Episode 10: “Heartbreaking, Maddening and Ready to Fight”: Cecile Richards and Paola Ramos
Please note: This transcript has been automatically generated.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
All right y’all. It’s truth time. The fact of the matter is we are not going to make it without each other. And I know, I know we’re living in a dystopian world right now where all the things we thought we knew don’t seem all that true. And all the people we thought we could trust, yeah, we are looking at ’em sideways. And listen, some of that is deserved. But y’all, all of these jokes about calling ICE on people and going back to Starbucks or sitting back and putting our feet up when people are suffering, yeah, that’s not gonna work. The most impactful freedom fighters have always understood that we cannot become that which we are fighting. I know it’s tempting. I know we wanna get these jokes off and send these memes back and forth, and I understand that these raw emotions are coming from valid places.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
But white supremacy would love nothing more than for us to pick at each other instead of the systems and the institutions that it uses to hold all of us down. Now, that doesn’t mean we’re not gonna have to have some real talk with each other. That doesn’t mean we’re not gonna have to hold people to the highest standards even, and especially when we love them. Y’all are gonna have to uproot misogynoir and anti-Blackness from all of your spaces. Remember, misogynoir is the combination of racism and sexism that is unique specifically to Black women. Thanks Moya Bailey, for that term. You’re gonna have to sit back and recognize that platforms don’t come without responsibility. As somebody who tried my very best to hold a lot of space for nuanced lived experience and people’s feelings, it is weird as hell to get on the internet right now and see accounts that spend a lot of time telling us that Trump and Kamala Harris were the exact same and that the fascism was already here and it can’t get any worse. Now, posting the truth about Trump and all of the videos and nominations and evidence that is coming out, that yes, in fact it can and likely will get worse under the white guy.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
I’m not asking you all to do any soul searching that I’m not doing myself. I’m not asking y’all to be perfect anymore than I’m asking myself to be perfect. We’re allowed to be human, but we also have to know that if we wanna be human beings that are free, we’re gonna need each other. So let’s roll up our sleeves. Do the ugly, funky, smelly, difficult, challenging work of deciding to get real with each other, real with ourselves, and keep the real enemy, the institutions and the systems that hold us back, in our line of sight.
On today’s show, journalist and author Paola Ramos chats with me about the far right shift of Latino voters that helps secure Trump’s latest election win and how we could have seen it coming.
Paola Ramos:
I fear and I wonder if we’re starting to kind of see a Latinx Latino community that is actually more fractured than United and that really worries me. How do you come back from someone that believes in mass deportation and how do you bring them back to a coalition?
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
But first, it’s time to take a little look back. We are coming up, I can’t believe I’m saying this on the 100th episode of Undistracted. Can you believe it? It’s been over four years since we launched this show and y’all, we have been through a lot together. We weathered COVID, a COVID election, plenty of changes nationally and internationally. And as for me, myself, well, I went from newly married to a mother of one. And in case you missed the announcement this week, soon to be a mother of two, we’re feeling real glad over here, despite everything. As we approach this exciting milestone of the 100th episode. I wanted to revisit our very first episode, from right before the 2020 election with our guest, the Cecile Richards. She is a prolific women’s rights activist, the former president of Planned Parenthood and Co-founder of Supermajority, a political action group, which aims to drive women to the polls.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Cecile has been in this fight for so long and continues to lend us her time, talent, and energy. And lately she’s been doing that even while battling cancer. In that first episode of this show, we spoke about protecting bodily autonomy and the need for multiracial coalitions among women voters. Four years later, we still try to make it happen. With another election over. I checked in with Cecile about what her fight looks like going forward.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Cecile, it is making my heart so glad to see you. We’re rounding out entering our 100th episode era, and you are our very first guest, which for me was like the biggest get. I mean, I know we’ve gotten to know each other, but you are the Cecile Richards. You have been in the trenches. You have been, like, on the battlefield for justice, for reproductive justice, for freedom for so many years. I just, I admire you so much and I can’t believe we get to have a little conversation. Again, thank you so much. Not just for doing this, but for everything that you do.
Cecile Richards:
Well, thank you. And who knew four years ago you would be in this place, but here we are no choice but to fight forward. So glad to be on with you,
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
No choice but to fight forward. You continue to give it your all. When we’ve had you on that very first episode, we talked about Trump’s continued plot to end access to abortion rights. And this was before the overturning of Roe versus Wade when we talked. Um, and now of course we face the very imminent threat of Trump. Again, abortion was on the ballot in 10 states measures to protect access. Passed in seven of those, including my home state of Missouri. And they don’t always come through <laugh>, but we’re very proud of them. Right?
