America Who Hurt You - Episode 2
Sarah Jones 00:10
Hi everybody, welcome to America who hurt you the pod where we talk in many voices about politics our trauma, and how we can heal them both. I’m your host, Sarah Jones. And as usual, I’ll be joined by a few co hosts, Rashid. Yo, what’s good, everybody, Nereida. Hola, mi gente. Lorraine. Hello out there and Bella. Hi guys. All right, they’re not exactly co-hosts, they’re more my characters who live in my head. Yeah, if you don’t know this about me already, I’ve performed these characters for years in my one person shows and in my film, Sell Buy Date. They are based on my real multiracial family and friend, and they may pop in and give their opinions, debate with each other or don’t be surprised if they show up during interviews with our guests. Now, today’s guest is the one and only W. Kamau Bell. I’m a longtime fan of his comedy that looks at race and so much more from his perspective as a black man in America. But this conversation brought up deep questions for me about whether black folks and the rest of us who have marginalized identities in this country owe America our loyalty.
Lorraine 01:24
What does that mean loyalty, of course, it’s our country. Listen, my family, your family came here fleeing persecution. Before most of you, your grandparents weren’t even born, and we came here with nothing. But we worked hard, and we became Americans just like everybody else. And that’s part of your family history too Sarah don’t forget.
Sarah Jones 01:49
Yes, but my other ancestors were enslaved here, Lorraine, and then oppressed for generations and treated as second class citizens right up to today.
Nereida01:59
Okay, but Sarah, I know what Lorraine is saying. I mean, like for people around the world, including our Latine cousins, they will give anything to be here. But that said, Lorraine, I got to disagree with you that you came here with nothing. I mean, I know it was hard, but you at least had your whiteness. I mean, it’s a lot more complicated for the rest of us.
Rashid02:18
Real talk. I mean, in some ways, as a black man in America, it don’t feel complicated at all. For me, it should feel like an abusive relationship. You feel me? Like I need to get me a restraining order against America or somethin’.
Sarah Jones 02:31
All right. Well, before we start calling lawyers, let’s see what Kamau has to say. It’s funny, I was saying before we started, or I guess we’ve already started, or I don’t know what his time? The opportunity to get to talk to people I admire in this context of America who hurt you. It’s like bliss and torture. Like it’s like, I love talking to you. Also, how the hell are we going to get through like the next week, much less? You know, there’s an election coming up in November. We’re recording this at a time when it’s still a nail biter.
WKB 03:13
I think that’s going to be what it is even the night before.
Sarah Jones 03:17
Many nights after is my fear, right? Like, America be doing it like that. We’re nothing if not dramatic, around, like the fate of our democracy.
WKB 03:27
Where we as a country we’re the trashy reality show person who like causes all the drama, and gets kicked off but sort of also provides the like interest and well, we can’t kick them all the way off the show, because they actually are an interesting addition to the show.
Sarah Jones 03:42
God help us, well, not God help us, Kamau help us.
WKB 03:47
Oh, God, same, same.
Sarah Jones 03:50
Same, Same. You remember, there was a time in hip hop where people were calling each other gods?
WKB 03:55
Yeah, yeah.
Sarah Jones 03:57
To wrap all of that back around, though you really are. I’m not going to deify you. But for people who are living under a rock
WKB 04:04
Or for, for most of the planet.
Sarah Jones 04:06
That’s fair. To me, you are one of the most important thinkers, helping progressive ideas reach mainstream people. That’s, that is God’s work, who whoever, whatever you want to call. And that’s not an easy task. And you know, some of the reasons you’re able to do that you were besides, you know, you’re a comedian, you’re an author, a filmmaker, director, producer, all of those things. And that doesn’t always translate to also being a you know, a thought leader. And in your case, we need you is what I’m saying? I’m not saying you have to go back to CNN and continue your Docu series that we all loved United Shades of America, which won five, five, five Emmy Awards. But you’ve also won a Peabody for your Docu series, we need to talk about Cosby, Chile I had to take anti nausea medication anyway. There’s that. But you are most proud of your Emmy award winning documentary short, 1,000% Me Growing Up Mixed. Woop, Woop. And I’m also very proud of you for that. Thank you. I’ll say this. I think I first fell in love with canals work through United Shades, but also Private School Negro is the comedy special that if you haven’t seen it, it will help you understand not only him, but me. You can find that on Netflix. Very importantly, just last year, he and his amazing wife, Melissa Hudson-Bell co-founded Who Knows Best, which is an Oakland based production company. So just doing good work everywhere. Here’s what I want to ask you because I like to ask people this question in general, normally, it would be like, Oh, how do you see yourself? You know, you’re an American? Do you, you know, feel like your hyphenated identity is important. You have one of the best answers to this question of anyone. It’s right in the title of another fave of yours. Another fave of mine of yours. The awkward thoughts of W. Kamau Bell, this is the title y’all the awkward thoughts of W. Kamau Bell tales of a six foot four African American heterosexual cisgender left leaning asthmatic black and proud, blurred mama’s boy, dad and stand up comedian. I read that kind of like a pharmaceutical, you know, like the Side effects may include.
