred and the Secular have always shared a musical soul. That’s part of what makes it beautiful because it’s just as complex as we are as human beings. Y’all GloRilla’s real name is literally Gloria Hallelujah Woods. So why y’all mad? She loves the Lord. Her mama told you who she was. <laugh>, are y’all like allergic to reaching young people with your message?
BRITTANY:
I’m a preacher’s kid. And personally, I appreciated some swag with my Jesus back then, and I’m sure the young folks do now. And I’m very, very glad that the God I choose to serve does not measure my worth by the opinions of the Saints ’cause y’all are tougher critics than Jesus Hell in Christ himself. And given that I’m still in recovery from my Baptist body shame, I am glad that we are in the era of the unapologetic Black woman. Y’all got Meg, we got Doechii, my Girl Glo. These artists are refusing to give into these restrictive and limiting labels that so many people wanna put on Black women specifically when it comes to our faith, when it comes to sexuality and overall artistry. They are demanding the nuance that so many people wanna deny us. That is revolutionary. And that’s it for the news. We’ll be right back.
AD BREAK
BRITTANY:
We are back. Kaitlyn Joshua is a community organizer from Baton Rouge, Louisiana. After the Dobbs decision, Louisiana enacted a near total abortion ban. And as a result, Kaitlyn was denied the care she needed and suffered a deeply painful miscarriage at home. Since going public with her story, Kaitlyn has become a leading voice in the movement for reproductive justice. She continues to fight the Louisiana law and she’s taken her concerns national and on the road with the Harris campaign. I wanted to sit down with Kaitlyn to talk about the immediate concerns of abortion bans and the election, but also to ask her how she’s thinking about the future. A future, not just post Roe, but beyond Roe. What would it take to have real reproductive justice? I’m excited for y’all to hear our conversation fresh off the campaign trail. Welcome, Kaitlyn. I’m so grateful that you’re here.
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
Thank you. I’m excited to be here. Thank you for having me.
BRITTANY:
Listen, you have been busy and very booked, so we’re, we’re grateful that you could make the time. I mean, from speaking at the DNC to extensive travel for the Harris Walls campaign as a surrogate, honestly booked and busy really feels like an understatement to describe what you’ve been up to. But we are really getting down to the wire now. At the time I’m talking to you, we’ve got 14 days out from the end of election season because early voting has already begun. How are you handling it all? Especially ’cause you’ve got a 1-year-old and a 6-year-old at home <laugh>.
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
Yeah. How am I handling? I don’t think about it too much. I just kind of do it right. I know we’ve got 14 days and I keep telling my kids, I’m like, you know, mom is only gonna be super crazy busy for the next 14 days. And then after that, you know, we’ll go on vacation, do all the things. But for now, I am doing everything I possibly can. So in my community, when I’m home here in south Louisiana, I’m doing what I can to knock on doors, literally going and do that after this podcast.
BRITTANY:
I love it.
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
I’m pulling on as many Black and brown folks that I can, um, in my neighborhoods to make sure that we are getting out the vote and then helping people, you know, kind of pinpoint how they can get a ride on election day or during early voting. So anything I can do here, I’m doing here. And then this weekend I’ll be back with the Harris campaign, um, in Texas on Friday in Vegas on Saturday and Sunday. So it’ll be crazy, but I know that it’s for a good cause. And I know that, you know, I keep saying any issue that you care about, anything that you know, drives you or mobilizes you is on the ballot this fall.
BRITTANY:
Mm-Hmm.
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
And so, uh, we’ve gotta do everything we can and pull out all the stops and I’m willing to do it.<laugh>,
BRITTANY:
You know, before we dive deeper into the current news and the election of it all, I think it’s important to set some context for where you’ve come from. It’s been two years since you first shared your story. And to this day, you continue to share your story on platforms of all sizes. But originally you didn’t necessarily wanna come out and speak publicly, and it was your sister and your husband that encouraged you to do so. So walk our listeners what you went through back in 2022.
