America Who Hurt You - Episode 3
LC 00:24
I’ve internalized anti blackness and white blackness and white supremacy, so my consciousness has to be raised in terms of those things, so that I don’t perpetuate anti blackness and white supremacy. My consciousness, to me, has to be raised about my transness so I could even like, accept and love myself, and I do today.
Sarah Jones 00:49
Hi everybody, welcome to America. Who hurt you the pod where we talk in many voices about politics our trauma and how we can heal them both. I’m your host. Sarah Jones, and as usual, I’m here with a few co hosts. Rashid
Rashid 01:06
Peace, fam, what’s good?
Sarah Jones 01:07
Nareda,
Nereida 01:08
Hi everybody.
Sarah Jones 01:09
Lorraine,
Lorraine 01:11
Hello, there
Sarah Jones 01:12
and Bella.
Bella 01:13
OMG, hi.
Sarah Jones 01:14
Okay, you know by now, those characters are from my one person shows and my movie sell by date, and they may say hi to our guests–
Bella 01:25
This week it’s Laverne Cox!
Sarah Jones 01:27
Bella!
Bella 01:27
Sorry, I just couldn’t hold it in.
Rashid 01:29
Oh, yeah. I used to watch this black Laverne Cox. That’s a fire guest right there.
Bella 01:34
Yeah. She’s not just a great actress. She is an amazing trans rights activist who like, wait, Nereida, are you okay?
Nereida 01:44
Yeah, I sorry. I’m a big fan too. I just, I can’t believe I’m saying this. But, I mean, of course, you all know I support everything LGBTQ, but my sister just told me Mi sobrina, my niece. I mean, not my niece, my sister’s kid, they just came out to her as non binary. And I don’t know, I don’t know how I feel.
Rashid 02:09
Oh, aight. That’s a lot. But I mean, also, that’s just how kids be these days. You feel me like they be changing their pronouns with the weather these days.
Nereida 02:18
Ew, Rashid. That’s not what I’m saying. I would never tell them they’re just going through a phase or something like that. What I’m saying is I don’t know how to support my sister and my– her kid.
Bella 02:31
Nereida if it helps. I actually just learned in my alternative Spanish class, just like sobrino for nephew or sobrina for niece, you can say sobrinae. It’s gender neutral, and it rhymes with slay.
Lorraine 02:47
Is this the niece named [Bleep] Good for her, If says she’s not– what is that?
Bella 02:53
Lorraine, you are dead-naming them!
Lorraine 02:56
Dead? [Bleep]’s not dead. Really, Bella, after all the curse words, every week on this show, you use the bleeper on me.
Sarah Jones 03:05
Wait, where did you get that bleeper thing Bella?
Bella 03:07
Yeah, I knew you all wouldn’t be able to handle this conversation, so I got proactive.
Sarah Jones 03:13
Oh god, okay. Look, I know we all have some learning to do around the right words and where we even are in this conversation. But I do think Lorraine is trying to be supportive of Nereida’s sobrine.
Nereida 03:26
I know everybody means, well, I just, what happens now? How will they come out at school? Are they going to transition when? I mean, I just, I don’t know if they’re ready to make these kinds of decisions.
Sarah Jones 03:39
A lot of people feel the same way as you nareda, and there is so much misinformation out there, intentionally trying to scare all of us also, unfortunately, a lot of the time, it’s working. As of this spring, over half of the United States has passed dangerous anti trans bills, and whatever people feel personally, these bills are robbing 1000s of trans people and their loved ones of basic human rights, health and safety. So that’s why I’m so grateful we get to talk to Laverne Cox today. She’s been a trans rights activist for years. She coined the hashtag trans is beautiful. She portrayed the popular character Sophia on Orange is the New Black, and she appeared on the cover of Time magazine in 2014 with the headline “the trans tipping point”. Since then, she’s continued to epitomize trans representation as an Emmy winning, multi hyphenate creative, including the producer on the groundbreaking documentary disclosure, which everyone should see. And not only is my sister Laverne, radiant and brilliant, seriously, get out your pen, your paper, whatever you need to take notes, but she also helped us laugh and shared practical ways to survive all the hate with our hearts still intact. Hi, gorgeous.