WKB 06:32
Also side effects may include.
Sarah Jones 06:36
But these are not your side effects. Right? This is who you are. I feel like there’s a serious reason that you, you know, included all of that about yourself in that title.
WKB 06:52
Sure. Yeah, absolutely. So I think for me, it’s what I’ve been talking about this a lot, I’ve been starting to do stand up again, and sort of looking for themes of like, what am I talking about, and a lot of it is about, like, this point in my life of being sort of like my mom is 86. She’s still around, I have these three daughters who are like, and I sort of see myself firmly in the middle of America right now, like in the middle of like, this is it, I gotta like take care of this lady who took care of me and who passed me the the black baton, as I call it. I gotta, I gotta get ready to pass it to these kids. And the point I make is that when my mom passed it to me, it was way lighter than when she got it from her parents. But I’m afraid when I pass it to my daughters, it’s gonna be way heavier, right.
Sarah Jones 07:32
But that’s it, right? The multiplicity of this moment, you’re raising mixed kids, you know, and probably like in my family, it was like mixed and black, like politically black, like with the awareness that anti blackness kind of drives so much of the conversation that you don’t want to be that person who’s like, Oh, me who grew up nothing black over here, you kind of are trying to hold multiple identities. I guess when you said, I’m in the middle of America, you know, I’m positing that we’re in the middle of a lot of trauma, not to freak us out. But to you know, start like you don’t go to the doctor. Like, my leg isn’t really broken. You go like, Doc, please, like, help me fix this shit.
WKB 08:35
Yeah, I’ve been I’ve been looking at America for a long time that way. So yeah, like I did a podcast recently. And one of the things I said that was like the headline was like, no matter who the next president is America might be fucked. And that was the thing that people took out of it like, and some people thought I was like, both sides being like Trump and Biden are the same. I’m like, no, no, no, I’m just saying that no matter who wins the presidency, as we can see from what’s going on across college campuses across the country right now, like that has nothing to do with who the president is. It has to do with the political moment we’re in, as far as like, the protests and rallies the pro Palestine rallies on college campuses. That’s not they’re not doing that because of Biden or Trump or it’s about the political moment we’re in and about, like, how America’s not responding in a way that they want. And I understand so for me, yeah, I think that like, no matter what happens, we are entering, I’ll put it this way, when you go to see Rome, a lot of what you’re looking at is what used to be. Because it was like this used to be the center of the world, and then when you go and when you talk about the British Empire, the sun never sets on the British Empire, until it did.
Sarah Jones 09:24
Until it really really did. Yeah, the sun set and sat all over the British empire.
WKB 09:27
Yeah, Alexander the Great the stuff he ran, he don’t he don’t run no more. It is and his descendants are run no more. Maybe there’s a Gyro shop in Chicago that’s called called Alexander the Great Gyros.
Sarah Jones: 9:35
Not a Gyro shop. Also kudos to us for pronouncing it Gyro not Jiro which is what I grew up with. So at least we’re trying to.
WKB 9:47
In Chicago you can’t say Gyro unless you decide you don’t want to eat them anymore. You know, but so there’s all these examples of like, empires and superpowers that fall, and we could be and it doesn’t mean those countries disappear or those cities disappear, but it means they’re not the same anymore. And so we could be entering they’re not the same anymore.
Sarah Jones 10:09
Oh Kamau, I didn’t take enough anti, what do they call? I didn’t take enough medicine this morning for this conversation. But I did.
WKB 10:18
Sorry, no, no. Pop a gummy, let’s pull back, I’ll dial back.
Sarah Jones 10:23
No, no, don’t dial back. You’re kind of reminding us, you know, we might all be stepping over our Coliseum, you know, our, whatever, Sofi stadiums and all of our, you know, Yankees.