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
So the summer of 2022, dating back to literally the, the week of the overturn of Roe v. Wade is when I found out that I was expecting, never thought in a million years that I would find myself kind of in the hairs of our egregious laws here in Louisiana as we had a trigger ban ready to go, um, whenever that ruling came down, or Dobbs decision came down. Uh, and unfortunately I saw my pregnancy impacted from the very start. I was used to having an open, you know, really good rapport with my medical provider. And so I called his office super excited, um, that I was expecting and expecting to get an appointment on the books immediately, but was really shocked to hear, um, from the medical assistant tell me, you know, I know you’re four weeks pregnant, you’re super excited. But unfortunately, Kait, because of the new laws, we’re not seeing patients until 12 weeks pregnant.
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
And I knew the first trimester was the most critical, um, you know, time in a, in a woman’s pregnancy. And I, I definitely wanted to get to a physician’s office. So I called several different medical providers in the city of Baton Rouge. But everybody said the same thing, we’re not gonna see you until you’re 12 weeks pregnant. But unfortunately I didn’t make it to 12 weeks. Um, right at 11 weeks I started experiencing cramping, pain worse than childbirth, um, blood loss, like I cannot explain. Um, and decided to drive myself to a facility in Baton Rouge. There, the medical team, um, evaluated me rather quickly.
BRITTANY:
Mm-Hmm.
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
A nd was really kind. But the, the visit ended with the physician literally telling me, I’m praying for you. I’m sending you home with prayers. If you have worse pain tomorrow, please come back, but I’m not gonna be able to treat you. Um, and I really can’t determine whether or not, or confirm whether or not you’re, you know, experiencing a miscarriage or not. Even though in that moment I knew I was. And so the next day, of course, woke up, worse pain, worse blood loss, decided to go to a different medical office and this time, my mom and my husband met me. And, um, they kind of saw firsthand, or they fully saw firsthand what it was like to kind of be gaslit in that moment as we’re engaging with a physician. And she comes in the room after 45 minutes of being evaluated again and, and getting with ultrasound tech and having him do a full workup.
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
And she says, are you sure you were ever pregnant? This just looks like a cyst to me. And I remember looking at my mom, looking at my husband, and they’re like you know, our loved one is in extreme pain right now, and you’re asking us if she’s even pregnant when she’s 11 weeks. Right? And so, all in all, unfortunately was not able to receive the care that I knew I deserved in that moment. I even asked her for a DNC and she said, we’re not doing that right now. And later that week I found myself trying my luck with one more medical provider. A friend of mine who’s a midwife, saw me and she said, look, I’m gonna confirm that you are, you were indeed pregnant, you were certainly, um, experiencing a miscarriage, but again, we’re not gonna be able to provide that care because of the new laws.
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
And so my discharge papers, you know, says, “take Tylenol.” And that’s what I was left to do for weeks on end. And it took me two months to pass that pregnancy. And now I find myself advocating not just of course for reproductive freedom and reproductive justice, which is such important topics, but also through the lens as a woman of color that was denied care in a state that already has terrible, alarming Black maternal health statistics. Um, to be able to tell that story and meet so many different women, hundreds of women across the state and across this country that have lived the same experience because of the Dobbs decision, because of Donald Trump’s overturning of Roe v. Wade is something that I am passionate about doing.
BRITTANY:
I’m so sorry to hear that that was your experience and am sad that we are a part of that same sorority. I had a miscarriage, um, at six weeks in 2020, and I was frustrated that it took them two days to see me and was told, you know, stay at home. Let us know what happens. Um, so to have to endure what you endured after multiple visits and then for an additional two plus months infuriates me. And I also know that the trauma from all that means, yeah, you’re not really excited to get out there and start talking to people about what you’ve been through, what you are enduring mentally, spiritually, physically, emotionally. When did you start to feel differently about deciding that this was a story that needed to be told for all the reasons you just discussed?
