UNDISTRACTED: June 2, 2022

God is Big Enough for Our Questions:” Candice Benbow on Faith, Feminism, and Lipstick

Please note: This transcript has been automatically generated.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Hey, y’all it’s Brittany. 

I grew up really loving church. I don’t know if that makes me weird, but I really did.  To be clear, I did not go to one of those stoic churches where you got to fight nodding off to sleep. I went to a historic, organ-playing, choir-singing, and Holy Ghost-filled Black Baptist church.

It was founded in St. Louis in 1846 as the second African church by 23 enslaved and free Black folks. Its second pastor was a spiritual advisor to Dred and Harriet Scott. By the time my dad was pastor and my mother was first lady—yes, that’s what you call a pastor’s wife—it was called Central Baptist Church, and it had a rich history of social justice, community impact, and spiritual leadership. Worship was vibrant, liberatory, soul-filled and very, very, very Black.

This was the place that raised me. They gave me my first choir solos and public speaking opportunities. This was where I built community and I learned how to lead. It was my home. And home is always a place of deep, deep affection; but for many, it can also be a place of pain. And for folks from all walks of life, church has been a place of hurt, judgment, and shame. 

Much of the dogma Christian folks, including the ones that Black liberation theologians use, can give Black women discomfort with our bodies, shame about our sexuality, or harmful perceptions about the roles that we are supposedly meant to play in society. As much as I love the Black church as an institution of historical importance and a station of personal impact, I also recognize the many ways I’ve had to unlearn etiologies that threatened to limit me.  

Things that had little to do with God and much to do with church doctrine. Now, mine was not a Christian conservative or Evangelical upbringing, but I can absolutely trace how the dogma of religion took over the Jesus of it all, leading to the spiteful, hateful policy we see coming from the right. God is love and what they’re doing, it ain’t that.

We are UNDISTRACTED.

On the show today, multi-genre theologian Candice Benbow.

Candice Benbow: Because I was trying to make this world more just and equitable, I believe my wrong will be counted right. And that’s the space that I want the church to be in. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: That’s coming up. But first it’s your untrending news. 

Cindi Leive: Hey folks, this is Cindy Leive. I’m part of the UNDISTRACTED team, and since Brittany is out on family leave, I am here with our untrending news. This week, in response to a deadly mass shooting that left dozens of people dead a government took firm action to save the lives of its citizens by cracking down on guns.

I know what you’re thinking: How did I miss that one? And no, sorry, Americans, that government was Canada’s. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has announced legislation that would tighten Canada’s already pretty strict gun control policies. If they’re approved, the measures are going to include a national campaign to buy back military-style, assault weapons and a ban on the sale and purchase of handguns.

Prime Minister Trudeau: Canadians all agree we need less gun violence. We cannot let the guns debate become so polarized that nothing gets done. We cannot let that happen in our country. 

Cindi Leive: All of this is in response to a 2020 shooting in Nova Scotia that left 22 people dead. And here’s a dark fact, the Nova Scotia shooting was the deadliest in Canadian history, but it wouldn’t rank in even the top five in the United States where we’ve had 231 mass shootings so far this year. And yet here in the U S on the heels of the murders in Buffalo and Uvalde, Texas, federal lawmakers are on recess.

That’s Congress speak for vacation, and it means they have yet to take action. Canada is not the only country that has made dramatic moves after seeing its people slaughtered. New Zealand did it. Norway did it. Australia did it. Speed matters here. There have been 18 shootings where multiple people were killed or injured in the one week since Uvalde alone. Eighteen shootings in one week. If this isn’t a work around the clock issue, nothing is. We have so many reasons to do this. We have zero reasons not to. There could be only one message to our lawmakers when they’re back from recess on Monday and that is: Catch up with the rest of the globe and do it fast.

Our next story is related and it’s a tough one. So please take care of yourself while you listen. It’s about a woman named Liana Hale. She’s 26. She’s Black, She lives in Kansas City. And last Friday, the police shot her five times, despite the fact that she had her hands in the air and told them she was pregnant.

Hale had been in a car at a Family Dollar store when police ordered her to get out. She did and she had her hands up, but according to witnesses, she told police she couldn’t comply with their order to get on the ground because she was pregnant. As one witness told the Kansas City Star, she did not pull a weapon on them. She did not even have a stick in her hand. 