WKB 10:29
This used to be the Statue of Liberty.
Sarah Jones 10:33
It never really meant that, but at least it was here as like a, you know, a suggestion of an idea. So in some ways, it’s like, I want to, you know, I’m sort of grateful. It’s like a sigh of relief, like, yeah, we’re kind of fucked. And how do we like simultaneously, you know, live and find joy and take care of ourselves and you’re out there doing stand up and making sure people laugh? And you know, for me this pod is about how do we stay informed and not bury our heads in the soon to be sand surrounding the Colosseum? Man that Rome image is not leaving me. And I have to say, I mean sea level, pick your poison, like, what’s going to kill us first? We got wildfires. We got poisoned water, we got you know, we got plenty to choose from here.
WKB 11:18
We got hurricanes where there hadn’t been hurricanes before, you know?
Sarah Jones 11:20
Yeah, they called it a hurry a quake out here. It was like an earthquake plus a hurricane. Like, we can’t even choose which disasters, right. But, you know, the very serious reality that our trauma, kind of, like my personal trauma, I know, has driven my politics in the past. I definitely remember being out there on the Planned Parenthood. You know, like, I’m doing the right thing, right. I’m protesting, but some part of me is like, take that Dad. Like, I have to really be careful to make sure that I’m not that my trauma, my personal trauma, or my we don’t even have to call it trauma. Sometimes I think dysfunctional family is redundant. Like I’ve like, come on, did anybody? Did anybody get the manual for perfect, you know, you know, being a perfect person in society. Now, I will say when I look at you and your family, part of me is like they might have it cracked, but
WKB 12:10
Oh, no, no, no, no.
Sarah Jones 12:13
Okay. I won’t ask anything too deep or too personal. But even in your growing up, like I remember, you know, listening to your audio, because I love hearing it in your voice about your mom and like the just the freedom fighting and the you know, like literally being one of the first people to like, you know, put black people’s quotes into a book and like she was so gave you all of that, right? Just the ways you describe your growing up and how much you love your parents. I’m not gonna lie, my growing up was more like, am I going to like, am I going to get into an Ivy League school? Because if not, these people don’t really seem to be checking for me. So I guess I’m curious about your childhood. Was there anything? Because I’m like, nothing predicts that you’re gonna have any problems to then grow up and be funny. Like, how did you become so funny when you don’t seem to have grown up with much trauma?
WKB 13:01
No, I mean, well, I mean, that’s what Thank you. I think my parents will love hearing you say you didn’t grow with my trauma. And I’m not trying to say I grew up with a lot of trauma, I just but I still grew up black in America. Like, I still grew up like, like, there’s, you know, and I’ve told the story a lot, I still grew up in a way that my mom was like, you’re like, when I think about myself as a kid, if you’d asked me what I was, my descriptor would have been only child. That would have been how I described myself because that’s how I felt like, it feels like being an only child separates you from so much of the world, but then also at ten my mom takes me to like the local like convenience store and is like, if you ever come in here by yourself, you have to understand that that guy right there is gonna be following you around and he’s gonna think you’re gonna steal something and you’re like what? You know, and at the time, like, okay, not really understanding that it was true and then later being like, oh, not only is it true, but I got kicked out of a store one time just being black in public. You know what I mean? Just for like, so I very quickly understood that like, as protected and safe I felt in my Mom’s house and under her care that the world was not going to protect me and let me feel as safe. Then, I go visit my Dad in Alabama and he had totally different expectations of me than my Mom did, and so you think the pressure to get into an Ivy League school is a lot, tell your Dad you’re dropping out of an Ivy League schools because you just don’t feel like it really is fun.
Sarah Jones 14:20
I don’t feel expansive Dad.
WKB 14:21
Yeah, there’s no, they don’t have a comedy program here at the University of Pennsylvania. Yeah, so like, that was one of the biggest disappointments at that point. That is like, I got into this ivy league school. And then I suddenly I decided it wasn’t for me and I dropped out. And he, I mean, he was devastated. So now again, that’s your Dad being sad that you dropped out of an Ivy League school is not going to top a slave’s best day. Like my worst day, a slave they would be like I wish I had a day like that.
Sarah Jones 14:50
You’re still very much standing on the shoulders of ancestors who are like this, this is fine. This is okay.
