Episode 15: The Year of Our Power: The Group Chat and Rev. Neichelle Guidry Make Resolutions
Please note: This transcript has been automatically generated.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham: (00:00)
Hi everyone. I hope you’re doing all right, and welcome to this last stretch before the holidays. Today’s episode is a critically important one, and it also includes mentions of sexual assault. So be warned and take care of yourself while you’re listening. And if you can’t listen, that’s okay too. We love you.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Hey, y’all. This year is slowly but surely coming to an end, or maybe rapidly, depending on what day it is. Some days it feels like time is moving at a snail’s pace, and other days it feels like I just can’t keep up. But whatever it feels like, what we know to be true is that just around the corner is Trump 2.0. We’re all preparing in some way or another. Maybe you’re making big purchases now as you anticipate the rise in prices from tariffs or, or trying to stock up on shelf stable items, because he definitely reneged on that grocery price promise. Wow, who saw that coming. At the end of the day, we have a lot to get ready for, and there’s an open question about exactly who he is going to get to run this government. Plenty of them have been incredibly accused of sexual abuse, sexual harassment, and sexual assault. If there’s no moral leadership coming from the highest offices in the land, who’s supposed to maintain it? Well, that’s up to us, my friends. We’re the ones we’ve been waiting for, but I didn’t quite know that this was going to be our task.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Okay, so let’s rewind to two months ago in October, a few weeks before the election, 200 survivors of sexual assault took out a full page ad in the new New York Times loudly stating that Reelecting a proven sexual abuser was utterly unacceptable. I was very proudly one of those 200, and we all know how that turned out. But as the president-elect rolls out, his cabinet picks, it appears that this quality, having a record of credible sexual assault allegations against you may in fact be a feature, not a bug. You not gonna fumble the bag with that. In fact, you might get a bigger one. Trump’s controversial cabinet picks are full of people who’ve been accused of sexual wrongdoing. Former attorney general nominee Matt Gaetz, who was investigated by the Justice Department for potentially sex trafficking a minor.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Proposed Secretary of Defense, Pete Hegseth, who settled out of court with a woman who claimed he sexually assaulted her at a conference. And proposed education secretary Linda McMahon, who was accused of enabling the same kind of behaviors and abuses within the WWE, which she co-led with her husband. We do want to note that all of these nominees have denied the charges.
I don’t know about you, but I find this trend disturbing to say the very least. But it’s extremely brave women and men who continue to come forward and share their stories that make the difference. To look carefully at this moment, I spoke with two women who have spoken out Eliza Cooney, a former part-time nanny for Robert F. Kennedy Jr’s family in the late 1990s, who has come forward with allegations of sexual misconduct against the potential health and human services secretary. Kennedy has declined to publicly comment on the allegations. And Natasha Stoff, a journalist and New York Times bestselling author who was working for People Magazine when she says Donald Trump assaulted her. These are allegations he denies.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Natasha, it’s nice to see you again, Eliza, it’s nice to meet you. I wish it were under better circumstances, but I am deeply grateful to both of you for choosing to share your stories with me and with our undistracted community. So welcome.
Eliza Cooney:
Thank you.
Natasha Stoynoff:
So glad to be here.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Have you all met each other before? Is this the first time
Eliza Cooney:
First time, we’re waving across the screens?
Natasha Stoynoff:
Yeah, I’ve been watching her story.
Eliza Cooney:
Same.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
It’s so, you know, I have shared openly before that I am a survivor myself. And so it is always a strange thing to realize that you are in this kind of unfortunate sorority with strangers that you suddenly feel immediately tied to because, um, you share some story and some circumstance. Um, but Eliza, I I wanna start with you because your story, um, is the more recent and perhaps the least familiar to our listeners. Could you briefly share your experience with Robert Kennedy Jr.
Eliza Cooney:
I worked for him right outta college. I had accepted a position to work with him in his environmental law practice, but part of the deal, since this was a sort of low paying gig, was that room and board would be covered. I would live with him, the family. Mm-hmm . And I would care for his kids on weekends when the full-time nannies were off. My initial experience was he’s friendly, he’s jovial, he’s, he’s easy to talk to and get along with, and he’s funny, and I like funny people and you know, I like to be funny. So there was not a formality, let’s say, in the working relationship.
Eliza Cooney:
We had our sort of initial briefing. It was at the house at Bobby’s, and we were in the kitchen. We sat at the kitchen table. It was not a big kitchen table. Bobby was to my right around the corner. My soon to be coworker Murray was across the table. And as we’re going through and, and being briefed on this Hudson River project that we were gonna work on, I feel, you know, a knee next to my knee and a hand on my knee and a hand up my thigh. And I sort of move over and I think, Hmm, that must’ve been a mistake. And, you know, and it kept happening. I was surprised and assumed or wanted to assume, or was doing the mental gymnastics of, he doesn’t know that he’s touching me. He is somehow lost in thought and imagining that he’s next to his wife at the kitchen table, or, he doesn’t know that that’s my leg, not his leg or et cetera. He left the room and I mentioned something to Murray immediately after and I didn’t tell anybody else.
Eliza Cooney:
The next instance is, uh, the time when, uh, I was living on the second floor where the, where the family lived and the kids’ bedrooms and Mary and Bobby’s bedroom were on that floor. And, and he came down the hall, um, with a big bottle of Kiehl’s lotion and, um, asked if I could do him a favor, asked me to put lotion on his back. And at the time I remember thinking “gross, this is like an old dude. I don’t want to touch an old dude.” But then I thought, okay, well if my mom came down the hall and needed me, or my dad came down the hall and needed me, would I do it? Yes, I would do it. Okay, fine. I’m gonna do the favor. I applied, said lotion on the back. He left, didn’t go any further than that.