Nonetheless, they shot her five times. Liana is now in the hospital with serious injuries and the police have yet to admit any wrongdoing, though as Mother Jones reminds us, that’s common in many cases. This case is a brutal reminder that despite the outrage, after the murders of Breonna Taylor, George Floyd, and so many others two years ago, the police are practicing business as usual in too many places.

And the police’s violence toward Liana Hale stands in stark contrast to the way officers treated the white supremacist responsible for the bloodbath in Buffalo two weeks ago. They arrested him without a single shot and he was armed. 

Kimberlé Crenshaw, executive director of the African-American Policy Forum and a former guest on UNDISTRACTED put it best on Twitter: If mass murderers of Black people can be apprehended alive, why must Black people in traffic stops constantly fear for their lives?

We’re going to end on a happy note because the world needs joy right now. Last weekend, Marianne Oketch took home the title of sole survivor, meaning she won the reality show “Survivors” 42nd season out of 42. “Survivor” fans got to know Maryanne, a Canadian seminary student for her bubbly personality. And at only 24, Marianne’s also making TV history as the second Black woman ever to win survivor. The first one was 20 years ago. 

Maryanne Oketch: Oh my goodness. It feels amazing to know that I’m going to go and be representation for people who watch these shows. But I hope that not only the Black community is able to be uplifted, but more and more different communities, like marginalized communities, will be able to be uplifted.

Cindi Leive: Maryanne’s victory is part of a long overdue sea change in reality television, especially at CBS, which vowed in 2020 that its non-scripted shows would be 50% BIPOC. This season reflected those network changes and it didn’t shy away from public conversations about the way race has played into survivor dynamics and elimination decisions on the show.

And yeah, I know what you’re thinking, it’s only reality TV; but considering that reality television gave us an actual president, representation matters. Congratulations, Maryanne. If you run for office, you’ve got our vote

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Coming up theologian Candice Benbow on making mental health part of your faith walk, right after this short break.

And we are back. Now, I’ve been thinking a lot about faith lately. Like I said, it’s always been a part of my life. I’ll always be part of the pastor’s kid club, but lately it has really been a part of my life. Let’s just say, I’ve been talking to God about a whole lot. We are not running dry on conversation and faith continues to be a pretty important part of many Americans.

While the number of Americans who say they don’t have a religious affiliation has doubled since 2007, according to a study by the Pew Research Center, the majority of people in this country do still identify with their religion. We may not always talk about it, but a lot of people believe. And if you look beyond the borders of organized religion, the numbers get even higher: about a quarter of Americans say they’re quote, spiritual, but not religious.

And that is a record number. So my point is this: Spirituality, faith, religion, belief, these are important parts of a lot of people’s lives. Of public life. But in this country where religion has been hijacked by the right and where God and Jesus and holiness are used to justify cruelty and injustice, faith can get complicated.

So let’s uncomplicate it. My guest today is a theologian, activist, and intersectional feminist. Candace Benbow says her spiritual practice centers around re-imagining how faith can be a tool of liberation and transformation for Black women and girls. She is a writer and an essayist whose work appears not just in all the usual fancy divinity journals, but in Glamour, Essence, The Root and Shondaland.

And if you downloaded the “Lemonade Syllabus” of essential works made by Black women after Beyoncé released her incredible album of the same name, well, then you’ve read Candace’s work. And if you haven’t done that, then go download the “Lemonade Syllabus”. One of my favorite pieces of Candace’s writing is an essay she wrote for the me too. movement about reclaiming her faith after being sexually assaulted.

She wrote about lying in her car, afraid to go home. It would take time, she wrote, to realize that God was crying with me in the car. Woo, child! Candice’s new book is called Red Lip Theology: For Church Girls Who’ve Considered Tithing to the Beauty Supply Store When Sunday Morning Isn’t Enough. She says she wrote it because even though Black women are the most religious demographic in America, we’re not often the most prominent religious voices out there.

She wrote it because she wanted to claim faith while rejecting misogynoir and cruelty. Needless to say, I’ve been dying to talk to her. 

Candice, it is so good to see you. Thank you for joining me. 

Candice Benbow: Thank you for having me. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: So listen, Candice, for people who are not familiar with your work, I think a perfect way to introduce you is to talk about something you did when you were a graduate student studying theology at Duke Divinity School. You produced the now very famous list of more than 200 works that you called the “Lemonade Syllabus.” Shout out to our good sister, Beyoncé. Talk about the creation of that syllabus. Like, what’s on it? How did you get the idea for something?