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
My twin sister was actually in med school at the time, And I remember her saying, there’s a Louisiana Department of Health meeting happening in Baton Rouge. You need to go. At the time I was only staying like 20 minutes outside of Baton Rouge. And I told her, no, I’m not gonna do that. I’m mad. And she’s like, Kaitlyn, there’s hundreds of women going to this meeting. You need to join them. One: in solidarity so you can understand that you’re not alone in this. But then also, how can they know, how can the politicians know the direct consequences of their actions if people don’t say anything? So she convinced me to go to that meeting and I’m so glad that I did ’cause as soon as I finished speaking, and I’ll, I’ll never forget, I spoke right after this really crazy doctor who actually lost his license, um, that year because of just like, I guess the, the conflict that he had with like religion versus practice. And, um, he, you know, spoke and got up and was like, abortion is, is is not healthcare. It’s killing of babies. And I remember having to get up right after him and share my story in the room, kind of going silent. And Rosemary Westwood of NPR walks right up to me and she says, I’ve gotta tell your story. And then again, I still had a little bit of hesitancy ’cause I was like, oh lord, no, I was only coming to this meeting. I wasn’t planning to take this any, you know, any further steps. But I remember, um, her kind of just saying, these are the stories that need to be told, and I don’t think you understand the impact you’re gonna have these next couple years as being a part, you know, as, as of someone who’s lending voice to people that feel like they can’t, or folks that are, you know, too fearful to come out, um, and share their story. And so that’s kind of how I got started in all of this.
BRITTANY:
Do you think telling your story shifted how you process it?
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
Certainly, definitely. Yeah.
BRITTANY:
In what ways?
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
I would’ve, to say it, as crazy as it sounds like sharing my story has been in some ways therapeutic. I kind of, for a couple months had buried, you know, that time and buried those memories and, you know, not, not even did much. I remember even taking off of work for a substantial amount of time, just wanting to like, lay in bed and be depressed about the situation. But I feel like getting out there and meeting so many other people and like women, you know, empowering other women to share their stories is powerful in and of itself and being able to be a part of that has been very therapeutic for me in processing my own trauma.
BRITTANY:
So it’s been therapeutic for you as you’ve processed your own trauma. You’ve also talked about finding real community on the campaign trail and in the broad fight for reproductive justice with other folks, um, especially people who’ve come out with their, you know, quote unquote post Dobbs stories, if you will. And not, but, but, and I think we need to mention that despite the support and the community you found, and despite the fact that the Dobbs decision is largely unpopular among Americans, we should always remember that you still have faced intense backlash. If everyone was in agreement on this issue, right? We wouldn’t be in this situation in the first place. You wouldn’t have had to talk after that, that wild doctor. Who has tried to discredit your story and what, what have you found to be your response in those moments?
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
Yeah, the response in the moments, I’ll think on, I’ll think on that one in a second, <laugh>. But, um, it, I mean from going down to the state legislature every single year since they’ve, um, passed our state’s abortion ban here in Louisiana and having Republican lawmakers just straight up tell me or other women that have shared their story. And that takes a lot of courage to do to, to be in a room of 200 plus people. That’s right. You know, for a committee hearing that’s trying to provide clarity on a, um, terrible law or just allow physicians to do their jobs, um, as they see necessary that the expertise, expertise and training that they’ve gone to school for, that they should be able to do, um, and then have a Republican lawmaker tell you, um, it wasn’t that bad. Or, you know, these are not issues that are happening daily in Louisiana.
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
This was a one-off, or my favorite. It’s not a abortion, um, ban problem, it’s a healthcare system problem. Louisiana already had terrible Black maternal health statistics, so you just kind of fell under that Kaitlyn. Yeah. And that’s very frustrating. And then most recently, right after the Democratic National Convention, our state’s Attorney General, who is a woman, mind you, came out the day after my speech and she says, you know, look at this. Democrats are using Kaitlyn’s story to further an agenda for an issue that doesn’t exist in Louisiana. And the way that she said it, it was as if she had spoken to the hospitals that treated me and stated that, you know, I, there’s no way that this story is valid or that it, you know, there’s credibility to this story. This again, was a one-off situation, and we should blame the healthcare system and we should blame the Democratic governor that was in office at the time. And that was really hard for me.