Cecile Richards:
<laugh>. The show me state
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Finally showed us something good. But given where we’re at, what does the fight for bodily autonomy need to look like to succeed going forward in a time like this?
Cecile Richards:
Well, you put it right, it’s more than an election. ‘Cause we all know the devastation of losing this election, but even in my home state of Texas
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Yeah.
Cecile Richards:
Or the state of Louisiana where I’ve been spending a lot of time, things wouldn’t materially change. So we’re gonna have to fight this on the ground and have a national right to bodily autonomy that affects all 50 states, not just the ones that ha-have the, uh, benefit of being able to pass it through legislation.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Yeah.
Cecile Richards:
Because the women I work with in Louisiana, they’re just outta luck. And it’s, it’s heartbreaking and maddening, but they’re ready to fight
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Heartbreaking, maddening, and ready to fight. I think that might be the title of the episode. ’cause I don’t think there’s a better way to sum up exactly where we are right now. You co-founded abortion in America, um, in order to help keep this fight going, it’s a national storytelling project that amplifies the voices of those like the women in Louisiana who are impacted by these abortion bans. But in this election, we told the stories, we heard about the devastation, and it just feels like it wasn’t enough to impact the top of the ticket in particular. Will this change your approach at all? Like how do you respond to this new reality?
Cecile Richards:
I’m not saying this storytelling is the, the be all end all.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Mm-Hmm.
Cecile Richards:
But it is an essential part.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Yeah.
Cecile Richards:
Because if we’re just talking about these issues in political terms, we’re not reaching the people we have to reach. So many people don’t even know what an abortion ban is, how it’ll affect them, and it’s not gonna be a quick fight. And it’s worth winning this the right way in that people stand up and, you know, vote with their feet.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
That’s right.
Cecile Richards:
And I I’ve I’ve been so impressed by the wound and others, men, fathers
Cecile Richards:
Doctors who are standing up and who’ve never, um, either had that opportunity or be asked before.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Yeah.
Cecile Richards:
So it’s gonna take a lot of folks
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
It’s gonna take a lot of folks. It’s gonna take the full village and like you said, a village of people who’ve not been asked before. Right. Who’ve not been activated around this. In 2020, we talked a lot about building a coalition, coalition among women voters. And here’s what you had to say on undistracted back then.
Cecile Richards on Undistracted Ep 1:
Of course, Black women always in the lead, the most progressive, most reliable voters in the country, and the most supportive of all the issues that we care about. But they can’t do it on their own. And we as white women, can’t rely on Black women to save us from ourselves.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
In this election, we saw that once again, Black women continue to be the backbone of democratic votership. And white women voters, unfortunately by majority, have continued to show their cards. How do we truly build this coalition going forward, especially under this incoming administration?
Cecile Richards:
I wish I knew that there was a easy solution.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Mm-Hmm.
Cecile Richards:
But it’s in, in part how we make this their fight as well. And the Black women in Louisiana who I’m working with are on the front lines and we just ne need to have more of, more folks get online as well. But making sure that everyone b-both feels responsible, but also welcome to be part of this fight is how we’re gonna do it. For too long, the fight for abortion rights was a, an exclusive club to some extent.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Mm-Hmm.
Cecile Richards: And we can’t do that anymore. Everyone’s welcome. And, and, and Sure, sure. It’s so interesting to see and maddening to see that obviously a lot of folks voted for another Trump Presidency, but that also voted for their abortion rights.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Mm-Hmm.
Cecile Richards: So we gotta close that circle.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Close that circle and close that gap before I let you go. ’cause you’ve been so generous with your time in your personal life, in your professional life, what’s giving you hope? We’re trying to get some of that too.
Cecile Richards:
I think what gives me hope is the next generation who are fearless, uh, or they’re maybe not fearless, but they’re brave and courageous. And who are telling their stories in a way that has never happened in this country that I’ve seen. If we invite them in and make them in charge, young people can lead. But I hope we do a better job of handing them the reins. The rest of us. We can get outta the way and follow instructions. Like, I’m a hopeless optimist and if we give them the support and the tools and the resources to tell our stories and to spread the word, eventually we’ll win this fight.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Yeah. We will win this fight. From your mouth to God’s ears. Listen, you have laid it all on the line for us, um, and continue to do so. So we’re gonna make sure that we step up properly, um, to make sure that you not only, um, can follow the instructions of young people and follow their lead, but also so that you can get your rest. Because we are grateful. I truly appreciate you, Cecile. Thank you so much.