WKB So I think but I also grew up around my Mom understanding that like, you know, sort of that King, the MLK quote, but like “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.” So like, I didn’t know that I was going to take that in. I just wanted to be like Eddie Murphy on SNL. But as I started to do this stuff, it sort of became, especially as I get older, and Obama runs for president like he just sort of like it does sort of, like arrive like, this is your work. You know, I didn’t know that was biting, you know, not only get Spiderman “with great power comes great responsibility,” like the privilege of being in this position, I think comes with, like, do something with it. It’s like, just before I got on, like a guy reached out to me and he was like man, I always appreciate how you stand up for what is right. And I was like, it is so easy to do it from my comfortable seat right here. Like I have the privilege to sort of like send it out on Instagram. So I have to remind myself that like, this isn’t really the work, I’m helping amplify the work, but don’t get caught up in thinking like, done for the day with my good deeds. You know what I mean?
Sarah 15:50
But I see your superhero cape flying under the ACLU shirt, because the end this you know, I have my friends who are my co-hosts on this thing. And one of them wants to ask you a question. And you may have met her before, but-
Bella 16:03
Hi, Kamau, it’s me, Bella, I totally don’t want to like take up a ton of space and like white woman spread. But I will say that, like the fact that you like celebrities, you all like it’s not that safe to like, say the things all the time. Like, you have, like, you know, like you’re on TV. And like, there are people who could be like, we don’t like the way Kamau’s politics are leaning these days. And maybe we can take him off the TV like does that. Are you afraid of that at all?
WKB 16:26
So that’s a great question. And not one that I you know, that is one I think about but I don’t talk about a lot. I do have to sort of go what is too far and then go like, What do you mean too far? My joke is that whenever I think about too far, the ghost of Harriet Tubman shows up as like, Oh, is it hard to tweet? it hard to Instagram? I don’t know what those things are. Is it hard? Is it is it free? Freeing enslaved people and, and walking across like the border? In the middle of the night?
Sarah Jones 16:52
Do you have to find the North Star before you tweet?
WKB 16:55
Is it scary like that was scary? No Harriet, so to me, I definitely go well, no matter what happens if they, you know, I remember when my first TV show was canceled. I said to my friend and he reminds me of this. I was like, nobody deserves a TV show. So even though it sucks, like so if I get pulled off the TV. I’m still gonna feed my family somehow, like I’m not gonna be like, well, I guess kids we don’t eat because I’m not famous anymore.
Sarah Jones 17:22
We’ll be having the recommended cereal for dinner that they’re talking about. The capitalists are saying the cereal. Well, I got to ask you this, though, because I do think, you know, it is a new moment. Like, do you feel, you know, we’re living in cancel culture, we’re living in backlashes of all kinds. I do think you of course, you have the courage of your convictions. Do you feel like there’s, I don’t know. I’m experiencing myself right now an internal, you know, battle between me and you’re talking about mixed, you know, mixed race culture. Like I have found myself in the middle of what feel like impossible, like you truly can’t please anyone and then how do you please yourself? If you really might lose your house, if you speak up about you know, a certain thing or if DE&I is just like, suddenly, literally against the law. We can talk about that, but what about when literally, before Rome falls, it decides that it’s going to outlaw everything that you you know, that’s your calling. What do you do then?
WKB 18:34
I mean during the pandemic during the early days, the pandemic because we’re going to be in a pandemic forever. Thanks America. But like, I would like Google, like a pastoral scenes of New Zealand. And I even even put myself on the waitlist for like a migration to New Zealand. I was like, just in case. So I do think that especially as people as black people in this country, there comes a point at which I do think we have to ask the big question, what exactly are we fighting for?
Sarah Jones 18:57
That’s a big question.
WKB 18:59
I don’t mean, I’m not doing the thing where, like, if Trump wins, I’m gonna bump it up. But there certainly comes a point in which you go, if I have, you know, if I’m in if I have the ability to leave, at some point, why wouldn’t you go? You know what I mean? Like, I just think and that, and that has been the story of the world’s history of like, people, and literally happens now, people are coming from, from Mexico and further south to go like, whatever America is going through, it is better there than it is here. Right?
Sarah Jones 19:27
And by the way, it’s because of our foreign policy. You’re welcome. Like we went down there, fuck the shit up. And then they’re like, Um, can we come up there? And they’re like, No.