BRITTANY:
Yeah. Liz is not a girl’s girl. Like what’s going on?
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
Liz is not a girl’s girl at all. She, I mean, it’s so disappointing to see that it’s a woman in, in that political office, but then also she does a great job of carrying the water of the Republican party, and she’s not apologetic about that at all. Hmm. And so that, that went, but out of all the haters, that was the hardest one for me to process because she said so loud and so clear and was picked up by so many different media outlets on her opinion about what’s happening in the state. But I must admit, I’ve been really just pleased and, and hopeful with the responses I’ve seen on social media. I haven’t had to say a word because thousands of people have been handing her her behind on, you know, Twitter or X or Instagram.
BRITTANY:
Period.
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
And just sharing their stories and saying how she should not be our attorney general, especially someone that supposed to understand law and practices law should be able to interpret it and, and see when it’s problematic, you know? And so my response has been very, I’ve tried to keep it very professional the couple of times that I’ve called her out. Um, and, uh, and for the, for the most part, people have done the work for me, which I’m so appreciative of.
BRITTANY:
Yeah. Sometimes you have to let the people fight your battle because you are over there trying to do the work that is before you. Right? Yeah. And you can’t unfortunately get caught up in everybody who’s trying to continue the gaslighting that you experienced in the first place.
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
Yeah, Yeah.
BRITTANY:
You know, back in 2022, um, we had a woman named Michelle Colón on the show. She’s a long time Freedom Fighter, and like you as an organizer, uh, in the reproductive justice space, she organized clinic defense for the Jackson Women’s Health Organization, or what we affectionately call the Pink House, that was then Mississippi’s last abortion clinic. It’s of course the same clinic that’s at the heart of the Dobbs case. And you know, in that episode she told me about the landscape of abortion access in the state for poor women, for women of color across the deep south. And she reminded us that they had been existing in a post-roe society for some time. You know, obviously following the Dobbs decision, it has gotten patently worse for everybody. And we also know that there are some white women, right? Some wealthy women, some women outside of the South who suddenly got a taste of this reality, or at least became conscious of it for the first time. Are you seeing that reflected as you hit the campaign trail in some of the conversations that you’re having?
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
I am definitely seeing that reflected in the deep South. Um, I will say that we’ve got a lot <laugh> of ways to go and a lot of work to do in the deep South. But what I am seeing in, you know, battleground states and in states where, um, you know, the margins are pretty, pretty close, uh, between Trump and, and Kamala Harris, uh, is that I’ve met so many, so many women I know that may be anecdotal, but so many white women that have said I’ve been a Republican voter for 20, 30 years, but this year I am voting for a Democrat or I’ve, um, you know, I’ve met just most recently one of the young ladies outta Wisconsin who shared her story story with New York Times. I remember sitting in a room with her three months ago where she said, look, I’m from a Republican family, I’m a Republican woman, but I’ve seen so many of my friends be denied care at 24 weeks, 18 weeks, um, you know, way past the time in which their states can kind of step in and have, um, help them as it relates to their abortion ban, but after travel over state lines to be able to get the care that they deserve.
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
And that is not right. And for that reason alone, I’m going to vote in my own interest. And I’m seeing that happening all over this country. And that’s given me a lot of hope and definitely also gives us a lot of homework in the deep South to kind of push people and move the needle towards being able to think outside the box and, and, you know, through the lens of someone else’s experience or your, own so that you can vote, you know, in your own interest. But, um, I read that article of Michelle’s where she says, um, basically she kind of became like the abortion woman, or known as the abortion woman in the state of Mississippi. And I resonated with that so very much because I still feel like it’s a very isolated issue. Um, it’s still very taboo in the deep south, and, and there’s just so much to unpack there in terms of, you know, Black maternal health statistics, but then also the way in which, um, people of color mainly live in rural areas and maternity care deserts where they don’t get basic maternal health care to begin with.