Cecile Richards:
Thank you Brittany. And thank for your courage and for calling us out.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
We’ll be right back.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
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Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Hey y’all, welcome back. The key to multiracial democracy lies in coalition, but this election showed us we are not quite as aligned as we thought we had hoped. Y’all, this election, Donald Trump was backed by a historic 46% of Latino voters nationwide, more than any Republican presidential candidate since the 1970s. While some of us might find this shocking, me included, given Trump’s history of villainizing the Latino community, other people saw it coming. Palo Ramos is an author and a journalist who spent the last few years tracing the shift of Latino voters to the far right. It’s the concept behind her latest book, Defectors: The Rise of the Latino Far Right and What it Means for America. We’ve shared the screen on TV segments with each other, and she’s been on the ground talking with Latino voters throughout this election cycle as a contributor for Telemundo and MSNBC. In short, I really don’t know a better person to unpack this with.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Pao, good to see you <laugh>.
Paola Ramos:
Hello. Thank you for having me.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
I’m so glad that we are not sharing a small TV screen sitting next to each other in boxes texting each other before the second comes on, because we get to have more robust conversation over text than we do in a like seven minute TV segment. That’s right. That’s right. Um, so thanks for doing this. ’cause, child, I got questions and like, I feel like a lot of people do.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
We were talking before, there’s just so much splintering that’s happening. I feel like existing cracks got an orange bomb put in them that just blew them wide open.
Paola Ramos:
That’s right.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
And now in people’s grief and frustration and sadness and fear seeing vitriol and
Paola Ramos:
Yes.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Deep frustration. And I’m like, let’s just clear the path to have a conversation. ’cause we’re gonna need these coalitions going forward. So let’s get into it because I know that this is not just work for you because you’re a journalist, it’s personal, right? For a lot of us, Trump’s election feels like a deep personal loss. And you are queer, Latinx journalist.
Paola Ramos:
Mm-Hmm.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
And I’m sure you’ve heard the way <laugh>, that Trump talks about all three of the communities that I just named that you belong to, right? Including the media with such vitriol. And you’ve been on everybody’s network in very high demand post-election talking about what exit polls call “Latino voter outcomes.” Right? That’s the label, that’s the grouping. How are you responding to these election results on a personal level before we even get political?
Paola Ramos:
I mean, I I have to say that I, I’ve been seeing this coming for four years, you know, I mean, even, even in in 2020, I already found it deeply alarming that someone like Trump had already made gains. Right? I found it deeply alarming that after four years of having him in the White House and after four years of a country that witnessed family separation, I think since that moment until now, I’ve seen sort of hints of these patterns, right? And in, in different places across the country from the Bronx to LA to the border, to Ohio. And so on the one hand, I, I feel kind of reassured in, in my reporting because I think in the reporting, the, the hardest part is, is, is to listen regardless of what people are saying. And you, you listen to the community and I, and that’s hard. And then, and then on the one hand, it makes me worried because I, I, I fear and I wonder if we’re starting to, to kind of see a, a latinized Latino community that is actually more fractured than, than United. And that really worries me now. Like how, how do you come back from someone that believes in mass deportations and how do you bring them back to a coalition? You know? And that, and I don’t know the answer to that.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
I think that you, for me, have been one of the clearest voices in raising the flag that Latine identity is deeply complex, right? It is layered <laugh> it is multifaceted. You know, I did one of your book talks in 2020 for your, for the last book Finding Latinx, and you wrote about those tensions within defining and redefining Latine identity along many lines, right? Gender identity, sexual orientation, nationality, race. So four years later, do you feel like some of this movement to the right is evidence that we’ve been misunderstanding how complex Latine identity is?
Paola Ramos:
I think so. I do think we’ve gotten better, but I do think that for the party, for the Democratic Party, it’s been hard to understand the complexity of it all. The media finally understood the party understood the very simple notion that yes, Latinos are not a monolith, but I don’t think we’ve understood what that means.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Mm.