LC 05:06
I can’t hear you yet. Oh, Imma mouth it. Hi, gorgeous. I hear you now. Look so beautiful. I might I didn’t. I didn’t. I’ve been doing glam so much lately. I just couldn’t today, you know,
Sarah Jones 05:20
You look fresh, like you have a glow of like on me makeup today.
LC 05:24
Thank you for asking me to do this., by the way, I’m really excited.
Sarah Jones 05:28
I am so excited every conversation with you that I’ve ever had lights up all the parts of my brain and my heart at the same time. Plus being here with you, I’m reminded of how much you always connect all the dots, and that’s why this podcast exists, right? It’s America who hurt you is not silos. It’s there’s a big conversation, and I was thinking about trauma. You know, we both understand that there’s so much trauma underneath everything else, whatever conversations are happening, whether it’s about anti blackness, whether it’s about anti trans, you know, legislation, which we’re seeing. And the good news is that we can heal trauma, therefore we can heal our politics. We just have to do the work, right? So it does feel like you have been at the center of this conversation in such a powerful way. I remember seeing you on the cover of Time. You know, of course, falling in love with Sophia on Orange is a new black. And for so many people, that was maybe their entry point for a conversation about trans folks more broadly.
LC 06:35
Oh, my goodness, it’s been 10 years since the Time magazine cover too, which is really interesting and intense, what I’m what I’m aware of thinking about the last 10 years, and trans representation, when people come forward and there’s more visibility for a formally more marginalized group, there’s always backlash, right like historically, we’ve seen backlash to the civil rights movement, To the women’s movement in the 1960s and 70s, and the backlash to trans visibility has been really intense and really well organized and really well funded. So I was I was at the glad awards just a few days ago, and I was talking to my friend Rich, who’s been working on for a really long time, and he was saying, he doesn’t mind me saying how difficult it’s been doing this work, and he cries more now, and he’s just, he was, he was like, you know, we were winning for a long time, and we and we’re not right now. And I was like, you know, I was like, they, they weren’t ready for us 10 years ago, in 2014 when I was in the cover of Time Magazine, they didn’t have all their talking points. I mean, it has, like, it’s actually a lot of the same talking points, but they didn’t have the strategy, and they didn’t have the propaganda.
Sarah Jones 07:47
They’re more organized now. But then to also understand the dehumanization that’s at play and how tricky it can feel. They’re like, well, but Laverne is amazing. She’s been nominated for all the Emmys she produced disclosure, so everything’s fine and it’s fixed. And I think in this moment, as we approach this election, things could not be less fine and could not need more fixing. We have 550 anti trans bills. These folks are busy trying to erase trans folks.
LC 08:18
I just I think it’s important in terms of trans representation of people sort of understand the trajectory in the wake of marriage equality the right way. They were like, Okay, how do we scapegoat LGBTQ people? Will use trans folks and 2016 HB two in North Carolina, that famous bathroom bill that sort of caused outrage all over the country. It was not the first bathroom bill, but historically, we had been defeating bathroom bills at the state legislature, and we were able to eventually defeat HB two so organizations like Alliance within freedom Heritage Foundation, they have so much money right, and they fund a lot of politicians and state legislatures. And so they actually, really, they went and did focus groups to see what issues around trans people would work? And they determined that trans people in sports would be that issue. And so we began to see trans bills popping up in state legislatures all over the place. And then when people who don’t know a lot about trans folks, they’re like, well, that doesn’t that seems like, yeah, right, that’s not fair. We shouldn’t have that’s not fair, and we shouldn’t have trans girls competing against non trans girls, and yeah, that should be banned. And that was a way, ultimately, to take the attention when I when I came onto the scene, and when a lot of trans people began to become visible, we began to insist on our humanity, and like conversations about our bodies, surgery, transition, we’re dehumanizing, objectifying. And what the sports conversation did was turn the attention back to our body, right? Turn the attention back to like, you know, people are talking about puberty, (hormones,) hormones, what are the levels?
Sarah Jones 09:51
And people who have no clue, by the way, and also do not care about women’s sports. Don’t even care about children.
LC 09:58
Definitely don’t care about women’s sport. That was the gateway. Then you saw, I think, was the governor West Virginia. West Virginia who was on MSNBC talking to Stephanie rule. He had just signed an anti trans sports bill into law, and he was like, you know, we all want people taking advantage and being think we want things to be fair in girls sports and West Virginia and Stephanie rules like, Do you have any examples of anyone you know harmed by this or being harmed or taking advantage of the system. And he was like, Well, no, like, do you know of any trans athletes in west virginia? No
Sarah Jones 10:27
Ugh, just straw man or straw trans folk, if you will.