Eliza Cooney:
And again, mental gymnastics, he chalk it up to, okay, you know, it’s like helping my dad out. I was naive. It was not occurring to me. All of the things that I’m now aware of, let’s say, of why that would not be normal, not be acceptable, be inappropriate…
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Sure
Eliza Cooney:
Slash wrong, and I didn’t talk about it with anybody. And then later, there was a time where I go in to get pasta from the pantry, and there are shelves, and I am facing away from the door toward the shelves, reaching up to get a box of pasta. And I feel him, his hands behind me on my hips, the way you might with somebody that you’re dating or involved with. And they then, you know, slid on up the sides in a sort of what one would imagine is a sexy way up to the side of my chest. He was between me and the door. I was not facing him.
Eliza Cooney:
I was stunned as people, as people, as you read about. People are sort of shocked or don’t move, it’s not registering, it’s like, wait, what? Um, and at that moment, uh, somebody who happened to be doing work on the property outside or wherever, walked into the kitchen, and I could not see this person enter, but I could hear him make his presence known. And it sounded more like a warning. I took it to be to Bobby, and it sounded something like, don’t do anything you wouldn’t wanna read about in the papers or don’t do anything you wouldn’t want your wife to know.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Mm-hmm.
Eliza Cooney:
At that point, Bobby’s hands dropped and I didn’t say anything. There was no big confrontation of any sort. I realized that that was not an accident. You know, there was another instance that same day where there, there had been work going on in the house and there was plastic sheeting set up where, you know, you’d unzip the plastic wall and walk through. And he like, comes up behind me and like, tries to get in the plastic wall with me, like, quit it! That was the first time that I realized really, I think what he was up to, and realized that I needed to make myself known. And in my memory, he never tried anything again.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
You said you didn’t talk to anyone about this for almost 20 years. You wrote it down in your journal, and then this past summer you decide to speak publicly about it because Kennedy is running for president. And after your account comes out in Vanity Fair, you said that Robert F. Kennedy texted you an apology.
Eliza Cooney:
True story.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
What was it like to receive that message? I mean, were you surprised? Did it…
Eliza Cooney:
No.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Did it help? Did it hurt? Was it–
Eliza Cooney:
I was not surprised. Not surprised at all. Um, didn’t think it was the wisest move.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
His lawyers probably wish he hadn’t done that.
Eliza Cooney:
Right? I mean, he has access to attorneys. He is one. I wasn’t surprised, but I thought, yeah, no, I’m not, I’m not meeting with you. I’m not talking about this like, nice try. And had it been in the same vein as the way he was speaking publicly, I might have felt differently.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Hmm.
Eliza Cooney:
But the fact that he’s interviewed about it and says, uh, oh, I would never eat a dog. Never, never, never, never. Definitely. No. Well, sir, what about the nanny? Well, you know, I’m not a church boy. A lot of skeletons in the closet definitely wouldn’t eat a dog though.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Yeah.
Eliza Cooney:
Yeah. Come on, dude. Like, and then you’re gonna, on the back end, you’re gonna send this text like, oh, maybe I can clean up an aisle four quietly.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Yeah. You spoke with Vanity Fair when he was running for president, and he’s obviously now up for a very prestigious cabinet position under Trump, and you continue to use your voice. It’s clear that he might not be taking these abuse allegations all that seriously, but have you felt like the allegations against him have been taken seriously more generally? Has anyone from the Senate or the FBI, for example, reached out to you? Because of course, the FBI vets the cabinet candidates and the Senate confirms the cabinet candidates. Have you heard from anyone over there?
Eliza Cooney:
Not yet.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Hmm.
Eliza Cooney:
But I’m open. I consider it a civic duty.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
You’re remaining open.
Eliza Cooney:
Yes.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Mm-hmm . Yeah. Natasha, you were one of the first women to share allegations against Trump back in 2016 when you went, uh, public with what happened to you in 2005 during an interview for People Magazine, where you were a reporter.
So you were at Mar-a-Lago. Melania is upstairs, and you say that Trump pinned you against the wall and forcibly kissed you. When you first shared this, what did you anticipate was going to happen?
Natasha Stoynoff:
I thought that the voting public in the United States would listen to a story like that. And the other stories that were coming out and say, we would never want a predator in the White House. We are not voting for this man. I sincerely thought that that was how people felt and thought. I was wrong. And I was pretty darn shocked when he won the election in 2-16. And at first I thought, oh, they didn’t believe us or believe me. And then in the few weeks after that election, it dawned on me what was actually more horrifying, which is that they believed us, but didn’t care.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Hmm. When you say “us,” there are of course, multiple folks who have come out with accusations against Trump. Three of you all were on a call that I hosted alongside some other incredible leaders during the election. And you’ve shared that you’ve become friendly with dozens of other women who have made claims against Trump. What is that relationship like? I mean, obviously you’ve shared the experience of coming out, telling those stories and having people say, we know and we just don’t care.