Paola Ramos:
And the answer to that is not in politics. Right. The answer to that I think requires really digging into the history of it all. Because then if we do that, then that allows you to explain why someone like Donald Trump was able to make inroads in a place like the Bronx, particularly, for example, among Black Latinos. Right? What, what about Black Latinos really resonated, right, with Donald Trump when Donald Trump walked into barbershops and looked at Black Dominican men and said, I am just like you. And some people believed it, and why
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
There are so many layers here.
Paola Ramos:
Yes.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
And I think it’s easy for us to be like, oh, it’s just white people who don’t understand <laugh>. But I actually think perhaps there’s a more universal misunderstanding of this.
Paola Ramos:
There is, but look, if, if you look at Trump’s strategy, the power of his message, which I think a lot of the pundits in the commentary are now kind of trying to explain these inroads that Trump made with Latino voters as purely a symptom of the, the economic anxiety.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Mm-Hmm.
Paola Ramos:
I think made that maybe too simplistic. And I think what was so powerful about his message that also really resonated with Latinos was the way that the anti-immigrant sentiment was so deeply intertwined with the economic message and the way that the transphobia was so deeply intertwined in it. And that message I saw exposed for the last two years, right? “They,” those immigrants are coming after your jobs, or “they,” the government is using government money to make “them” trans. And there’s something about that “them” that really, really, really resonated with many Americans, but also with a significant number of Latinos, right?
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Yeah.
Paola Ramos:
And it goes back to understanding like what is the root of that sort of anti-immigrant sentiment and how do we explain that and what is the roots of that sort of transphobia? And I think when you merge the fear, the anger, and the disgust, because so much of the Trump campaign was based on disgust. Because disgust is the most powerful element that creates, sort of, the action to dehumanize, right? Disgust is more powerful than anger and fear. And I think they merged all those three elements together in a very brilliant way.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
This is so interesting for me. ’cause part of what I’m hearing you name with the “them,” right? Is that people don’t wanna identify with the them, right? Yes. “Well, I’m the US,” right? “You, you can’t possibly be talking about me.”
Paola Ramos:
Exactly.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
“I’m the good kind” of insert this here.” I’m the good Black person, I’m the good immigrant, I’m the good man, I’m the good,” whatever.
Paola Ramos:
Exactly. And, and I have to say, like unfortunately, there were surveys that were already indicating this trend, and I think we kind of didn’t wanna believe it, right? Like the New York Times had a survey maybe a month before the election that showed that a majority of Latinos were simply not insulted by Donald Trump’s anti-immigrant rhetoric. And I think a lot of people dismiss that. And I’ve, I’ve, I tried to explain this as best as I can. I think you can make sense of it in, in many different ways. Number one is just the fact that there is a significant number of Latinos that have become more Americanized and assimilated and are younger and speak English. And it is true that they perhaps now feel, not only just more American, but also more detached from their immigrant roots. The other element that I think is also very real, and I’ve, and I heard in conversations many times is the, the real sense of, of disillusionment, even within immigrants, right?
Paola Ramos:
This idea that the Democratic party has failed to give them something, and therefore those sort of sentiments of resentment that Trump is so good at, sort of, exacerbating also resonated with them, right? Because then suddenly when they heard a Trump campaign saying, well, they’re coming and they’re in, they didn’t wait in line, and they’re getting your jobs. Some undocumented immigrants that have even been here for over 20 years, maybe start feeling a little bit of resentment. And then I think the, the overshadowing element of all of this is then understanding the way that this country has truly criminalized Latinos and immigrants. And I think that point drives a number of Latinos to wanna prove that they belong in Trump’s America, no? And in this white America, right? Understanding that what they really wanna avoid is being lumped into the immigrant category, right?
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Mmm
Paola Ramos:
Because that immigrant category in their heads, and when I’m saying their heads, I’m talking about a small but growing group, but in their heads, being lumped in with immigrants diminishes your social status in this country and diminishes your social value. And so I think that also drives some people, to your point, to wanna feel like they’re part of, of Trump’s America. And that’s super powerful.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Yeah. I mean, obviously you can’t speak for the entire diaspora.
Paola Ramos:
Of course not.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
But this is helpful perspective for me as someone who does not come from an immigrant background. Right. And you’ve been explaining a little bit of some of the whys that you’ve heard.