WKB 19:37
Since you’re so interested in us, how about you have us? So I think that like, and I’m not trying to say compare my plight to what those people are going through. But I do understand the history of the world. People leave, like people, like people go like, oh, this, that’s enough of this. I’ve fought as hard as I can, but at some point, it is actually about your family. I don’t want to put my kids through this. So I think absolutely, like, the thing that I think about is like, I don’t have to endure this for the rest of my life if I don’t want to.
Sarah Jones 20:04
Well, that’s what I was going to ask you. Like, is there because I could hear both arguments, right? It could be like, well, for my kids, I need to stay and make this the best experiment that it can be, you know, it’s terrible everywhere. You know, black people fought and died for the right to vote. And you know, we’re trying to make sure women and I don’t know human beings have some frickin bodily autonomy. Like maybe, you know, we did the only good shit. Like if America has any hits, we wrote them like, we are the ones working people, right? Like people of color. We’re the ones making the catalog decent. Like we’re balancing out the trash. So the question becomes, like, would Harriet be like? No, baby, you go. That’s my worst, Harriet. I don’t think she would start with no baby.
WKB 20:50
Well, there’s not a lot of evidence of what she sounded like. So we don’t.
Sarah Jones 20:55
But anyway, the older black woman in me is trying to channel some Harriet Tubman to ask you what she wants you to stay Kamau? Would she be like, don’t leave don’t go to New Zealand baby they talk funny, they vows is all flat and strange.
WKB 21:10
Well here’s what I would say to Harriet Tubman. First of all, I would explain to Harriet Tubman, transatlantic jet flights. In the future, you had that you only had the choices you in the past in the past, right? Harriet Tubman only had the choices she had terrible Canada was her New Zealand, or like, or Philadelphia.
Sarah Jones 21:30
It took nine months to get there, that’s not accurate.
WKB 21:35
So like I’m not in any way, I’m like to fact that her getting out that way is way harder than anything I’m gonna have to do. But I would say at a certain point, like, there are more choices before us. We can all take advantage of all those choices, but there are more choices before us. At some point, I do think that like, if this country, if a man who has been indicted like 91 times becomes the next president, and he has openly said I’ll only be a dictator on the first day, like that’s a joke. If that guy becomes president, and he has said that he wants to like, he’s talking about he wants to tear the government apart and he wants to Bla bla bla.
Sarah Jones 22:10
Project 2025 is spectacular, folks. It’s bigly. It’s bigly. You fucked us for this. Like first of all you destroyed everyhting and this is what you’re doing with it.
WKB 22:15
It’s bigly, if that’s happening, like what are we doing? Like, you know, like, I don’t know what we’re what we’re…the people I think I feel the most empathy with is all the indigenous folks in this country who are like you are totally-
Sarah Jones 22:30
You fucked us for this? First of all you destroyed everything and this is what you’re doing with it.
WKB
Yeah, so I certainly feel like I understand they’re like and I will support in any way I can to go if you want to the land back movement, I’ve talked about United Shades. I’m not in any way saying like this land belongs to Trump and his kind. But I do feel like at a certain level and I’m not saying I would I’m gonna go it’s not again, I’m not saying if he wins but I do think that like if I don’t put that on the table as a choice, that I’m really wedding myself to this thing to this it’s like the it’s like the guys who played the violin on Titanic at some point you got to get off the boat. Or you still got to think of like, they’re like let’s stay for a little while longer, and they played for a while longer. Then at some point they’re like, I think that’s a wrap on playing on the Titanic.
Sarah Jones 23:13
I took years of lessons for that this feels like a terrible waste.
WKB 23:17
We played for a half hour longer than anybody else would have. So let’s let’s get off this but like, I just think at some point you have to at least have that that idea on the table of like, well, what are my options here? And I don’t think America for me is a by any means necessary situation to paraphrase Malcolm X for the 40 million time.
Sarah Jones 23:33
You know what 40 million and one is my favorite. And listen, you’re blowing my mind right now because I think I have, and maybe it’s my childhood trauma of like, right, like, gotta please everybody, you got to make sure that like, you know, everything’s okay, that means I stay almost I’m gonna be the one like ushering people off the boat, you know, like helping make sure that iceberg is, you know, at least a little more temperate than it was. I really want to notice I think that’s also that itself is a legacy of being the kind of people who you know tolerate the most injustice clean up the most shit. And then it’s like, well, maybe I don’t have to be the bridge that everybody walks across, like you already put in, you know what I mean? Like we might be due for retirement from saving America, like Stacey Abrams, stand down, you don’t have to save America again. And again. And again.