Candice Benbow: Yeah, so we all were watching “Lemonade” and so many of us were talking about the Black feminist and womanist works that were present and how it resonated and how  “Lemonade” was in this continuum of work. And this sister hit me up in my inbox and she said, you guys keep talking about Black feminist works and womanist works that you see in  “Lemonade”.

What are they? And that was the first time that I realized that we were having a conversation about Black women that excluded Black women. And I was like, yeah, that’s not what this is supposed to be like. Sis created this beautiful literal cultural production that all of us are able to consume. There shouldn’t be a Black woman who is excluded from any part of the conversation regarding it.

And so I asked one of my homegirls. I said, do you think it would be corny if I did a Lemonade syllabus? 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: You always gotta get that check in.

Candice Benbow: You know? Cause you don’t want to be out here looking crazy. And so she was like, no, like do it. And I reached out really just to my social media community and to my sisters and was like, hey, can you give me like three works that you feel like align with “Lemonade.”

And then from them, other people started sending theirs. And the next thing I know it was trending. So, I actually had a conversation with Reverend Otis Moss III at Trinity in Chicago, and he was like, you should do something with this. Like, don’t let it just be, you know, this hashtag. And that’s how we actually produced the syllabus in digital download form.

I reached out to my Godbrother and was like, hey, can you help me do this? And he was like, yeah. And that is how we got “Lemonade Syllabus.” 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: You consider yourself a multi-genre theologian. What does that look like for you? Like, are you preaching? Are you teaching? Are you, like, getting mobbed at the grocery store with people’s just existential life questions? Like, what does that look like?

Candice Benbow: I am someone who in all of these different spaces tries to think theologically about how, um, we are in these spaces and what it means for our thriving and our interconnectivity. So whether that’s pop culture, whether that’s in education itself, like whether it’s in influencer culture, social media spaces. 

Like, what does it mean to have theological conversations of depth about some of the very things that people may ignore and think aren’t as, you know, weighty as they actually are. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah. But so multi-genre, multi-platform, but not necessarily behind your own pulpit. ‘Cause I know you always laugh at the idea of pastoring your church. 

Candice Benbow: Oh, no. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: You’re like, that is not for me. It’s literally not your ministry. 

Candice Benbow: Exactly. It’s not. Like, it’s so funny because when people tell me that, I’m like, I like saying too much to pastor.

[Laughter]

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: She said that’s not the path.

Candice Benbow: I think that honestly, the kinds of conversations, the work that I get to do is so much broader than the church itself, that it gives me the opportunity to really think through what does it mean to have conversations about faith that are subversive and ways that pastors can and in ways that they often don’t.

And so I’m very clear that like, you know, pastoring, um um, that is not for your girl. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Well, as the daughter of a pastor and an ordained minister, that is a particular calling. So if that’s not the one, then be clear about it. 

Candice Benbow: Yeah. Very much so.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Okay. So I want to get into Red Lip Theology. Obviously, Black women are at the center of your work. They’re the center of this book. The full name is Red Lip Theology: For Church Girls Who’ve Considered Tithing to the Beauty Supply Store When Sunday Morning Isn’t Enough

Now, obviously we know that this is a play Ntozake Shange’s famous choreo poem “For Colored Girls Who Have Considered Suicide / When the Rainbow is Enuf.” But how did you get from that to this? Like how did beauty supply store get all in the mix?

Candice Benbow: The wild part is that no one has ever asked me that question, so I’m super excited.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: I was like, I need to know how we got from there to here. 

Candice Benbow: Yes, so part of it, you know, I talk about sitting in church. The sermon was terrible, and I said I’m gonna go to Sephora. 

[Laughter] 

Candice Benbow: Literally got up. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: This is not a good use of my time. 

Candice Benbow: I’m not gonna sit here and listen to this. And it was so funny because at this particular time, the church that I was attending did offering after the sermon. So I had my money cued up for offering and I was like, well. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: I remember growing up and, you know, like before you had any money, you, it would be offering time and you stick your hand out to your mom and she would put a dollar in it and you go up there and put it in the plate

And now I’m thinking, well, what if I had collected all those dollars and, like, bought some lip gloss?

Candice Benbow: Girl.

[Laughter] 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: So what I love about the book is it really uses this lens of beauty rituals and all that they mean for us as Black women to talk about faith. What made you have that spark of imagination to say I’m going to weave beauty and theology and Black womanism together in this way?

Candice Benbow: Well, one, because that literally is how, they came together for me and then the other part was like, how am I going to have a conversation that’s exclusive to sisters like me, that they’re going to get? And I was like, we know foundation, we know skincare, we know contour and concealer. So, let me use this as a means and an entrance into our conversation with each other. And with us that works to give us the space to talk about faith and ourselves in a conversation that is really exclusive to us.  