Paola Ramos: Yeah.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Do you feel like one of the whys is that some of the values and priorities of some Latine voters in this election are different than they’ve been in the past?
Paola Ramos:
Look, I think the interesting thing is the values have always been the same, right? Like when voters go to vote, everyone was voting with the economy. Some people did have the moral clarity to not vote for Trump, right? Even when they were trying to make ends meet, um, and even when they themselves are the most like oppressed people in this country, the majority of Black and brown people had the moral clarity to still not vote for someone that is a racist and someone that was promising mass deportations. And so the question is for those other 40% plus Latinos, like what, what about Trumpism led them the other way? And so I think the values remain the same, but I do think that the difference now is that I believe that there’s more of a permission structure to say what you believe. No, I think, I think for Latinos, I think there’s a legacy of voting for Democrats, right? I mean, you go to the Rio Grande Valley, which flipped the entire Rio Grande Valley, flipped for
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Trump. I’ve, I’ve been there a few times. Yeah. And I, that, that particular one was interesting to me, right?
Paola Ramos:
And one of the things that everyone will tell you is, well, everyone in my family has voted for the Democratic Party, right? And there’s this legacy of voting for Democrats. And I think now for the first time in a really long time, there’s finally this sort of, you know, people feel like they’re, they’re allowed to vote the other way.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
You know, you talk about people voting with their pockets. I like you said, I don’t know anybody who’s not voting with their pockets. Everybody is entering the ballot box thinking what is gonna happen to me?
Paola Ramos:
Exactly.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Right? <laugh>. And the most salient thing that’s happening to all of us is that everything feels expensive. ’cause it is. But part of why I voted for Kamala Harris was for my pockets, right? If you look at the economic experts and you compare Harris’s plan with Trump’s plan, it’s far better for the working class for Harris to be president, like by leaps and bounds, right? Because not only is it gonna be better for the working class, it’s going to cost the top one and 2% money, right? They’re gonna finally have to start paying some of their fair share. And yet the messaging <laugh>, or how people received the messaging about the economy seems so different, uh, when Kamala Harris was talking about it than when Trump was talking about it. For me, it’s like, it feels like they just didn’t wanna hear it coming from a Black woman, which I think is, is part of it. But I’m, I’m curious your thoughts.
Paola Ramos:
I agree. I think this was an election where people didn’t vote out of sort of rational thinkings, to your point. And they voted out of emotion and feelings. And I think that leads to very two very different outcomes. And I also think that as voters, we are so fundamentally different from who we are, from who we were four years ago, right? Like even the, the way that we consume information, the way that we feel anxieties, like we, we’ve changed. And I think Trump was able to really tap those feelings. And then I think what what worries me though is it seems like many are trying to say that, that the democrats were, were, we’re too far left,
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Which is wild to me.
Paola Ramos:
<laugh>, I see so many Op-Ed saying that, you know, they were, I can’t believe it. They were too, too woke for the working class. Is it that the Democratic party was too far left? Or is it that they actually lacked enough political courage and imagination to give Latino voters that are at the left what they needed, right. Which was a way more pro-immigration message, which was a lot more distance from Trump’s cruelty.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Yeah. We’ve been talking about identity. We’ve been talking about feelings. Part of I think the intersection of those is the gender divide, right? So when we look at Trump’s voter base, he’s more popular among Latino men than he is among Latino women, though his share of support in both of these groups has increased since 2020. So from the voters that you’ve spoken to, how is gender playing a role in that support for Trump?
Paola Ramos:
I mean, I’ll, I’ll say what I saw clearly with the sort of Latino men world, even since 2022. You see, during the midterm elections, one of the things that Stephen Miller’s group America First did is they went into Spanish language, heavy Latino districts in Colorado, and they really pushed this transphobic message. And the message, of course, was full of dis and misinformation. But essentially it, it went along the lines of the Democratic party wants to make your kids trans. And I think what they were betting on was this idea that this transphobic message, which was still wrapped in the economic anxieties and all of this stuff, that the transphobic message would be able to invoke a very specific moral panic among some Latino men. And that was a panic that really would feel familiar to them because it would make them feel uncomfortable in the face of all these, like gender norms changing and this country changing and sort of weakening their maleness, no? Their madness. And so I think in Trump’s misogyny, some people felt very empowered. And then I think the other, the other side of it, and I, I think about this a lot. I think when the Madison Square Garden, New York, Puerto Rico comments happened, right?