Natasha Stoynoff:
Well, as, um, Eliza will probably tell you it’s a very unique situation to be in. To…it’s not unique that women are assaulted. What is unique is that you are coming out about somebody who is running for president. And so when we first told our stories in 2-16, several of us, we were very alone. Um, I didn’t know any of them then, and there was no one I could really relate to, um, or find support with. As we got to know each other, which was more 2019, 2020, we really created what as, what, to use the word you used earlier, a sorority kind of, I called a sisterhood. We’ve, we called it New York Times, a a a strange sorority. Um, and no one wants to be a member of.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Yes.
Natasha Stoynoff:
And so what we found with each other and our stories, which were very similar and overlapping, was we found a lot of support with each other.
Natasha Stoynoff:
And throughout the years, and now I’ve known some of these women for, you know, 6, 7, 8 years. Not only do we talk about him, uh, but, but anytime we see something in the news, you know, we have an ongoing, we have Aooms, we have a WhatsApp group, we vent with each other. We, we allow ourselves to, to be emotional about what we see, you know, when something like happens with Diddy or something happens with these cabinet picks.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Sure.
Natasha Stoynoff:
Any, any story we see in the public about women and sexual assault we talk about and connect with and have a little bit of support session, and it’s very helpful.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
How is the group feeling since these results came out?
Natasha Stoynoff:
Just, you know, whatever horror we felt in 2-16 is multiplied even more so now, because for some voters, you could use the excuse that they didn’t know what he was like, you know? But now we know what this man is like.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Yeah.
Natasha Stoynoff:
And, uh, you know, and I could argue that there’s still a lot who do not.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Yeah.
Natasha Stoynoff:
Um, I, I, I told the story something I wrote in People Magazine just before the election that I had this Uber driver in Montana who didn’t really know about any of the women’s stories.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Yeah.
Natasha Stoynoff:
And within the 10 minutes of this Uber ride, I took this woman, I had changed her vote. And because she, she was watching news that did not tell these stories, uh, you know, right wing media. And so I’m horrified of the disinformation that’s out there, but even more so horrified that people know what he’s like and don’t care that they’re voting for a sexual predator to lead the country.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
You know, I’m wondering from both of you how you respond when people, frankly on both sides of the aisle say, you know, that’s really unfortunate what happened to you, but, uh, that’s personal. Right. That doesn’t impact how they’ll do the job. Let’s separate the person from the position. Eliza, how do you, how do you respond?
Eliza Cooney:
I was one of those people.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Mhmm.
Eliza Cooney:
For a long time and thought for instance, during the Cuomo situation that it should not have come to be as consequential as it did. And I think that that’s a product of my not recognizing my, what I had put up with and validating. And so they go together. But my husband at that time said to me, um, we have people who can do these jobs who don’t come with the baggage.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Yeah.
Eliza Cooney:
We have people on the bench who are just as qualified.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Yeah.
Eliza Cooney:
And that did strike me, change me. We do not need to accept that to get a certain level of skill we can manage without the baggage.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
I love that it was a man that helped provoke that thought for you because it’s a reminder that like we truly can all be in this together and recognize that all of us deserve better leadership than this.
Eliza Cooney:
And it exists.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
And that it exists. Natasha, how do you respond to those folks that think there’s a bright red line between Trump and Mar-a-Lago with you that day, um, as you’ve reported, and Trump in office,
Natasha Stoynoff:
Exactly what Eliza just said. I think that so many have lived with a certain amount of sexual assault their entire lives.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Yeah.
Natasha Stoynoff:
It’s woven into the fabric of reality. And I remember when my essay first came out, there were a couple women of a certain generation. And they said to me, I, I don’t understand why you’re even saying anything.
Brittany Packnett Cunningham:
Mm.
Natasha Stoynoff:
This is normal stuff. They grew up in the Mad Men era where it was normal for your boss to try and get you drunk and chase you around the desk, and you were supposed to have sex with him or whatever. And, and, you know, and I was a teen in the seventies and grew up in the eighties, and even t
Title: The Year of Our Power: The Group Chat and Rev. Neichelle Guidry Make Resolutions
Please note: This transcript has been automatically generated.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Hey, y’all. Happy, happy New Year. I hope that the holidays found you warm with loved ones and most importantly, being taken good care of. Listen, this is a year where a lot is coming. We know that plenty is going to change for us, for our neighbors, for our loved ones, for strangers. We’ve never even met people who may have voted for this situation and unfortunately are going to F around and find out. And even more who didn’t vote for this and are still going to be subject to the whims of, well, that guy. This is a time where we need to clarify who we are, what we stand for, and how we’re moving forward. And in my book, we can’t do that unless we get clear on the patterns that got us here. So in the same ways that we’ve been examining exactly how this election went, the way that it went politically, racially, in terms of gender and all of the accusations that have been leveled against this leadership, I also wanna explore this through the lens of religion.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
You all know that I proudly self-identify as a woman of faith, that I was raised by a Black liberation theologian. And that the Jesus that I worship had bronze skin, wooly hair, was born in Palestine, lived and died for all people, and was subject to state violence. I’m a person who identifies as a progressive because of my faith, not despite it. And yet, that’s not a lot of people’s story. And I’m not saying that I’m perfect or don’t have things to learn because quite the opposite is true. But what I know is that I’ve been watching the Christian faith and so many others be weaponized for decades. Whether you find yourself to be a religious person or not, this trend is impacting you. It’s impacting all of us. It’s got a lot to do with why we’re in this political situation and why we’ll stay in it if we don’t recognize the patterns and correct them.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
On the show today, preacher, teacher, and thought leader, Reverend Neichelle Guidry joins me to discuss the dominance of conservative Evangelical politics and our cultural outposts and how we can instead leverage faith in progressive work toward the future.