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: I mean, you even brought that lens into the way the book is structured, right?

So, each chapter is a different step in the beauty routine in the regimen. So, the first chapter is “We Are Good Creation” and that’s the skincare part, right? That first layer. And it really just had me thinking about the fact that in some ways our beauty rituals are nearly as sacred as our faith rituals. 

Candice Benbow: Yes, they really are. And I was doing my skincare, like literally when I’m going somewhere and I’m putting on makeup. I’m playing Rihanna’s album. And one of my homegirls just finally told me, she was like, you do know, like, this is ritual for you? And I said, Yeah, it is. And so she said, what would it mean for you to be even more intentional about how you carve out the sacred space of this?

And so that really was when I was like, all right, well, what is my skincare? I was like, that is the bare bones foundation. I can’t run from my skin. Like it shows everything, you know, everything about me. Like I can’t run from my skin. And then I just started building with it. And then, you know, I started having affirmations of, you know, when I was putting on my eye makeup, like let everything I see today, you know, remind me of goodness and magic.

When I began to really honor the ritual, that was this practice, it was at a really difficult time in my life when I needed something that brought hope. And this really brought it in a way that allowed for so, so, so much generativity. That was really the main thing that I thought too was, if sisters don’t love anything else, we love God and we love looking good.

And there’s nothing wrong with that. You know, I’ve seen too often, it’s used in, like, sermons as this kind of like a punchline. But there’s nothing wrong with taking a moment for ourselves. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah. I don’t know if this is the difficult time you’re referring to, but I’ve been so touched about how transparent and extensively you’ve written about your relationship with your mother, especially since her passing.

And you talk a lot about how your relationship with faith was really informed by her and her theology and her wisdom and the way she lived that. Tell us a little bit about her. What was she like? What did you learn from her faith walk, growing up?

Candice Benbow: Yeah, my mom was God to me. And I say that not be afiying her in a way that does not let her allow her to be human. But to say that my mom showed me unconditional love and care and nurturing and salvation, and saving my life over and over and over again and giving me opportunities to thrive and correcting me when, when I was wrong. And I think that that’s what parents should do.

My mom was saying that when she goes to heaven, she said, I know God’s going to ask me, what did you do with the gifts that I gave you? And she always said that the gift was me. And she said, parents should always see parenthood as a gift. She was like, you have been given this amazing opportunity to shepherd a life and it should humble you. It should motivate you. 

And I was so grateful to have her because even as I watched her like live into her own faith and feminism, even when we were like heated in the throws of like theological debate, she still gave me room to be me. And I did not until she left and until I had other conversations with adult children, I did not know how uncommon that is. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: I think your mother and my mother are kindred spirits in that way. I’m curious though, is there a moment when you said I have some divergent understandings of what this faith thing is when you were in conversation with your mother?

Candice Benbow: Yeah, it was really my twenties, definitely around sex, but definitely around like the inclusion of like, my mom had this very interesting thoughts around hell. Like, she did not believe that everybody that the church damn to hell was going there, but she also still believed that hell existed. And I did not believe that at all.

And so I was beginning to, like, reject hell. And I think really the universalism of my faith really begins in my life. What in, what? You know, like, girl, who are you and what have you done with my daughter, child? And so I remember very distinctively, we had a conversation, it started at our house and then we both went to my grandmother’s house in different cars and it continued there.

And I remember getting in my car and I just drove home. I remember she came outside to talk to me, to tell me to come back in the house and I kept driving. I was so mad. 

Girl, and you knew.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: You knew what choice you were making. Yeah.

Candice Benbow: I was like, I’m gonna have to keep driving.  

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Show no fear. 

Candice Benbow: But I remember driving home and I was like, she just doesn’t get me.

Like she just. And I remember feeling very hopeless because while I was still trying to figure it out, I felt like my theological views would be the thing that pushed us apart. And when I had a conversation with her, she was like, girl..

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Piped down. Yeah. 

Candice Benbow:  I think that was also when I realized I was able to name the ways my anxiety takes me from like zero to a hundred, because I remember having a conversation with her and I was just like, I just felt like, you know, we were never going to be close. 