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Because I was gonna ask, yeah.
Paola Ramos:
<laugh>, we all, in our little media bubble, we were all freaking out, right? We were like, this is the moment. Like the Democratic Party has this, right? Latinos will overwhelmingly reject that type of language. But I think what we were missing, the blind spot is that in the other media world, the Joe Rogan world…
Paola Ramos:
Mhmm
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
If you look at the numbers, Joe Rogan’s audience is over 30% Latina. And so for years they’ve been having conversations in a sort of distant, you know, world where they’ve been normalizing this language and exposing their feelings.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Let’s talk more about this though, because you have consistently been ringing the alarm on how normalized it has been far beyond this current election, right? Um, you spoke about it on MSNBC recently. =
Paola Ramos on MSNBC:
A scholar called Benjamin Knoll that it, that in the early two thousands was seeing the following. And he said that as Latinos in this country would assimilate right, as he would spend more and more years in this country, he said that their pro-immigrant bias would dissipate and perhaps even disappear altogether.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Can you talk a little bit more about how Latina assimilation, right, in this seduction of assimilation or the command that one needs to assimilate has influenced really the demographics, American identity?
Paola Ramos:
I think to understand Latino voters is to understand that we, we have constantly romanticized the idea of whiteness knowing. And that begins from the Spaniards starting with a caste system where of course, enslaved people were all the way at the end, followed by indigenous people, followed by white folks. That structure, of course, then gives place to mestizaje, a racial mixing. And that racial mixing in and of itself creates the illusion of this raceless Latin America. But more than anything, this idea of a racist Latin America gave place to then a permission structure where every single one of us will always be able to draw a direct line to whiteness. And so I think in, I mean, you know, anyone that goes to Latin America, you ask so many people, what is your race? So many people won’t even be able to answer that question.
Paola Ramos:
You’ll, you’ll get all sorts of answers. It makes sense then that our idea of race manifests in the United States in extremely complicated ways that don’t make any sense, right? Because we, we, we don’t know how to see race and binaries in Latin America. And so I think in a country that criminalizes Black and brown people, many Latinos will opt to always sort of play that racial dance and opt to sort of see themselves within the light of, of whiteness. And I, and I, and I think an interesting example is the way that, for instance, Latino far right members will enter the space of white nationalism. It is often by introducing themselves as the descendants of Spaniards, always.That is their entry point into that world by saying, oh, you may see me as a brown person or as a Latino person, but I am the descendant of Spaniards, right? I come from Europe. And that is the entry point into that world. And in conversations you’ll hear that, right? In very subtle ways. Like I’ve been in the Rio Grande Valley so many times when Mexican people will say, oh no, but I, but I’m also Spanish. I’m Spanish, you know, or in the Bronx, soy blanco. I’m, I’m light, I’m, I’m light dark. Many people will say,
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
This is all a deeply educational experience for me. But part of the reason why you’re so poised to have this conversation is ’cause you’re a reporter, right? So you are, you are having these conversations with people every day and trying to make sense of all of these varied perspectives. How are you hearing from Latine voters who did not support Trump? Like how <laugh>, how were they responding to the news in the conversations you’ve been having?
Paola Ramos:
I mean, look, I was in, I was in Phoenix watching the election results with mixed status families. I spent the night with mostly young US-born kids whose parents were undocumented. And at the beginning they were so excited about the potential of, you know, of, of, of this country rejecting what Trump was saying. And I think at the end of the night, they were, they were really scared. And I think what will be interesting to see is if that fear, like if this country now once again is exposed to family separations and mass deportations and the racial profiling that will ensue what happens then? Right? Does does the shift to the right within Latinos continue, or does it sort of morph into something else now? Does, does it go back to, to where we were maybe four or five years ago, which was I think a more sort of compassionate community, but I think pe people are feeling very, very anxious.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
It is frightening that we are subject to the imagination of evil people. You know, two more questions before I let you go, because we’re talking about how the right has attracted so a, a growing number of Latina voters, but there’s also an acknowledgement that, that we spoke about a little bit before, that the Democratic party may not be attracting people enough. Right. Do you have thoughts or are you hearing thoughts from others about what they feel like the Democratic party is missing when it comes to appealing to a diverse group of Latine voters?