NEICHELLE GUIDRY:
We are interested in fighting together, building together, loving and living together. And I do think that our religious values have the power to do that.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
But first, a new year hopefully means new beginnings. That’s absolutely the case for me, as I prepare to go from being a mother of one baby boy to two. Let me catch my breath in saying that <laugh> talk about new beginnings. I mean, that’s literally a new life being brought into this world and this world, um, well, to put it mildly, is changing massively in pretty much every arena. And at a time like this, when many of us are resetting and making intentions, I just really find it important to check in with my people. So, you know, I had to call up the group chat for this one. That’s Dr. David J. Johns, the CEO and Executive Director of the National Black Justice Coalition. And Dr. Brittany Cooper, professor of Women’s, Gender, and Sexuality studies and Africana studies at Rutgers University. They join me for a real quick chat and heart to heart about what energy they’re bringing into 2025.
Friends. Friends. Friends, friends. I miss you all.
BRITTNEY COOPER:
Happy Holidays.
DAVID J. JOHNS:
Happy holidays.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
<laugh>. Listen, we’re not doing a trending this week because it’s the start of a brand new year. We’re trying to figure out exactly figure what we should be resolved to do in a time such as this. So it was time to hit up the group chat. I know we’ve been sending memes and articles and all that kind of stuff back and forth, but I was like, I need some, I need some wisdom. I need some goodness. I need to call my friends because some days I feel so sure. And other days I’m like, what’s that mean? What’d she say? Well, what we gonna do now, <laugh>? That’s my feeling
DAVID J. JOHNS:
<laugh>
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Half the time. Ms. Juicy was like, what we gonna do now? And I’m like, girl, I don’t know.
DAVID J. JOHNS:
It’s above me now is what I feel like most of the time.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
I mean, tell me about it. Right? What are you, what are you leaving in 2024, right? What is like fully above you? I don’t wanna catch it. Don’t fall on me no more. ’cause you gotta stay in last year.
DAVID J. JOHNS:
So what I’m leaving in <laugh> 2024 is other people’s work.
BRITTNEY COOPER:
Ooh.
DAVID J. JOHNS:
I am not interested in doing the mental gymnastics required to figure out how to communicate to people who are not Black people who love other Black people, who are not people who understand that democracies have to be defended with each generation. So I’m channeling my energy in the places where I believe it is as spent. Um, while other people do the work of gathering their kinfolk.
BRITTNEY COOPER:
Yes.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Gather. Gather. I know that’s right. You got one now, Coop.
BRITTNEY COOPER:
I mean, it’s the thing that I have been trying to do all year, which is, you know, I’m not talking to people that aren’t my peers. Not about serious politics. Like I’m just not doing it anymore. Like
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
You say, you’re not qualified for this conversation. I’m not
BRITTNEY COOPER:
Having it with you. I mean, listen, I love John Henry Clarke’s quote. You know, I only debate my equals all others I teach. And I think that that is my energy. Um, because I think we expend too much energy on folks who haven’t done the work and don’t come in good faith and are not really ready to grapple in serious ways. And I don’t have time or energy for foolishness. I never had time. We have even less time for it now. And I think that we have also practiced. It’s just like, you know, we, you know, everybody’s trying to sit down, be humble with each other. And that means that sometimes we not establishing proper boundaries. And so we’re expending our energy in places that people really aren’t worthy of it. Not because they aren’t worthy humans, but simply because you gotta be worthy to be in certain conversations. That means you have to have done the reading of the room and the text and all the things and people ain’t out here reading.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
That means you need to have done the reading of the room and the text <laugh>
BRITTNEY COOPER:
Period. Quotable quota,
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Yes, quotable. But I’m gonna tell you what, I’m leaving in 2024. Similarly, I’m leaving everything. That’s not my business. What other people think of me who don’t love me, not my business, what people are invested in doing with their time, their talent, their treasure. That does not serve me, not my business. Anything that does not aid in my ability to raise these boys in the most free way possible. Not my business. Like I am. Just really clear that the work doesn’t stop. But it does shift because…I have exhausted myself. Both of y’all have exhausted yourselves. So many of the people that we love, respect and admire have exhausted themselves being kind enough, generous enough, magnanimous enough to make other people’s business their own. Meanwhile, we got stuff to fix in our own house. We have people to take care of, to love on. We have spirits to restore.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
We have rooted ways to go and relearn and share with each other. We got books to read, right? We got books to write. Hello. So if it’s not my business, <laugh>, it’s staying in last year, baby. And I’m having, to both of you all’s points, very clear boundaries about what is my business and to what is not. And that doesn’t mean that I’m not invested in our collective wellbeing, right? It means that I understand that if I am not well, I can’t invest in our collective wellbeing, right? That like, I am actually worth seeing myself as part of the collective instead of seeing myself last in line while taking care of everybody else, which is a plight that we have too often accepted for ourselves. Okay? So that’s what we leaving in 2024. And I’m also leaving broken nails. ’cause my, I need a full set. My situation is looking to, to quote the poet. Otherwise I see you David, that that is a very fresh set. <laugh>. It’s very seasoned. Greetings.