LC 10:31
Or even in half the nation now has sports bands in place, and a lot of these states don’t have even have documentation of any trans athletes in the state. In Kentucky, Fisher Wells, who I’ve spoken about before, she started her, you know, field hockey team at her school, and when she was in middle school, they literally didn’t have enough girls to play on the team she organized, got all the girls to play, they practiced, and right before their first game, she was told she couldn’t play because she’s trans. She testified before the state legislature, and they banned girls sports and can take trans girls. She’s the only trans athlete that we knew of in that state. And I also like to remind people that regulations have been in place from the International Olympic Committee since 2001 2002 for trans people be able to compete in sports at the Olympics. And in that over 20 years, we’ve had one trans Olympian, and she was in weightlifting from Australia, and then she even, really, she, like, made it that didn’t she failed to qualify.
Sarah Jones 11:28
She failed to dominate everyone, right? Like, that’s the myth–
LC 11:32
— That trans women are dominating sports. Just isn’t true. There’s probably less than 100 trans women athletes in the country, children and adults. I think there’s just not a lot of that. And so when we do win, those stories are all over Fox News, if you do the research for my podcast, I was I had a conversation with Chase Strangio about this. And for the difference too, is that for years, Fox News and all the right wing media has been having conversations about trans women in sports and fear mongering around it for like a good five, six years, and mainstream media like not, it’s a whole other world. So the silo media ecosystems allow them to be able to just say the lie, say the propaganda, over and over and over again, and fear monger then now also have to say, now banned gender affirming care for young people. So the gateway becomes sports, then children, and it’s the same playbook, Anita Bryant playbook from the 70s. And here we are, like, we have to protect the children. We have to protect girls sports and trans people, because too now there’s a strategy, let’s dehumanize let’s not actually have any trans people in the room to talk about trans issues, and let’s just say the lie over and over and over again. And there’s no counter to that in the media ecosystem that is Fox News, social media and all that, those silos so even our algorithms. So it’s not just with trans- it’s not just with trans issues. It becomes really kind of impossible because of the nature of media and how we’re just fed our own confirmation bias over and over and over again because of algorithms, because people aren’t really watching, you know, counter narrative, and
Sarah Jones 13:07
there are, or they don’t exist, or they’re not accessible, right? Exactly. So try ban Tik Tok, if they can get rid of that conversation. I
LC 13:15
mean that that is really a great example of we can control the narrative, so let’s ban it.
Sarah Jones 13:23
Totally, and can I actually, Laverne, because you were hitting on so many
LC 13:26
Go, I just want to give us that sense of the history of how we ended up here.
Sarah Jones 13:32
Totally. And I think because of your depth and breadth of knowledge and understanding of all of this, and the episode, if people haven’t heard it, the episode on the Laverne Cox show, which is a dope podcast, by the way, with Chase Strangio and Ms peppermint, two amazing voices. The conversation around this, which I believe y’all had, you know, last year, right? When there were, quote, unquote, only 330 bills, right? They’re just exponentially growing this mythology. It’s mythology. And the thing that you point out that helps me so much, it’s like they’ve done it. They do this with abortion. They do it with, you know, they do it with critical race theory, with wokeness, with black folk. You know, I look at the playbook and you mentioned Anita Bryant and Laverne. You know, all my little friends may come out during this pod, but I
Lorraine 14:19
Laverne, it’s me Lorraine, I just want to say thank you for doing everything you’re doing, because at my age, there was never a cup just you had to whisper even the word gay. It wasn’t, you know, possible. And this Anita Bryant, what you’re talking about. They did the same thing with gay people in my day that they’re doing today, with the trans people. They had diagnoses that you know there’s something wrong with you, or you, what you do is illegal, or you’re a criminal. They did the same thing. And so for young people now, they should know, to them, it’s normal. Everybody has, you know, is gay, or they have the gay or they’re queer, or whatever, all the language your kids use, but they need to understand they’re doing the same thing now that they did then.