Paola Ramos:
I I don’t think anyone has the answer right now. And the answers that I’ve been hearing are, are completely at odds. Right. I’ve, I’ve heard from some like Latino democratic operatives that will even say things like, using the word Latinx was a huge mistake. You know, in, in that word, we lost Latino voters. Then you have another part of, of Latino voters in the party that, that wants to sort of appeal to those people at the southern border in the Rio Grande Valley that voted for Republicans based on three words, God, family, country. And I think in their, in their head they’re thinking, how do we bring back those traditional Latino voters? And then again, there’s the other side of it that is like, no, bring in trans people and bring in everyone that voted, voted for Gaza.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Yeah.
Paola Ramos:
And you bring in everyone that believes that undocumented immigrants deserve to be in this country. And I think the question is, can those two things coexist?
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
It does feel like they’re at odds with each other listening to you kind of report some of that out. I think that if I can go back to where we began, it feels strange also, at least on paper, right? To be told I should be feeling at odds with, uh, community with whom I have felt natural allegiance.
Paola Ramos:
Yes.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
And like in my own personal capacity, right. Have like, built a lot of community and relationship there. And I’m just curious from your perspective, what you feel like beyond any party structure or messaging or donors or ground game or whatever, what do you feel like it’s gonna take for us to, I don’t even know if the proper word is rebuild the coalitions, but certainly build them anew so that we are a bit more fireproof than it feels like we are right now, <laugh>
Paola Ramos:
Yeah. I think we’re, we’re, we’re all so quick to, you know, to, to look at these numbers and, and, and, and start pointing fingers. Um, I think in 2020 I saw this now the way that the party kind of just like dismissed these little in rows that Trump was making in Miami-Dade County or in the Rio Grande Valley. And I think people were so quick to dismiss that because they ran with the story of, well, the Democrats are still winning. And that story remains to be true. The Democrats won the Latino vote. But I think it is a disservice to believe and to not be alarmed at the idea that 40% plus people could even fathom to vote for someone like Donald Trump. And I think if, if we believe that’s a disservice, then that’s going to require a lot of humility, a lot of listening.
Paola Ramos:
And maybe maybe the, the belief that that what it takes to bring people back to this party or, or forget the party, back to a movement that is more united and that has the same values. Um, what it takes is, is educating people about where this racism comes from and about what our history has taught us. And I have to do that myself every single day. I don’t know any of these answers, but I think it’s way too easy to kind of dismiss people as these like radical Latino Trump voters. And it’s harder to understand part of the pain that kind of leads people to find belonging in these worlds. Um, and that to me is where I want to be, right? Like, I wanna understand the root cause of things and I would welcome people to, to try and do that with an open head. And that that doesn’t mean justifying anything. It just means understanding what our community’s telling us,
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Understanding what our community’s telling us. And I think to your point, correcting virulent miseducation, right? That all colonized and oppressed people of the world are not only subject to but targeted by.
Paola Ramos:
That’s right. Exactly.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Paola, I wanna thank you ’cause I know you have been at this nonstop and I’m grateful that we could have a bit more of an in-depth conversation about this than I feel like is happening in most places.
Paola Ramos:
This feels almost like therapy. So thank you.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Like I said, we gotta lot of work to do, but we gonna get into it here at Undistracted. So that we can get out of this era and onto the future together.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Undistracted is a production of the Meteor and our friends at Wonder Media Network. Our producers are Hannah Bottom, Vanessa Handy, and Brittany Martinez. Our editors are Grace Lynch and Maddie Foley. Thanks also to Natalia Ramirez and Sara Culley. Our executive producers at The Meteor are Cindi Leive and myself. And our executive producer at Wonder Media Network is Jenny Kaplan. You can follow me on all social media @mspackyetti on all social media. And our team @TheMeteor. Subscribe to undistracted and rate and review us y’all on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or all the places your find your favorite podcasts. Thanks for listening, thanks for being, and always, thanks for doing. I’m Brittany Packnett Cunningham. Let’s go get free.
Reggie Cunnigham:
Hey everybody, this is Brittany’s husband Reggie, and she doesn’t know I’m doing this, but this week was her birthday, as many of you know, and I thought it’d be fun to surprise her at work here on the podcast. So Brittany, happy birthday. I love you. I hope you have the most wonderful week. You absolutely deserve it. You bring so many people in this world, joy, and we wanted to give some of that joy right back to you. So I brought some friends along to say so too.