And that, like, the way I think about God and faith, like we were always going to be like these bitter rivals. And I’m like sitting at the table, like, crying and she was like, girl, take a nap because all that you’re doing out here is a lot. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: The dramatics. Stop the dramatics. So it’s this kind of transparency that I think have people chomping at the bit to, like, read your work, to engage with you because you are really transparent about these kinds of personal relationships, relationship dynamics with your family.

You also dive into, you know, dissecting parts of your romantic past, and those relationships. And I, I know that that kind of public vulnerability is really not easy. I’m curious, what did it take for you to get to a place of confidence in your sharing? Like how do you want this kind of radical transparency to impact your readers?

Candice Benbow: I realized that I could not have close proximity to whatever I was writing. I had a moment where I had to learn, okay,  you, you feel very called to share because people need to see grace, gracious accountability modeled. So even if you feel called to do that, there’s a way that you can do that, that still leaves you whole.

And so that means that you can’t share if you’re still going through it, right? And I had to make that promise to myself that, you know, I wouldn’t share or write anything that I haven’t had three sessions with my therapist. There has to be some emotional distance, so that I can look at that moment as objectively as I can to say, like, what is it that I can mine from this experience to encourage other people to do the same in their life?

You can’t shame me was something that I’ve already been freed from. And when the objective is to help get other people free, then I definitely am not at all invested in a certain kind of, of shame. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: One of the things you’ve also been really upfront about is your experience and really your healing journey, um, after surviving sexual assault.

And that is something that you and I unfortunately have in common as we do with a lot of people on this planet. You wrote this essay for the me too movement that I thought was particularly powerful in how you reflected on faith in this kind of traditionally practice sense, both helped you and came up short in terms of really supporting your mental health needs.

I’m thinking specifically about this quote, you said necessary to my survival was the rejection of dangerous theology, suggesting one can’t pray and worry. I did both all the time. As a victim of sexual assault, my safety had been compromised and I was fearful of everyone and everything around me. It was nonsensical to believe I could just pray away that fear.

How in the, in the day since, have you integrated your mental health practice in those rituals with your faith? ‘Cause so many people think they can never intersect. 

Candice Benbow: Yeah. It was always easier for me to think through them because of my mom and she would say, you need God and every qualified professional to be your best self.

And so I knew that it was okay, that you could navigate mental health, as well as be faithful and be Christian. And so you’re not even now, like, I recognize that stewarding my mental health is a part of honoring the temple. Right? And so there are moments where I have to be very clear that , like, when I’m not well, I am not the best that I can be. 

And some of that navigation of wellness is out of my hands. Right? So like the ways that, the ways that depression work, like a lot of this is chemistry and family, you know, family dynamics and heredity and like all, like, it’s not just situational. Right? And so I’ve had to learn how to be much more gracious and kind to myself that, like, there’s not something quote, unquote, wrong with me.

God made me. And before I knew that I was going to have anxiety, God knew it.  Before I knew that I would navigate depression, God knew it. And so how do I get the tools that I need? That allow me to be well and ask to lean into a space that reminds me that even with all of these things, I’m still a good creation. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah. You, you told Glamour magazine that you want sisters to know that it is okay to make their faith their own.

That God is big enough for our questions, that it is okay to go on a journey of asking hard questions that we’ve been afraid to even ask ourselves. I’ll tell you that that is what Red Lip Theology has been doing for me and being that Black church girl who’s been trying to unlearn so much of what the institution, that rigidity that you talk about, um, has pushed me away from asking a lot of those questions of myself.

Are there questions in particular that you’re glad you’re finally unafraid to ask yourself? 

Candice Benbow: I’m glad that I finally moved to a space that gave myself permission to ask why, because why doesn’t necessarily mean that I’m going to get an answer, you know. I mean, I think about my mom’s passing. I don’t know the specific ins and outs.

She died unexpectedly, there was an asthma attack. The whys that God, you know, took her from me. God can never give me an answer that is sufficient. Right? Me asking why is emblematic of me just being like, this is just not fair and it hurts and I’m sad and I’m mad and I wish you hadn’t done that.

And I tell people all the time that now on this side of healing, while that is a question for me, when I get to  and I’m looking at God and I see my mama over God’s shoulder, I don’t care to ask that question no more, ‘cause I see my mama and I want to go get a hug. You know what I’m saying? But asking why gave me permission to explore that my feelings are valid.

That what I hope for my life mattered just as much as what is happening in my life matters and that I get the space to reconcile the two. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: You’re holding this mirror up to yourself, you’re helping us hold the mirror up to ourselves. You’re also really holding up the mirror to the church, right?