LC 15:02
And it’s, it’s working. It’s working now because of, I mean, you know, from a distance, you know, if you if this were a movie, it would be this really great, brilliant like, oh my, Roger Ailes, let’s get our own sort of propaganda machine that is Fox News, and then that grows into a whole sort of propaganda machine. And that’s just why we see Republican politicians. Democratic politicians lie too, but Republican politicians really just lies, (spectacular lies) because that lie is what’s going to be played on Fox News. So they don’t have and they know that all of them will clip the lie, and so they don’t actually have to be accountable.
Sarah Jones 15:41
And I feel like propaganda is at the heart of so much of what’s traumatizing us, both at the micro and the macro, right? Waking up to God help us. The New York Times, with this have anti trans bias, and they’re supposed to be our allies, right? So I want to bring that back in, actually, the intersection, you know, the the allyship piece. I’m a cis woman. I, you know, feel dysregulated listening to the lies, knowing that what’s at the core of this, really, as I said, it’s not about them, caring about children, mainstream sports, right? Pee Wee football that starts at age five or whatever. More than 3 million children a year, ages 14 and younger, get hurt annually playing sports ends up in the emergency room, treated for, you know, various injuries. Where’s the outrage over that danger to children? Right? But no, no, no, we’re not allowed to let actual, you know, children’s health be the guiding principle in all of this. Instead, we listen to politicians who aren’t doctors. It’s very similar to the abortion issue, right? Like, I just see all these connections. It’s very similar to I was listening to you and chase and peppermint talk about how when they take away gender affirming care, families may have to leave the state they’re in just so that their children can live or that they can And here’s the up thing, Laverne, I have people in my life, and I know you do too, and you’re so great about this, we have to meet folks where they are. And these talking points, right, they trickle from the far right into the mainstream. Like I said, The New York Times with its anti trans, you know, agenda, I’m like, Girl, but when they’re peddling that, it’s very easy for well meaning people who are trying to be informed. They think they’re liberal and progressive on every other issue, but then they’re like, Oh, but I really am scared that my, you know, my kids and all their peers are suddenly, you know, more like non binary, or more maybe they are trans, or I’m scared, and it’s like, this is the kind of fear mongering. How do we meet people where they are and help them see that actually, this isn’t about your kids being in danger. Like, first of all, it’s not really about that, because we know that when doctors are allowed to do what doctors do, just like with abortion care or anything else,
LC 17:57
Politicians shouldn’t be involved.
Sarah Jones 17:58
Politicians, it’s none of they damn business. They shouldn’t be involved in any of these. It’s all bodily autonomy stuff, whether we’re talking about anti trans bills or abortion bills or, you know, we were talking about, like I said, gender affirming care. I need gender affirming care. I’m sis, right? And without my birth control pills. Girl
LC 18:17
Yeo thingd I want to say about that in an IDA, is it? Iowa, I think, was the first state to ban gender affirming care for young people. They actually the attorneys who wanted to ban gender affirming care for trans kids literally argued that puberty blockers are unsafe for trans kids, but it’s fine for non trans kids, and puberty blockers have existed since the 1980s and were used to treat and still are used to treat precocious puberty. And young people, when they were they may go through puberty too young, and that causes different issues. And the attorneys opposing gender affirming care for trans people literally said it’s fine for non trans kids, but it’s not fine the same medication. So it doesn’t the arguments don’t actually make any sense. But what in terms of meeting people where they are? I think that for me, it’s always about loving individuals and being critical of systems, institutions and ideologies, right? So it’s a mindset. So I think sometimes like even language, like saying instead of calling someone racist or transphobic, saying that this language is consistent with the history of transphobia, because the root of transphobia is denying that trans people are really who we are. So when you misgender someone who’s trans, it’s transphobic because it’s consistent with history that denies the womanhood of trans women, and it delegitimizes us and then, like, puts us in harm. It actually, you know, we can lead to violence, and it’s all kinds of disenfranchisement against, you know, trans folks. So I think that is more helpful. And I think it makes a difference when you get to know an individual and love them, as opposed to, like, you know, a lot of people don’t know somebody trans. We’re less than 1% of the population. So there is what they’re