DAVID J. JOHNS:
Just love to shop today.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
<laugh>, Like the poet said, sit down, be humble. I’m over here trying to hide these hands and y’all know I talk with my hands very hard. Anyway, so we’re leaving broken nails, broken promises, <laugh> in 2024. What are you all taking into 2025? Um,
DAVID J. JOHNS:
You know how I do, I think in threes. So the first one is, I’m recommitting to being a mediocre white person’s worst nightmare <laugh>.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
I was like, you have to finish that phrase because there’s so many ways to…
BRITTNEY COOPER:
Go on, correct.
DAVID J. JOHNS:
Right? And here’s the thing,
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Like, I commit to having the confidence of a mediocre white man also accept an acceptable answer. But keep going.
DAVID J. JOHNS:
I’m not doing that. Because on our, on our worst day, we are better than them. Right? About our best day. And, and a part of why I, I took my time through that is because I’m no longer saying white supremacy. I am reclaiming the fact that words matter. I wanna name things as what they are. And this is most often a result of white mediocre people doing all they can to protect the privilege that they did not earn.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Mm-hmm.
DAVID J. JOHNS:
Um, and so knowing that I’m committed to keeping my foot on their m-fing necks, the second thing is guarding my joy, which is tattooed on my forearm. I know that a part of how white mediocrity works is to convince us that we should be consumed with the chaos that they create and that we should capitulate even before they bring the actual fight to us. And so I’m offering both of my last two at the same time, which is guarding my joy and resisting the urge to retreat and capitulate. Because so much of that for me is about being in community with people like y’all who will love on me, who will check me when I need to be checked, and who will sharpen me so that I can continue to do the work that I’m purpose to do.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
I know that’s right. What about you, Coop?
BRITTNEY COOPER:
You know, I started crocheting, uh, this January,
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
<laugh>. Oh, crochet. Can I get a scarf, a beanie? Some mitteens of some
DAVID J. JOHNS:
Listen, they’re telling you Black without telling me you Black.
BRITTNEY COOPER:
Correct. Also, because, you know, they call the crocheters hookers. And I really like that it’s the closest to being
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM and DAVID J. JOHNS:
<laugh>
BRITTNEY COOPER:
Yeah. Correct. Hey, I’m so glad you understand. That’s correct. Find me
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
On the stroll
BRITTNEY COOPER:
<laugh> <laugh>
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
On the
BRITTNEY COOPER:
Stroll for joy. That’s right. Respect.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
So, respect. Respect.
BRITTNEY COOPER:
So I’m gonna be crafting, because I started crafting after losing my mother. And I think that it has been a grief practice for me. And I’ve been trying to figure out like why when I have never had a crafty bone in my body or been interested in anything related to yarn, has like this meant so much. But I think that there’s something about keeping my hands busy and keeping my mind focused on things. And then the other thing that I realized is I smile deep down in my soul every time I complete a project. Like it’s, it is a smile that emanates from the inside out. Yeah. And so it has become a compass for me that I should do and make more space in my life for anything that makes me smile deeply on the inside. And so that is what I’m gonna prioritize. I’m also, you know, I feel like I’m gonna be quieter, like I’m writing some books and doing that thing, but I just feel like this is a moment to be careful with words. I have been dealing with some intimidation already from the right. And what I have said about that is I’m not going to pick any fights with any bullies. I’m also not gonna back down from any fights with any bullies
DAVID J. JOHNS:
Period.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
I won’t start it, but I will finish it. And, and
DAVID J. JOHNS:
She’s not alone.
BRITTNEY COOPER:
Consider me the end of the world. If you come for me, <laugh>, I’m the end of your world. Alright? Yes. There it is.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
There. It’s, that’s home training. All of us received. Right? Don’t start it <laugh>, but definitely finish it. Don’t ever let nobody punk you.
BRITTNEY COOPER:
I just need everybody to leave me alone and let me crochet. And so, and we won’t have no problems, but…
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
I’m just gonna make these scars. I’m not trying to bother nobody.
DAVID J. JOHNS:
I just wanna be left to crochet. That’s all I want. And so I…
DAVID J. JOHNS:
BARS.
BRITTNEY COOPER:
Bars, correct
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Bars. I’m with that. Well, listen, if you ever open the se store, make sure we put the link in the show notes. You also don’t have to, you do not have to turn this into another side hustle like we always think we have to do. But I love that both of what you’re saying reflects so much of how I’m thinking. Two things for me, I’m really bringing ancestry into this new year. I say this all the time that our ancestors did far more with far less. And I mean that thing. And I’m trying to make sure that I am rooted in the practices ways of being, ways of worshiping, ways of praying, ways of communing, ways of eating, ways of raising family that they were rooted in, right? Because that’s how they did far more with quote unquote, far less, right? With what looks like far less materially, but what was actually far more communally, right?