Cari Champion:
Happy born day. Um, miss Packet, Brittany Packet, Cunningham, happy birthday. I love you so much. Um, your heart obviously is one of your best qualities. Thank you for always supporting everyone around you and finding the words when, quite frankly, sometimes we just cannot. Um, love you, enjoy your birthday. You deserve to be celebrated every day and all day.
Jovian:
Happy birthday Bebe. It’s me, Jovi. Oh my goodness. I just thank God for you sis and for what’s to come this next season of life. As you walk into this chapter, know that you will never and you have never walked alone. We are walking beside you, in front of you, behind you, and making sure that you are always being who you are called to be. Sis love you. The absolute smither reads, you’re one of one, always meant to be one because you are that…what? girl love you. Happy birthday sister.
George and Jorgie Peters:
Happy birthday.
Child’s voice: Happy Birthday.
George and Jorgie Peters: We
Child’s voice: love
George ,Jorgie Peters and child, together :You! Have a good birthday. Gonna say, time <laugh>.
LaTosha Brown:
Happy birthday, beautiful. Brittany, I am so grateful to God to to know you, to call you sister, to learn from you, to pray with you, to sing with you, to laugh with you. I pray that this is the best year of your life. And yes, that is possible. I pray that your family continues to grow, that your husband and you are able to make the beautiful life that you both deserve and desire, and that the boys flourish in peace, joy, and prosperity. Love you my sister. Bye-Bye
Joy Ann Reid:
Brittany Pacnet Cunningham, I love and adore you. You are so brilliant. You are so sweet, so kind. And listen, when you pray for us, we not only feel prayed up, we feel closer to God because you just have a voice and a spirit and just an ethic and a kindness and goodness that is just unmatched and unmatchable. I’m wishing you and that little bundle in your belly, the best day ever. You are the baby mama, <laugh> of the machetes. And we could not be the machetes without you. So we love you youngest machete. I hope your birthday is ev-e-ry-thing ’cause you deserve, deserve, deserve. You and your beautiful children and your husband have the best day ever. Happy birthday, love. And this is joy, by the way, <laugh>.
Sunny Hostin:
Happy, happy birthday bishop. Um, it’s Sunny. I hope that, um, your day is filled with love and joy and, um, prayer of course surrounded by your friends and your loved ones. We love you so much and uh, I’m blessed to call you friend. Have a great day,
Tiffany Cross:
Dearest Brit. I wanna wish you the happiest of birthdays. I’m so excited about all the blessings you have awaiting you this year. And my only request on your birthday is to please bless us with that beautiful voice more. You know, I love a singer and you have such a beautiful, beautiful voice. I hope you sing for us more ’cause there’ll be things to sing about. Um, and I love you and I’m so grateful for your friendship and the sage spirit you bring to our sister circle. Love you deep girl. And I cannot wait to celebrate you this year with everything you have, um, coming, including that new bundle of joy in your belly. You are wrapped in my prayers, my thoughts, and my love. Sister happy birthday.
Erinn Haines:
Hey Brittany, it’s Erin, your favorite machete. Don’t worry, I won’t tell the others. Listen, I just wanted to say happy birthday and I love you so, so much. I hope that your birthday is everything that you deserve and nothing you don’t, and that this is your best year ever. I love you. I miss you, and I’m just so proud to be your friend.
Dr. Brittany Cooper:
Hey Brittany, this is Brittany Cooper, the second half of B squared. Happy birthday sis. You are incisive, bold, funny and fearless. Thank you for how you love the people. I hope the year to come knocks your socks off with blessings.
Dr. David Johns:
Hey Brittany, it’s your brother David, and I am so very thankful for the gift of you. I pray that your next turn around the sun brings you unyielding joy and all of the Afro futuristic dreams you can summon. I’m so very thankful for the love and labor that you invest to ensure that all of us get closer to freedom together. Thank you. Happy Birthday, sister.
Reggie Cunnigham:
Say “happy birthday, mommy.”
Brittany’s son:
Happy Birthday Day.
Reggie Cunnigham:
<laugh>. That was Carrie, champion Jovian George and Georgie Peters, Latasha Brown, Joy-Ann Reid, Sonny Hostin, Tiffany Cross, Aaron Haynes, Brittany Cooper, and David Johns and our son Brittany. Happy birthday. I love you and I’m definitely gonna be filming you listening to this because I know the reaction is gonna be crazy.