getting in the media over and over and over again. So there’s meeting people where they are individually is different than dealing with structures and institutions. And I think that, like, what Republicans have always understood is that, like, politics is downstream of culture. And so what has happened with the cultural conversation being hijacked, right but particularly with trans folks. And when people say, I think this is up for debate, I can’t tell you how many pundits you know, political pundits and podcast hosts and people who aren’t trans don’t have no trans people in their lives. It said, you know, I think the trans people in sports thing is something we can debate. I think gender affirming care for young people is something we can debate, not debating with trans people, not debating with the actual doctors who treat trans people, just debating it with like, like, we don’t
Sarah Jones 20:51
play Cards Against Humanity. Let’s just
LC 20:55
debating my friend and then that, even that like, that, that framing, like, what, what? What the right wing has done so well, not only with trans issues, but with like immigration, with everything, is that they frame everything in their conservative, you know, skewed terms. And then you know, people who are on the left or the Democratic Party liberals in general are reacting instead of setting the agenda, instead of setting the cultural conversation, and so I refuse to like, you know, debate my humanity and like, have conversations on the terms of my oppressor. I refuse to like, concede that it’s up for conversation whether trans young people should have access to gender affirming care, because I’m not a doctor and you’re not a doctor. And the American Academy for pediatrics, the American Medical Association, The Endocrine Society, all say that gender affirming care works. Statistically. There are different studies say different things. One state has less than 1% of trans people regret their transition. Another say says less than 4%
Sarah Jones 21:57
honey, more people regret their nose jobs. More people know that there needs, their dreams. Yes, yeah. People regret their
Rashid 22:04
Botox. And
Sarah Jones 22:06
I don’t want to be too flippant about this, like, I know if you’re black, if you’re immigrant, like, these are the same folks attacking all of us. And if we can start to see it that way, right, that, like, the same person who’s writing the Rick DeSantis is eager to get rid of black folks, as he is to get rid
LC 22:23
of is that his name now, Rick DeSantis, Ron just said, oh,
Sarah Jones 22:27
you know what? I just put Rick on it because I think it adds to the to the icky. Sorry. And if your name is Rick, it gives me the egg. And so, yes, it’s Ron, I’m sorry, but we gonna keep this in here, because Ron, that’s how much I both don’t think about you, and also you
Lorraine 22:39
do give me the egg with the R.
Sarah Jones 22:56
Well, let me ask you this though, girl, because this is the thing that’s so tricky for me. You know, like you said, you outlined the trajectory of, like, from 2014 and you being this kind of, you know, symbol and other folks, but like, this idea that we fixed it, it’s fine, right? It for public purposes. Or, like, we’re seeing some, you know, we’re seeing images, you know, we’ve overcome, right? But the larger fact that laws that are actively discriminating against all of us, but using, for example, trans folks and anti trans bills as kind of they are the canary in the call. Like visibility.
LC 23:32
I mean, there’s there’s visibility and representation, and then there’s actual policy and structural change, right? And so the structural change that’s that’s eluding us on many different areas, right? So, and that requires, and if the structural change is really going to really require a I think the masses of people, right? I think it would require masses of citizens coming together, or having caught their consciousness raised right so that we’re able to acknowledge the ways in which we’ve internalized white supremacy, anti blackness, misogyny, transphobia, and come to critical consciousness around all these issues. Come to critical consciousness around how the how all these issues are used by people in power to subjugate us and divide and conquer, and divide and conquer and then for us to come together and rise up? Yes, exactly problematic, because I think it is. We don’t have the same structures on the left, and I’ve had a lot of conversations about this is that we are way more heterodox. We don’t have the same, you know, the right it’s more easy to organize because they’re like,
24:38
Just point me and shoot me. Literally, a lot more,
LC 24:41
you know, homogeneous in terms of beliefs and demographics, etc. So it’s like, but we don’t have like for just trans rights. We need a Super PAC. We need, that’s what politicians respond to as money. We need, like an LGBTQ super PAC that funds like, you know, getting pro LGBTQ plus legislation passed, unfortunately, until we can overturn Citizens United and get money out of politics. That’s the unfortunately, that’s the corrupt system that we’re dealing with. It’s so much.