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
And then to talk about needing these, um, these measures in place to be able to access abortion care as a whole other thing. But what I’m hoping is people are looking at states like Louisiana and Mississippi and saying, we don’t wanna do this. We don’t wanna be there, and yes, we need to go in and help these folks, but for now, let’s do our homework and make sure that we get an A on this group project and vote the right way in these battleground states so that we can, you know, kind of move over to our, our deep south states to be able to help them and uplift them, not just outta poverty, because that definitely plays a role in the laws that we are seeing. But also, um, in, in the way in which we talk about reproductive justice in the South.
BRITTANY:
What do you think it’s gonna take to keep, especially some of the white women you’ve spoken to who find themselves changing for the first time on this, what do you think it’s gonna take to keep them in that long term battle? Because like you’re saying, it’s not just about reinstating Roe, it’s about tackling this in all of the places where this issue and the people who suffer most from it are shoved to the margins, right. So that people can very easily forget about folks um, after an election.
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
Yeah. And I think that’s the saddest part, right? Because we know November, come November 6th, even when Lord say the same Kamala gets in there, um, these states that have, um, abortion bans are still very much gonna look the same. Um, a state like Louisiana, Texas, so on and so forth. And so what does it look like, to your point, to do more than just Roe to move us towards, um, you know, enshrining the constitution that all 50 states can afford this opportunity to be able to have abortion care forever. And not just this, you know, back and forth patchwork approach, which has just been so problematic. And so I think it’s gonna take two things. One, um, white women having those hard conversations with their family members, with their loved ones, with the folks that trust them the most, because we know white women still hold way more power or power in general than Black women or women of color.
Yeah.
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
And so what does it look like for them to advocate on behalf of us? I think that’s a very important role to play over the Thanksgiving dinner table during Christmas. Like when you kind of shy away from those hard conversations, are you having them?
BRITTANY:
Mm-Hmm.
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
Especially if you’re an impacted woman and making sure that you are sharing that experience with your loved ones so that they can understand this too, can be you Mm-Hmm. Um, and that any injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere. And so, um, I think that’s definitely a piece of it. And then secondly, helping people understand we’ve gotta engage not just around elections, but like 365, in your community, what does it look like to really on the local level, um, you know, try and engage on this issue of reproductive justice because it starts there. And I think that’s another piece that we constantly forget, um, but definitely is probably the most important missing piece of the puzzle.
BRITTANY:
I mean, just to keep it a buck. Like I, you know, I’m one of those folks who like, look, whatever, whatever got you here. I’m glad you’re here. We need you vote.<laugh>. Like, I need you to be.
BRITTANY:
Yeah.
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
Even if you just posting the thing on the day that everybody’s supposed to post the thing, thank you for doing it. But I have to admit that sometimes I get that little ping of frustration inside this like, well, have you been paying attention this whole time? Like, where have, where have you been? Do you ever feel like that? How do you, how do you process that? Especially when, when white women are coming to you and saying, I just didn’t know. I’m here now, but I just didn’t know.
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
Yeah. It’s rough. Right? And then I have to constantly remind myself, especially in a state like mine, where we are just so entrenched with religion in our education system, and it just plays such a huge role in how we, um, you know, have an outlook on life in our adult years if we’re not getting, you know, proper sexual education at age 12, 13, but instead hearing the biblical version of that. And I have to remember, those white folks were in those same classrooms with us, right?
BRITTANY:
Mm-Hmm.
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
And so that the, the way they approach the conversation matching that and or marrying that with privilege, like it’s very easy for them to, um, rise to the occasion a little too late. Um, but I definitely agree with you. I try to like, kind of recenter myself and, and help myself understand like, you know, we cannot have won the civil rights movement without white people. And that’s kind of what we’re looking at right now with the reproductive justice freedom movement. Like we are looking at having to make sure that everyone is at the table in order to win on this issue. And so I kind of just always move myself back there.
BRITTANY:
Mm-Hmm.