WKB 24:25
She’s like, I did a lot in the time I was doing that and she’s still doing a lot, she’s like, I’m gonna go back to writing some romance novels. And, and I would say this, no matter where I go, I’m still going to be an American. And no matter where I go, I’m still going to be, I’m still going to be sort of like connected to whatever happens here. And again, I’m talking about like, it’s actually like, we booked the flights.
Sarah Jones 24:40
I know, I literally I was like, I’m picturing a GIF of like you typing fast, like that cat at getting your seating reservations.
WKB 24:47
I still have to convince like my wife, my mom, my kids. And you know, we’ve had sort of conversations around this, but like, I just think at some point, but I would say this too that I also understand that I don’t want to be the guy who goes to another country is like, Hi, I’m from America. I’m gonna make this America now like so I get that there’s also, it’s complicated to go someplace else. Especially someone with privilege. So, you know, but I do. I do spend a lot of time on Instagram. There’s all these like, black people who have left America who are like, there’s this black woman. I forget her name.
Sarah Jones 25:18
Is she the the one in Finland?
WKB 25:21
No, she’s the one who’s in Vietnam. She’s just like, talking about how much fun she’s having and here’s my friends, and I found a shop that will do my hair. She’s probably around my age. So she’s like a woman who’s earned the right to like, take a breath if she wants to.
Sarah Jones 25:35
I’m not gonna lie for the rest of my life. I will see Harriet Tubman in first class because of you, like I have this whole image now that if Harriet could come back right now, she’d be like, bitch, give me some champagne. Give me a lie-flat seat. I’m done helping y’all, I’m done trying to fix your inhumanity.
WKB 25:31
Yes, I would like a mimosa. Yes. I don’t know what it is. But I’m gonna try it. It looks bubbly and delicious. Yes, it looks refreshing.
Sarah Jones 25:59
So look, I in all seriousness, though, I part of the reason I was like, I’m gonna do this pod, because I’m hurting. I think other people are hurting from so many different angles all the time. If I didn’t have Instagram, and like I’m, I’m like midway between the New Zealand pastures and like adorable kittens, like I like kittens playing in the New Zealand pastures. Like I need all the escape I can get right now. I think asking people who, like you said, we are relatively comfortable. You are on the board of organizations that help fight the prison industrial complex and gun violence and all of these things. So you are awake and aware. And it’s like, how do we hold both the awareness and the awakeness? I can barely handle a protest. Like being out in the streets. Because when I get home, I need a sound bath for five hours. How do we balance that? Like, how do you in your practical life? Like, I’m gonna go there again, here we go. Lorraine loves you.
Lorraine 26:53
Hi Kamau, it’s me Lorraine. Hi sweetheart. It’s so good to see you, Sarah loves you so much and so do I. Here’s what I’ll tell you. She’s very, the word her therapist uses is dysregulated. That’s what she keeps saying about Sarah. She’s, you know, she tries to find the joy. But then she gets so upset. She’s reading the news. What do you do help her? Should she stop reading the news? At one point, she got rid of the New York Times, but then she was like, I don’t want to be inappropriate, because I know that drug addiction is serious, but she was like a heroin addict. The New York Times Oh, yes. Yes. Nobody knows what can you say anymore? What can you do to minimize the stress? And we also don’t want to be numb. There’s only so many gummies that you can take even at my age. Anyway. Tell us help us.
WKB 27:47
Thank you, Lorraine. I would say that there’s I think I do think that as an adult with a certain level of like privilege in the world, and also who has a public platform, the way that the way that Sarah does the way you have that there is I think and this is my personal opinion, you should be informed about the world. Because you’re going to be in positions we’re going to ask you you can’t know about everything. But you don’t want to know about nothing. Like there’ll be times you will be like Sarah, what do you think about Sudan? Well, I didn’t that’s not-
Sarah Jones 28:14
Yeah, I was, I was at Whole Foods with my yoga pants. Getting my kale, because you know, black women’s health is the most. It’s like, what about the black women in Sudan? Yes, I hear you. We have to do more.