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
And so like, I’m in my third trimester, I put the big headphones over my tummy, the headphones is stretching like <laugh>, the headphones is like, girl, I don’t know if we’re gonna make it all the way to the end. But as I’ve been doing that, I’ve been playing the classical music, but I’ve been playing Hazel Scott. I’m also playing like Walter Hawkins, Tramaine Hawkins mm-hmm. The Clark Sisters. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I’m playing like Mississippi Mass choir. Like I’m playing spirituals on them. I’m playing Fisk Jubilee Singers and the Morehouse Glee Club. Like, I’m playing those voices on those sounds that rooted my ancestors, right? That kept them clear. And baby, that ain’t got nothing to do with Bach, right? TThat has everything to do with the, the songs and the sounds that got my people over. And that’s what I want to like, make sure this baby is coming out the womb with like, all of that.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
But, you know, even just like for you, it’s been crocheting. I’ve been getting back to cooking so much, which has been special to me. I really let myself focus on day of gratitude and feeding my family and really putting my foot in in meals, right? These recipes came from either Black folks or things from back in my past. And not only was the food delicious, it gave me a place to center my love. Yeah. And that was something that I wanted to give away in a way that required intensity and concentration and intention. And not just, oh, let me hurry up and get this done. I just don’t wanna hurry life anymore. I wanna actually be rooted in the things that, that have kept us going. Which brings me to the last thing that I’m bringing in a, in a 2025, which to your point, Brittney, is an appreciation for quiet and solitude.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
There’s something about having a baby <laugh> that gives you an a socially acceptable, ready-made excuse to say, I’m not coming <laugh>. And the truth of the matter is, we should respect people’s agency and space enough to not require them to push out a whole human being to get that kind of permission. But I’m gonna take it while I got it. ’cause the first time around, I kept trying to be back out in the mix. Like I was like, I got fomo. I don’t wanna miss it. Invite me to the shindig. Invite me to the party. I still want y’all to invite me. Keep me on the list. But just know if I come, it is because I really, really feel like it is worth me spending the time away from home. But like, there is so much good that can come from being silent enough and still enough to, for me, hear from my creator, to hear from our friends and family, to hear from ourselves, right?
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
To actually hear ourselves think and to be quiet enough to observe what is happening around us. And especially in this political era that we are reentering to be quiet enough to see the patterns for what they are and prepare ourselves. But I can’t see them and take stock of them and connect the dots properly and therefore understand what my next move should be. What I should be teaching people, what I should be sharing with people, what I should be praying for. I can’t do that if I’m talking too much to hear. Baby, we’re being quiet <laugh>, we’re reading so we don’t get read. We’re learning, we’re sharing.
BRITTNEY COOPER:
That’s right. And we ain’t saving nobody that don’t wanna be saved and no projects that don’t wanna be saved.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Don’t save her. She don’t wanna be saved. She don’t wanna, don’t save here. They don’t wanna be saved. Okay, listen man, I really, I really took it back there. I just aged us. I just aged all of us. But I know in 2025, I’m grateful for this group chat. And we’ll continue to chat, thankful for your wisdom, for your love, for giving us some things to leave behind and to take forward. And I’ll talk to y’all real soon. Peace, love you. We’ll be right back.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
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BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
We are back. It is hard to talk about the landscape of US politics without mentioning the impact of Christian nationalism. Religion’s influence on our national politics has surged. A Gallup poll from March, 2024 shows that two thirds of Americans identify as Christian and more than half align with conservative stances. Plus compared to other voting blocks, Christians show up at the polls at higher rates. Whether it’s reproductive care, women’s rights, education reform, and trans rights, evangelical and conservative Christian values are a part of the conversation. They’re also embedded into our cultural outposts like media and entertainment. But the Christianity we see does not reflect everyone’s experience. My views on politics and justice are informed by my faith too, but it looks real different. Spirituality and progress are not mutually exclusive. Frankly, if you read the book, they shouldn’t be. We can do the work and hold both things dear.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
So, today I’m chatting with someone who does exactly that, Reverend Rev. Neichelle Guidry Stewart is a preacher and thought leader who uses Womanist theology to guide Black women toward the intersection of spirituality and social justice. She’s the Dean of the Sisters Chapel and director of the Wisdom Center at the Spelman College in Atlanta. She is also the creator of, Shepreaches a virtual community and professional development organization that aspires to uplift Black women in ministry. If there’s anyone who knows how to leverage faith in our work for the future’s her. So let’s get into it.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Neichelle, welcome to Undistracted. Thank you so, so much for being here.
NEICHELLE GUIDRY:
And I’m so happy and honored to be on undistracted with you, Brittany, because I, like you, was raised in several Black Baptist churches, a Black Catholic church, and ultimately a Black non-denominational church. But it wasn’t until I started studying religion, Black religion, specifically as an academic discipline that I was even introduced to this entire enterprise of Black theology.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Mm.
NEICHELLE GUIDRY:
And so to this day, one of my greatest criticisms of a lot of us Black folk who have received formal theological education is we have not been as loud with our theological understandings of God. Not just being on the side of the oppressed, but God also being oppressed with us, right?
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Mm.
NEICHELLE GUIDRY:
Um, we haven’t been as loud. And part of that is, you know, our movements, our, our theological platforms, our voices are not the most resourced.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Yeah.
NEICHELLE GUIDRY:
You know, the radical message is never gonna be the most popular.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
This is why I wanted to talk to you because a major focus of your practice is on the spiritual wellness of Black women. And I’m curious just what that is looking like lately, like in this set of political, cultural, spiritual, social circumstances that we’re in. How have you been prioritizing your spiritual wellness and those young, beautiful Black women at Spelman that you guide every semester?
NEICHELLE GUIDRY:
I will be very forthright and just say that the day after the election I logged out of all the apps, Brittany.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Mm.
NEICHELLE GUIDRY:
It has been critical to my spiritual wellness to create a space, a season of intentional silence.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Yeah.