Nereida 25:12
But actually, I wanted to let my friend nareda Jump in. I know she’s a huge fan. Hi, Laverne. First of all, you’re looking amazing, Mama, but also I really appreciate everything you’re saying, because, like, just, oh my God, when you put it like that, we all have these internalized messages, right? Like as immigrants, you know the way they want you to be afraid, or they say you’re a threat that you don’t belong, right? And then I hear you talking about these families having to leave the state, because basically the laws are chasing them out, right? And I’m like, that’s the same, like, you might as well be talking about us. So just thank you for, you know, making the connections. Because, okay, I’ll just say I was feeling my own fears. I don’t have to go into the details or anything, but that thing you said about once you get to know individuals and and love them, you know, then, then, instead of being afraid, you really, you want to stand with them, you know, like with trans people and the whole LGBT community. It’s like you all are always reminding us that, you know, cis people, straight people, whatever, being allies. That’s the only way that you’re gonna get power, and that’s where we all will get more power. So I just, I want you to know I’m here for the super back, but also, you know, like you said, maybe that’s why they want to divide us and keep us afraid of each other. It’s, I
LC 26:29
mean, it’s part of the project with anti trans and LGBTQ. You know, propaganda is to dehumanize us, right? And I think that, I think we see that conversation happening with immigration, I think we see that conversation happening with some of the wars that are happening where people are systematically dehumanized. Yes,
Sarah Jones 26:48
they dehumanize us. They dehumanize us, right? We’re bad hombres or whatever.
LC 26:52
We don’t see them as human anymore, and then we can take away their rights. And so I think the piece is, I think a lot of times people with the trans people in sports. Thing like, the most sympathetic way of approaching that is that people coming at it like, I think we should have fairness. People like, I think things should be fair, and they want to be fair, and they’re like, and they also with trans kids in gender affirming care. They’re like, well, you know, kids don’t know and they don’t know this and they don’t know that. And so people have often come at this with the best of intentions, but they don’t understand that there’s things that are missing from their analogy because they’re intentionally being left out. Those things are intentionally being left out in the conversation. And so I think that, like, again, all it’s about like if it’s all a deflection, it’s all a distraction at the end of the day, like, can we see each other as human and then understand, I think so much of it is about having a structural analysis, yes, but I think the trauma piece, I’d love to talk more about that, because it really, I mean, these Things are all connected. And the trauma piece, I think, when we, if we’re able to say to ourselves that we might be traumatized by something, or in and or in a different way, just maybe talking about it is in terms of by flight, or we all are hardwired as human beings when we, you know, if we’re in the woods and we see a bear, we’re hardwired biologically to, you know, release cortisol, although as women, girl,
Sarah Jones 28:26
you know, as women, if we see a bear, is still better than seeing a cis man.
LC 28:29
I saw that. I saw that study. That was anyway, but we’re hardwired to release adrenaline and cortisol, to fight, flee or freeze when we see a bear, but we are hardwired for survival, right? And even stress, like, you know, different stressors can cause us to go into that, you know, survival response and but if we’re constantly releasing the adrenaline and cortisol, because when we come home at night, the bear is always there. When we walk down the street, the bear is there if we’re a person of color or transfer,
Sarah Jones 29:01
or the fox– news– as the case may be, or the
LC 29:04
if there’s always a bear and we’re always releasing adrenaline, cortisol, what is adaptive becomes maladaptive. So a lot of us are walking around because of school shootings, because of war, because of discrimination, like if you if we look at the work on ACEs, adverse childhood experiences, Dr Nadine Burke Harris calls it exposure to adversity, but it’s really just that high zone survival response, what it’s we’re constantly releasing adrenaline and cortisol that depletes our nervous system. And can
Sarah Jones 29:36
I just say so those just that idea, right? I think it globalizes to our politics like you’re saying you don’t have to come from a horrible story of trauma to be living in the larger collective trauma that is America, right? And then it does show in these
LC 29:52
bills, different people experience collective trauma differently, right? It doesn’t affect everyone the same way because of our own historical experiences of trauma. So what may be more traumatizing to me is maybe less traumatizing to you, but it has an effect on the society at large. It has an effect on policy, how we make policy, whether we, you know, start a war or, you know, little stuff like that, right? I mean, so much of our there’s different kinds of education, but I think that, like having our consciousness raised around I’ve been thinking a lot about, like, consciousness raising sessions that, like, you know, the second wave feminists would do in the 60s and 70s, when, you know, with groups of women, we get together and, like, talk about, like patriarchy and like gender roles, and like how those things were oppressive. And like, the consciousness was raised because they didn’t even