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
As frustrating as it may be, um, you know, as annoying as it may be, even just like thinking of some of my really good friends now who are white women who, um, 10 years ago would’ve told me, Kaitlyn, your fight is just about, you know, killing babies or just like this place ignorance after, remember, like, they were getting the same education I was getting, they were being taught the same things. I mean, heck, we just, we’re kind of litigating right now in the, say, Louisiana on the 10 Commandments law, right?
BRITTANY:
Yes, you are.
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
And that’s just where we’re at <laugh>, you know, like we are, we are 20, 40 steps back from, from most states and after, remember that. Um, and even when it’s, you know, white women all across this country, you know, who have kind of operated in privilege up until this point, I’m glad you’re here. It is frustrating that it took you a minute, but, you know, let’s catch you up and get you in the fight.
BRITTANY:
Let’s catch you up and get you in the fight. You know, I’m, I’m from Missouri originally, so not the deep south, but some of these things are sounding very familiar, especially when we talk about the context of religion and how it shapes education, society, culture in your space. And we know that underpinning the fight for abortion rights and reproductive justice is the need to protect bodily autonomy for everyone. Um, so protecting that access to quality, affordable medical and healthcare for everyone is indeed interconnected. And when you talk about taboo topics, I mean, abortion rights are taboo. And then when we talk about people’s gender identity and sexuality, folks get even more discombobulated. Um, we know that Dobbs is being used as a legal pathway to justify bans on healthcare for transgender adolescents, um, and to deny them gender affirming care. And I don’t know if that connection is really clear to everyone, or if everyone’s comfortable making that connection, especially those who oppose queer and trans rights. What do you think is the key to building solidarity not just in the long term, but also across these multiple issues?
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
Yeah, I think that’s such a good question. And I would have to say, um, one of my best friends, Logan, he’s, um, a member of the queer community, love him to death, and he always educates me, right? Like, so when I’m at the capitol fighting on reproductive freedom, I’m walking into another committee room fighting against our, you know, egregious laws around, um, LGBTQ community or just, you know, kids being able to access basic healthcare in our state, or being able to say pronouns in classrooms, which that part blows my mind, but I think what’s important is maybe we need to walk and chew gum and have those conversations, um, simultaneously. Like if we’re advocating against, um, the attack of women’s rights, we should be also be advocating against the attack of LGBTQ rights and helping people understand, again, that injustice anywhere is injustice everywhere.
BRITTANY:
Mm-Hmm.
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
And most importantly, healthcare is healthcare. So whether we’re talking about it being for women or however you identify, it should be across the board the same for everyone. And we should all feel angry about that. You know, we should all feel motivated to be able to advocate on, on behalf of those issues simultaneously. I think women’s rights definitely ushers in that conversation, um, around the attack on rights. And I don’t see why we can’t have the conversation simultaneously.
BRITTANY:
You are so right. And I think especially when we consider how we keep people, forgive the pun, undistracted, <laugh> on these issues. You said something earlier, um, about helping people remember the personal connection, right? That like, even if you think this doesn’t impact you, it impacts you. For example, it’s been powerful seeing men talk about the way that partners or former partners of theirs having an abortion actually opened a door in their life and their careers and their ability to go and build families and plan for those families in a different way. Um, to say, yes, this impacts me too. It’s not just a quote unquote woman’s issue, that this impacts me too. Um, similarly when I think about gender affirming care, right? If you are a woman who decides to leverage your bodily autonomy and goes under the knife for a cosmetic procedure to say, Hey, I wanna lift this, tuck that, and child, especially after nursing, I understand why you make the choice. Okay. Right? That is gender affirming care to say, I wanna feel my most feminine self that is gender affirming care as well. And I think connecting those dots and, and making it personal for people can help keep folks undistracted. But I’m curious, from you, what do you think can help keep people undistracted, um, knowing that this fight for reproductive justice and bodily autonomy are being pinned to the election, but they are long-term fights, even if, hopefully when Kamala Harris is in the White House? How do we keep people in this fight for the long haul and stay focused?