NEICHELLE GUIDRY:
Um, and this is not to say that I’ve, you know, been in ostrich in this season and just put my head in the sand. But it is to say I’ve had to be, become much more calculated about when and how I receive my information and which information I take in. And finally I was just like, Hmm, I need to stop, you know, in my own practice. And what I’ve learned from my teachers is there’s such a powerful dance between reflection and preparation for the future. And so I think about these next four years and I think about, you know, all of the different ways that we, we are all gonna be called upon, not just for our own thriving and survival, but for those of our community as well. And I’m like, I need to get ready for that. You know, there’s a spiritual that says I wanna be ready.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Yes.
NEICHELLE GUIDRY:
And so there’s a preparation that has to take place. And so for me, what I see is that there is a posture that is required if we’re not gonna just survive in these evil systems, but if we’re gonna rise up within ’em.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Yeah. I’m curious specifically around your thoughts as to how faith has been weaponized against women’s rights, queer rights, trans rights in such dastardly and evil ways that seem disgusting to so many of us, but are effective to so many others.
NEICHELLE GUIDRY:
So the weaponization of religion, I mean, it has been effective and it’s been effective. I mean, I wanna say since the dawning of this nation, Brittany.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Mm-hmm.
NEICHELLE GUIDRY:
Talking about Black faith in particular. It started shortly after the Civil Rights Movement, the white evangelical movement started to take notice of the political power that was galvanized in the Black church. And it became a huge part of the White Evangelical project to identify those figures and those voices that could most easily be compromised with the promise of prominence and proximity to political power and governing bodies. When we’re talking about the weaponization, I can’t just talk about “an other” that has weaponized it. We also have to talk about how freely we have allowed it to happen.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Amen.
NEICHELLE GUIDRY:
And not even wage an anti weaponization.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Yeah. We’ve been talking about evangelicalism broadly. I wanna bring some specifics into the conversation because we’re not ever just talking about people who go to church every Sunday or Bible study every Wednesday. We’re talking about an entire culture that even for people who do not identify, self-identify as religious or as faith-based, are still subject to. So, you know, one of the things I went down a whole a DHD rabbit hole on was the seven Mountains mandate and this conservative Christian movement to assume a level of Christian dominance and influence. Right?
NEICHELLE GUIDRY:
Yeah.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Over seven aspects of society. It’s family, religion, education, media, arts and entertainment, business and government. So this is, I mean, it’s, it’s happening all around us. It’s been happening for decades. And it is cultural, not just religious Right. The way the contemporary Christian music has been popularized in place of gospel tradition that was not only about speaking the good news, but was about radically identifying the material conditions of Black people
NEICHELLE GUIDRY:
Yes.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
And helping us see a way out of it. Right? Not just in the future, but right now. Yes. And so that far right ecosystem that is being built through culture, through podcasts, through government, through politics, through, you know, seemingly innocent trad-wife trends online, it is constant. How do we guard ourselves, our own faith practices, the faith communities that we’re a part of against and alt-right funneling that not only is happening right under our noses, but that we can easily be tricked by because it all feels so innocent?
NEICHELLE GUIDRY:
Yeah. It’s, it’s, it’s actually quite fascinating and also kind of scary.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Real terrifying. ’cause it’s so calculated.
NEICHELLE GUIDRY:
It’s so calculated. You know, and I, as you were talking, Brittany, as there was a part of my sanctified imagination that was transported back to my upbringing, and one of the things that I remember about being in the Black church, I remember that there was obviously a certain aesthetic, right. And aesthetic to the preaching a style to, to the, to the ado way we adorn and the way we dress ourselves a sound to the music.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Mm-hmm.
NEICHELLE GUIDRY:
And all of this has been co-opted, right?
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Mm-hmm.
NEICHELLE GUIDRY:The Black aesthetic, the Black sound, all of this. And it has permeated Christian culture. Right. And white folks use that to their advantage ’cause And do I think that they are very strategic about how they position themselves in proximity to Blackness in order to gain validation in Black spaces and communities. But one thing that you cannot imitate is Black substance.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Come on, come on.
NEICHELLE GUIDRY:
Black spirit. Yeah. Right. Yeah. There’s a certain ancestral reaction, right. Visceral sort of feeling that we feel when we have come into contact with spirit and substance that comes from the lineage. Right. And I think that there’s something to be said about, yes, you might be able to hoop and holler at the end of your sermon, but if I can’t feel it. If there’s not an ancestral uprising Yeah. From my gut, then all you’ve done is mimic. Right?
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Mm.
NEICHELLE GUIDRY:
But there’s a power that can’t be replicated and I need us to return to that power, and I need us to require it. Yeah. I will say, I know that there’s something really to be said about being visible, right? Being an accessible sort of alternative to this alt-right. Evangelical uprising. Yeah. But I think there’s also something to be said for the very Black tradition of hush harbors and underground gatherings
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
mm-hmm
NEICHELLE GUIDRY:
The origins of the Black church. And I would recommend to your readers, people who really wanna read up on this, this book called The Invisible Institution by Dr. Albert J. Raboteau. It it’s the origin story of the Black church being founded and being born not in these powerful, invisible sort of locations, but in the pushable
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
mm-hmm
NEICHELLE GUIDRY:
Yeah. Of very hidden settings. They called it the invisible institution because they had to be held in secret.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Mm-hmm
NEICHELLE GUIDRY:
They had to be held in quiet. MYou know, Black folks gaining spiritual power is just, is is a portal. It is a millisecond, a half a step away from Black folks gaining autonomy, authority, and agency. Right? That’s right. And so when you really think about how, how powerful our religion can be, I wanna call us back to each other’s homes and have prayer meetings.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Mm-hmm
NEICHELLE GUIDRY: Everything doesn’t have to be online. Everything don’t have to be made into an Instagram reel. Your sermon don’t have to have, you know, your snippet moment. In fact, we can come together in the most offline underground ways. Regain our spiritual power, tap back into our, our ancestral spiritual inheritance so that we can be empowered to live it out in the world.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
I think that’s so essential, not only to our rootedness as a community like Intra-personally Right. With one another, but when I’m also thinking interpersonally in aspiring toward a multiracial democracy, that means we’re also aspiring toward a multifaith democracy. Right. People who choose not to be people of faith, people of other faiths.