WKB 28:25
You can’t you can’t like and I think it’s but it’s fair to say I don’t know about that, while at the same time like, but I do know about these things that are currently going on in America that Americans had conversation with, I think that’s important. But I think you have to figure out a way to do it in a way that is digestible and doesn’t take up your whole day. So I think for example, if I could recommend my news diet, the thing I usually do in the morning is there’s NPR has a great podcast called Up First. So it’s the horrible news about the world, but delivered in dulcet tones. And it’s like, it’s like 12 minutes long. So you sort of just put it on in the background, while you’re brushing your teeth and making your waffle or getting your kids lunch, which I would do, you wouldn’t do. And it sort of just goes, Okay, these are the awful things that are happening today. And then you can sort of be done because you sort of got a base level, it’s like when it’s like when they say like, you need a base level before you build up, it’s a base level, it’s like, it’s like stretching at the gym, before you get on the treadmill, it just gets your brain like, okay, and if and if that’s enough for you, that’s enough. So I would say if you’re going to do the New York Times, define it to a period of time that this is my 30 minutes of that. And then, and that’s why they put Wordle in New York Times and then move on. You have to like, just find a way to get it in in a way that like is manageable, because then sometimes I will do like I need a little more than that. And then I’ll put on Democracy Now Which is like Amy Goodman.
Sarah Jones
Amy Goodman is feeding you truth from a fire hose. She’s like you gon’ drink this!
WKB
And it just means that like, I feel like at that point, if you do like if you just put a little bit of news in your every day, you’re already more informed and probably 80% of America.
Sarah Jones 30:09
Oh my god, it’s true. You’re inoculated against the general ignorance of this country, just by getting the real deal. I love that. And it’s kind of like you’re saying, balance. It’s different for everybody, you got the waffles and the lunch and the kids, I am managing what I think of as my inner children, which is a cacophony of all this shit I need to fix.
WKB 30:26
Which is real, which is real.
Sarah Jones 30:28
But I think like what, like, I think the tendency to feel bad, guilty, you know, and like, we take some of our own internal negative thinking or whatever it is, maybe the listening to the news makes you feel bad, maybe not listening feels bad. But whatever that is for you. If we then take that kind of spiral that some of us can get into and take it to the polls, or don’t take it to the polls, then we’re fucking up our internal politics and our external politics. So I love that balance as an antidote to you know, making things worse. We’re kind of in a Hippocratic oath as America like, just do no harm.
WKB 31:06
And I think that like the other thing is like, I think it’s also important to me, and I don’t know that you do this, but like, I don’t fight it. I don’t fight under anybody’s Instagram comments. I don’t get into anybody’s if you say something that I think is dumb. I just keep it moving. If you say something dumb under my Instagram comments. We’ll see. We’ll see. I might have to like, but I also feel like I only respond if I think I can say something that is either, like, relevant or funny. I’m not just gonna fight you. You don’t win points for that. I’m trying to meet you, but if you don’t want to be met, don’t be met. But so for me, it’s like I try not to, I try to be additive in the comments or funny because that’s I like to be if you can get off a good zinger that is not actually angry, but it’s just like whapa! For me, that’s good. Then on top of that, sometimes you do want to share, look at this awful thing. But I try to share look at this awful thing. If I also have something to say about it or a joke, something that makes the awful thing a little bit lighter. I’m not just trying to like, share, and then I’m trying to share look at this awesome thing. So like I just saw today, I posted a couple of things about like just videos from Columbia University. And then I posted Nina Simone talking about the importance of being yourself. And I was like, to me this is all the same. That’s the balance. I don’t want people to just show up and get bummed out here. And also I don’t want to be bummed. I want to make sure I’m taking in things that make me feel good. Yeah, right. Nina Simone, you’re right. I do need to be myself.
Sarah Jones 32:30
So this now I have Nina Simone sitting next to Harriet Tubman in first class. Your Mom is probably flying the plane like this just keeps getting more beautiful. I want to ask one last thing, which is people can find your work in so many different places. What’s your favorite way to engage? You have the substack right now like where can people come heal some, they can get some of that good Kamau, you know that that balancing act?
WKB 32:57
Well, I do, I do appreciate the fact that my career has sort of been all over the place in a way that like, there’s a lot of me out there. So and it’s also on a lot of different platforms. So there’s like CNN, HBO, Showtime, like, I just did Top Chef last week. So I’m pretty happy to be, so but right now, the substack is really like I’ve called the VIP room of Kamau, like, if you really want to, like, connect with me in a way, and also hear my thoughts about things that are happening now. Like so much stuff is like I’ve taped that months ago. So like, you can talk to me directly, and we can share ideas and connect so substack it’s called Who’s With Me. W. Kamau Bell Asks, Who’s With me is the actual name I’m big on names.