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
Yeah, I think that’s so good. I think constantly reminding folks that, you know, every state has a legislative session. When is yours? I think it’s important for people to understand your job doesn’t end when you cast that vote on November 5th. Or if you’ve gotta run off in your state in December, which I’m sure almost all of us do, um, your fight only begins at the ballot box. What are you doing in January, February? Most legislative sessions launch in those first three months and they will last for X amount of months. Are you going down to the state capitol and lending your voice to the same people you put in office, helping them understand their power at the city council, at the school board? Like, I think we just kinda have to get back to basic education and civics and you know, if you’re a state like mine that doesn’t wanna teach it anymore, we certainly have gotta do even harder work to make sure that we are getting in front of folks and helping them understand their power in all bodies of government, not just during a presidential election cycle.
BRITTANY:
That’s such a good reminder that you’re not there just to talk to the people who you oppose, but also to the people that you voted for, that you supported, that you put in office to say, Hey, this is why I gave the job <laugh>.
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
Yeah, exactly.
BRITTANY:
Make sure that you complete the assignment, um, before you head back out to hit the trail. Um, you got even deeper in this fight because of your own personal experience. What would you like to share with those who have faced the direct impact of the overturn of Roe heading into this election cycle, who are carrying those experiences with them to the ballot box?
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
Yeah. And, and I hate to sound so cliche, but I have to say, as someone who’s been impacted and understands that trauma and, and living with that lived experience every single day of my life, I have to say, you’ve gotta take, you know, the anger or the frustration or you know, the trauma that you feel with that experience and vote on it. And then most importantly, if you feel called or feel led, as we say at church, to be able to have those hard conversations with your family members. Yeah, maybe some of them don’t know, but I think, um, I’ll give my own family as an example. My father-in-law’s a Republican, right? A Black Republican, God help us. And he says all the time, like Kait, I would’ve never looked at the issue around abortion care, around abortion access and the way that I do now.
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
Had you not shared your story and I carry that with me daily. Um, just understanding the power of storytelling and the power of, you know, changing hearts and minds just by one simple, well very hard conversation and being able to, um, make impact with family members that have deep-seated beliefs, long time beliefs about a specific issue. And I hope people understand, women understand, especially women that have dealt with, um, the direct consequences of these abortion bans, that there’s power in that. And whether you’re sharing it with one person or many people, find that person and help them, you know, understand that you’ve got to vote like our lives depend on it this fall. They absolutely do. And we wanna make sure that people have all of the information at their disposal to make the best decisions that they can before they get to that ballot box and put us back further or move us forward, you know, to a better place that we can do more, again, more than just Roe v. Wade.
BRITTANY:
Absolutely. Kaitlyn, thank you so much for your time, for your witness, for your testimony, and most importantly, for all the hard work that you’ve been doing, not just this election season, but every single day. So thank you, thank you, thank you. And please know we got your back.
KAITLYN JOSHUA:
Of course. I appreciate y’all
BRITTANY:
The fight that we are in, the struggle that renews generation after generation, the one to which we are all responsible to make a contribution of consequence. That fight is not just for an election, it’s not for a candidate, it’s not for a party, it’s not even for a single policy. That fight is and always will be for the most just world that we can most possibly radically imagine. Thanks for being in the fight, y’all. I can’t wait to get out there with you.
BRITTANY:
Undistracted is a production of the media and our friends at Wonder Media Network. Our producers are Taylor Williamson, Hannah Bottum, and Vanessa Handy. Our editors are Grace Lynch and Maddy Foley. Thanks also to Natalia Ramirez and Sara Culley. Our executive producers at the Meteor are Cindi Leive and myself. Our executive producer at Wondered Network is Jenny Kaplan. You can follow me at mspackyetti on all social media and our incredible team at the Meteor. Subscribe to Undistracted and don’t forget to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any place you get your favorite podcast. Thanks for listening. Thanks for being, and thanks always for doing. I’m Brittany Pacnet Cunningham. Let’s go get free.