NEICHELLE GUIDRY:
Yes.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism. So many other spaces that people occupy to find meaning and answers for themselves are all valid and deserve not to be weaponized against them. And yet all of these faith practices are continuously called in into politics. How do you see some of those more private ways of communing, of worshiping, of fellowshipping helping us to call us into reconciliation with one another even as we worship in different ways and call God by different names?
NEICHELLE GUIDRY:
The first place my mind goes is to when I lived in Jerusalem and I was in Jerusalem to study kabbalah, and every morning I had proximity to Al-Aqsa, to where every morning I heard the call to prayer. And when I heard the call to prayer, eventually it became my practice to get up to, to pray. And I felt like I was establishing this sort of communion Right. With my, with my Muslim brothers and sisters. And so eventually I got the courage up to actually go to the mosque. And I had to, you know, dress very conservatively. I had to have someone go with me to respect the space. But I remember when I got up there, I remember all the policing, the IDF. And I remember the welcome and how that participating in prayer at the mosque was a portal to me being invited into sharing meals with a Muslim family.
NEICHELLE GUIDRY:
It was the first time I was invited into the West Bank to, so navigating the checkpoints and really building solidarity and empathy for the Palestinian community there and seeing, and, and learning about Jerusalem from that very distinct lens, which was not the lens that I had when I got there.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Mm-hmm.
NEICHELLE GUIDRY:
So all of this to say, I, I am interested in us having reconciliation with folks who do have a shared interest in our humanity. And this is just where I’m at right now, Brittany, because of, I mean, I I am not above the volatility of this moment,
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Talk about it.
NEICHELLE GUIDRY:
I am not interested in reconciling with someone who is, who’s comfortable seeing people who look like me constantly and consistently dehumanized. But I’m interested in reconciliation with communities where we are, we’re struggling together.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Yeah.
NEICHELLE GUIDRY:
We are trying to make beautiful lives out of ashes together. While we are, we are interested in fighting together, building together, loving and living together. And I do think that our religious values and our traditions have the power to do that.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Yeah. I agree. Before I let you go, you know, on the precipice of a new year, I’m just wondering what messages you’re carrying into the year for yourself that you might offer to the rest of us to meditate on.
NEICHELLE GUIDRY:
Oh yeah. So what’s beautiful and ironic around this year is that in addition to the political realities that are forthcoming, I’m also turning 40.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Welcome, welcome, <laugh>. It’s very free. <laugh>,
NEICHELLE GUIDRY:
You know, and I feel that coming already. I feel like the last time I felt this sort of like newness and empowerment in my body was when I was turning 30. And that, and this has been a very definitive era in my life. And so as we’re turning into 2025, I, as I’m holding all of these realities in tandem with each other, I’ll share with you what I received from my mentor. She’s the former Dean of Chapel at Spelman. She’s my direct predecessor. We were talking about the inauguration and the administration that’s coming in. And she said, “but don’t forget that God is.” She said, there’s always another reality at work. And it might not be the one you see, and it might not be the one that you can, that you can track, but if you tap in, you gonna feel it. And if you ask for the eyes to see it, you going see it.
NEICHELLE GUIDRY:
And so for me, that just means to a, that the best is still yet to come. That there may be be this dominant narrative that’s being written, but the dominant narrative is never the only narrative. You know, we know, we know the power of the single story. And so we know that there’s always multiple stories and we get to pick which one is going to be our dominant. And I choose the God story, the grace story, the story of our power, the story of our freedom, the story of our agency, autonomy, authority, the story of our togetherness, our unity. And that’s the story I’m willing to put my weight behind. That’s it. That is it.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
I love it. And I love you. I’m so grateful for your continued wisdom and your leadership of all of us. Whether you know we are paying attention or not, we definitely are. So thanks for taking us to church.
NEICHELLE GUIDRY:
Thank you for inviting me into your space. I love you. I admire you. I keep you in my prayers.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
Whether you are a person of faith or choose not to be, now is the time for us to figure out how to reconcile with the folks who wanna get free just like us, do it from a place of humility and respect and go get free together.
BRITTANY PACKNETT CUNNINGHAM:
That’s it for today, but never, ever for tomorrow. Undistracted is a production of the Meteor and our friends at Wonder Media Network. Our producers are Vanessa Handy, Brittany Martinez, and Aaliyah Yates. Our editors are Grace Lynch and Maddie Foley. Thanks also to Natalia Ramirez and Sara Culley. Our executive producers at The Meteor are Cindi Leive and myself. And our executive producer at Wonder Media Network is Jenny Kaplan. You can follow me on all social media @mspackyetti on all social media. And our incredible team @TheMeteor. Subscribe to Undistracted and don’t forget y’all, rate and review us y’all on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Thanks for listening, thanks for being, and thanks for doing. I’m Brittany Packnett Cunningham. Let’s go get free.