Sarah Jones 33:38
I love this. I know you’re big on names. America, Who Hurt You? is my namaste to United Shades, everything else that you name so beautifully. And I’m with you and to be clear.
WKB 33:46
I do appreciate that because I’m doing the best I can with what I got here.
Sarah Jones 33:50
I love it. Folks can go check out we’ll make sure we link to all the amazingness that is this world of W. Kamau Bell, helping make the rest of our world better. We dig you, we love you.
WKB 33:59
Aw, I love you. Thank you Sarah, as always.
Sarah Jones 34:07
So Rasheed, you still feel like we need a restraining order against America. Kamau did say we shouldn’t feel bad if we want to leave.
Rashid 34:13
Yeah, he reminded me black people got a history of leaving. I mean, he mentioned Nina Simone. James Baldwin, mad black folks just couldn’t take no more. Ya mean, but still, everybody can just get on a plane. I mean, I’d be going to the airport on a regular but that’s because I drive Uber, you feel me? But I’m saying I think Kamau. He mean, we could still live here and fight to make it better, since we built half this shit for free and they do owe us but it’s like America gonna be in us regardless if we leave. So how are we gonna protect our peace? Ya know what mean, living right here, like real talk. Sarah Jones. I’ll be laughing when you talk about soundbaths and whatnot. But maybe I do need me a black man soundbath.
Sarah Jones 34:57
I feel you and it doesn’t have to be a sound bath. It could be music or video games. Just anything that helps you relax and find your own peace. You know, like loyalty to yourself first.
Lorraine 35:03
Well, I’m sorry but to me, that sounds selfish. Loyalty to yourself. This country may not be perfect, but it’s what we have. And by the way, Nereida. When my family came here around the turn of the last century, we were not considered white either. That didn’t happen till later.
Nereida 35:23
Okay, I hear you, Mama. But the point is, for some of us, we will never have white privilege. We shouldn’t have to in order to belong, or even just feel safe in America.
Sarah Jones 35:34
Yes Nereida, and I hear where all of you are coming from and most of all, I’m remembering what Kamau said about Rome. If we keep pretending America is the greatest meritocracy. I’m sorry, Lorraine, I know you and many of my relatives want to believe in that, and colorblindness. If we all just worked harder, we could all have equality, but those are myths. Not facing the truth that in some ways America is more segregated, divided and unjust now than it’s ever been, that has as poised to become a failed Empire instead of a democratic city on a hill. But Kamau also talked about balance and sharing, not just the awful things, but the amazing things too. So that brings me to our weekly America, Who Hurt You? prompt. We don’t all have the same experience as Americans. But something we all seem to share these days is profound fear, whether it’s about the future, fear of the other, fear that we or other people are getting it all wrong somehow. The amazing thing is, studies show many of these fears are rooted in our earliest experiences. That doesn’t mean the very real horrors aren’t persisting now, but it does mean part of what’s paralyzing and polarizing us isn’t even what’s happening right in front of us. It’s in the past, if we can separate out the fears and traumas from back then, and address them. We have a much better shot at facing what’s happening today, and actually doing something about it without having to leave the country. So back to our prompt. It’s not an easy one. But stay with me. Take a moment to get quiet, breathe, maybe even put your hand on your heart, and think about the worst problem we’re facing as Americans right now. I know too many to choose from, but try to pick just one. Okay, for me, it’s that my tax dollars are funding some of the worst atrocities and injustices I’ve ever seen both here at home and abroad, and I feel powerless to stop it. Now as you sit with whatever your fear is, see if you can ask yourself, when was the first time I remember feeling something like this? For me, it goes all the way back to being very little with the fighting and yelling in my house like I couldn’t trust the grown ups in charge or feel safe, and I felt powerless. Not easy to feel that, but I can also feel this compassion for that fearful little me in the past. And I can see how that original fear might be driving some of my fearful reactions in the present. That’s helping me remind myself in real time, we’re not a little kid anymore, and we’re not powerless. Okay, now it’s your turn. That prompt again was, think about the worst problem we’re facing as Americans right now. And then ask yourself, when’s the first time you can ever remember feeling a similar sense of fear, even if it’s from the past or seemingly unrelated to right now? Let us know what comes up for you. We really would love to hear from you.