know how indoctrinated they were into a way of thinking about themselves until there was a critical intervention. And so so many of us have been indoctrinated into this normativity, heteronormativity, patriarchy, white supremacy, without knowing it. All of us as a black person, we’ve talked about this before. I’ve internalized anti blackness and white blackness and white supremacy, so my consciousness has to be raised in terms of those things, so that I don’t perpetuate anti blackness and white supremacy. My consciousness, to me, has to be raised about my transness so I could even like, accept and love myself, and I do today. So all of us have to have our consciousness raised because all of us are indoctrinated in what Bell has called imperialist, white supremacist capitalist patriarchy. I add to that cis normative, heteronormative, imperialist, white supremacist capitalist patriarchy. So what all those words and all this jargon kind of sounds big, but it’s just like there is a there is a system that says you should think this way, that these people are more valuable than these people, and we’ve all grown up in that system, and no one is more valuable because of the colors of scanning their gender expression or their orientation or their immigration status. We’re all human beings. And so the work has to be to understand how the systems work, how they are perpetuated, and then how I can begin to unlearn that in myself and then live that way, live that way, and love that way. And then maybe we can begin to organize that way. Because I think the collective piece is like, how do we begin to, like, start a national, international conversation that is a trauma informed approach, yes,
Sarah Jones 32:18
and trauma informed just meaning, like, instead of saying what’s wrong with them or what’s wrong with me, it’s like, no, what happened? Right? What happened to me? What happened to them? It’s it acknowledges there’s this bigger picture, like how we’re all impacted by these larger systems, like even around our bodies, it’s by
LC 32:35
it’s biological. It’s really biological. And so we’re all in this survival risk. If we’re in survival response, we’re not using our full capacity, we’re going to react without thinking and from that survival place, and then we’re going to lash out, we’re going to shoot somebody. We’re going to, I mean, we’re going to take away rights, we’re going to do all these things because we’re afraid, and so we have to collectively be able to understand, like, Come basically widen our resilience zone,
Sarah Jones 33:02
yeah, and that’s the hard part, right? Like, I mean, easier said than done, but it’s like, how do you work to widen your own resilience zone?
LC 33:10
There’s an app called I chill that lists the six components of the community resiliency model that was developed by the trauma Research Institute, and it’s really all about sort of tracking what’s going on in your body and your nervous system, and regulating your nervous system yourself so that, once you can track there are specific tools that you can do within your body to, like, slow your for me, it’s about slowing myself down, finding out what’s going on in my body, where, if there’s anxiety, if there’s something like getting specific about where that is in my body. And then there’s one of the six tools that shift and stay. Is one of my favorites. It’s like, if it’s I’m feeling anxious, it’s usually in my stomach. And is there a place in my body where it’s neutral or positive, right and right now it’s my ankle. So I can, like, take all my attention and focus that attention on my ankle where it’s neutral or positive, and eventually, as I as I focus my energy and attention on my ankle that’s neutral or positive, that anxiety that I’m feeling in my stomach might not completely go away, but it’ll dissipate. It’ll dissipate a little bit. What we focus on becomes the thing that that drives us. Yeah, and so can we shift and stay? Can we take our attention elsewhere in our bodies, in our nervous systems, where something is neutral or positive, it’s about both and both, being in the space of both. And that’s how we one of the ways in which we build trauma resilience in our nervous systems, and then we can begin to think globally.
Sarah Jones 34:35
Okay, so I was already obsessed, but now, like there’s some next level obsession happening because, as you were talking about this body and embodiment piece and tracking what’s happening in our body, we are also simultaneously, like you said, both and tracking what’s happening in our body politic, right? Like we get to track
Lorraine 34:52
and find
LC 34:53
we and we, there’s a there’s we have to be responsible to regulate our nervous system so we can co regulate as well, right, you know, in a relationship or in a friendship, we co regulate when we have we’re co regulation. Girl, you just hold my
Sarah Jones 35:07
breath down like when you were, like, I just had my stomach. I was against my stomach. Like that was so helpful.
LC 35:11
We CO we can we co regulate in an interaction with each other and like, you know, you and I are both highly sensitive people, so we can co regulate. And I think reality checking, what it because a thought, a thought, can shift our nervous systems, right? So it’s like, as we track as we use our tools and like, hopefully deepen and widen our resilience zone. It’s like for is this based in the material world, or is this based in historical trauma, when it’s hysterical, it’s historical, right? Is it based in that? Is it based in something I’ve learned that’s not accurate, a negative thought, a fearful thought, can shift my entire nervous system that it’s not real at all. It’s brilliant for actors, brilliant for us actors, but in real life, she’s not cute.
Sarah Jones 35:58
Face card denied! You know what? I love this, and also, you know, hopefully we can try to learn to co regulate as a country, right? And I’ll say this, when you were sharing about the like, I just thought it’s so simple. What are we believing? And, you know, to make a simple example that has really helped me, if we really care about kids, and if these folks really care about, you know, a country that making it great again, why are we killing it, right? We’re we’re worried about gender affirming care, but guns are fine, right? So to really ask ourselves, what are we believing? What are we falling for? What you’re talking about, let’s come home into our own bodies so that we can be present enough to know what we’re triggered by and then actually be able to do something about it out there, whether it’s voting or whatever it is we’re doing and making sure that we are in community with other people. So where can we send people to be in community with you as you’re figuring this stuff out?
LC 36:56
I I would suggest people. I mean, people can follow me on social media. You just look up Laverne Cox, and I’m on all the things. But like, I would encourage people to go to the Laverne Cox show and put in the Laverne Cox show and Jennifer Burton flyer, who’s my therapist, there’s two episodes where we talk specifically about going to depth about this work, this trauma, resilience work, it’s changed my life and how I approach and I’ve been in therapy for 24 years.
37:24
Yes girl, you and me both. We are here for changing our lives, and you are life changing. Miss Vern, I’m so grateful for you. I can’t wait for people to hear that.
LC 37:37
I’m so grateful to thank you for having me to be continued, To be continued.
Sarah Jones 37:53
Oh, so iconic, right? But Bella, I’m surprised you didn’t ask the question.
Lorraine 37:58
I know I was so shook, I couldn’t speak. I’m trying
Nereida 38:02
to be, like, compassionate with myself about it, but nareda, you totally said something. Do you feel better? I really do. I think I was mostly afraid of, like, the medical stuff. But once Laverne said that thing about how puberty blockers are somehow safe for everyone except trans kids. I was like, Oh, I see you. It’s just more fear mongering.
Lorraine 38:24
Yes, that’s right. Wait, Lorraine,
Sarah Jones 38:27
I have to be honest, I’m so surprised you’re like, way ahead of the curve. Yeah, I
Lorraine 38:31
thought you was old school, Lorraine. Well, that just feels like you’re calling me old. But I think it comes down to what Laverne said about trauma and fear clouding our judgment. You know, back in the Anita Bryant days, I believed the same Malarkey, what you would call homophobia, as everybody else, but once younger people, people I cared about, started coming out, I realized I wasn’t afraid of them. I was afraid their lives would be harder, and I wanted to protect them.
Sarah Jones 39:04
Wow, Lorraine, you are so much more evolved than I give you credit for.
Lorraine 39:09
Well, also when you’re more supportive, people of every gender are more likely to have families, so that way you still get your little grandchildren no matter how the parents identify. Yep, there
Sarah Jones 39:21
it is. Well, I think there’s a lot to think about and feel here, and that brings me to this week’s prompt. As always, if you’re able to do this with me, take a breath or two, put your hand on your heart, if you’re up for that, and see if you can remember a time when you realize some truth about yourself, maybe it was discovering your calling, or maybe suddenly realizing you had been trying to squeeze yourself into a box that you just didn’t fit, and you knew it in your bones so deeply, even if maybe no one else got it. Now I want you to imagine your loved ones, your community and even the laws around you, not only not understanding but actively attacking this truth about you. Try to imagine how that would impact you and your entire life. Now I want you to imagine the opposite, that this major self discovery was instead met with understanding, support, love, affirmation, even celebration. What would that look like? I have to admit, I just got emotional thinking about that difference.
All right, I’m looking forward to hearing what comes up for you if you try this and either way, whoever you are, wherever you are, whatever you feel. Thank you for being part of this conversation.
America who hurt you was created by Sarah Jones and sell by date LLC. Don’t forget to subscribe. Oh, and please rate and review. You can follow the podcast at Yes, I’m Sarah Jones on Instagram, Tiktok, all the places where you can keep up to date and share your prompt responses. America who hurt you is a collaboration of foment productions and the Meteor. Our host is me, Sarah Jones. Our producer is Kimberly Henry, with editorial support from Phil Serkis. Our executive producers are me and Cindy Levy. Our audio engineer is Sean Tao Lee. Our logo was designed by Bianca Alvarez, And Our music is by coma Media. You 400 I,