And I say that capital C as an institution, as a system, as a place of membership and doctrine and policy and money. And holding up that mirror requiring accountability from an institution where people’s identities are so deeply intertwined can be especially difficult. What do you want the church really to see about itself, meditate on and change, right?

I mean, there are some really clear, immediate examples of how Christian conservatives are attacking LGBTQIA folks. They’re attacking trans children. They’re attacking women when it comes to our own bodily autonomy, the bigotry, the transphobia, the prejudice. It is really quite tired. 

Candice Benbow: I really want the church to want to be on the side of God’s heart. And I think that being on the side of God’s heart means working to make this world more open and accepting and inclusive. I feel very much like we are deeply regressing and making those things very much less inclusive and that God’s love has become very exclusive.

And it’s just for these people, if they feel or believe a certain way, and that does not reflect the God I believe that we have. It doesn’t reflect the diversity of creation. We don’t have the capacity to suggest that we know all that we think we do. And what does that mean to release that kind of arrogance and say that I’m just going to let my heart be open.

And I kind of tend to the side that, you know, if I get to glory and I was wrong about a lot of stuff, then I was wrong. But because I was trying to make this world more just and equitable I believe my wrong will be counted right. 

And that’s the space that I want the church to be in. Not, not the painful exclusion, but, but a radical inclusion that makes everybody uncomfortable because we know that to be this inclusive means that we are walking completely outside of our own power, but we’re leaning into something else. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Well, that was most definitely a word from on high. And I think it’s the perfect place to close. Thank you for writing this book for being a field login of all the genres and for making sure that that is the world we’re building.

I really appreciate you. 

Candice Benbow: Thank you, friend.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Candace Benbow is an author, an educator and a theologian. Her book, Red Lip Theology is available everywhere.

Woo, my God. When Candace said that we have to stop feeling obligated to a certain kind of faith rigidity that actually keeps you sick, I felt that with everything in me. Dismissing that kind of rigidity individually is necessary to understanding our own worth, especially for marginalized folks. 

And shaking off that kind of rigidity at the systems level, well that’s the key to experiencing liberation here on earth and not just in heaven. That’s what it means to be a place after God’s own heart. 

You know, people often ask me how to respond to conservative Christians who seem to stand in the way of progress, my answer is always the same, I remind them to read the instruction manual. I’m not a progressive, despite being a Christian, I’m a progressive because of it. Because whether you are a person of faith or not, the guidebook is pretty clear.

And like in Micah 6:8: do justice, love mercy. Anything else is most certainly not what Jesus would do. 

Hey, that’s it for today, but never forward tomorrow.

 

UNDISTRACTED is a production of The Meteor and Pineapple Street Studios. 

Our lead producer is Rachel Ward.

Our associate producers are Alexis Moore and Marialexa Kavenaugh.

Thanks also to Hannis Brown, Davy Sumner, and Raj Makhija.

Our executive producers at The Meteor are Cindi Leive and myself, and our executive producers at Pineapple are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Max Linsky. 

You can follow me at @MsPackyetti on all social media and our incredible team @TheMeteor.

Subscribe to UNDISTRACTED and rate and review us on Apple podcasts or most places you find your favorite podcasts. 

Thanks for listening. Thanks for being. And thanks for doing. I’m Brittany Packnett Cunningham.

Let’s go get free.

LEARN MORE ABOUT UNDISTRACTED

UNDISTRACTED: May 26, 2022

During a Dark Time, A Little Light with Bevy Smith

Please note: This transcript has been automatically generated.

Brittany: Hey, y’all it’s Brittany. I’ve been enjoying the absolute bliss of motherhood. Don’t get me wrong, it’s plenty exhausting. I’ve never worked this hard in my whole life. And yet it is the most abundant place I could ever be blessed to find myself. Baby M is currently learning how to smile. And I personally feel so accomplished because for the first time last week I actually made him smile.

It wasn’t just a random cricket grin on his face. I actually tickled his cheek in just the right spot, at just the right moment and he gave me the widest, most toothless grin I’ve ever seen. I just felt like I could do anything, except apparently protect him the way that I imagine every parent wants to.

I don’t know how to feel raising him in a country where someone can take a gun into an elementary school.

I don’t know how to keep him safe from feckless politicians and a lack of political will. I don’t know how to keep him safe from the failure of this country to have any kind of moral compass when it comes to protecting children. Because let’s be frank, this formula shortage has everything to do with profit margins, monopolies, and deregulation.

In one of the most developed countries in the world, the descendants of the people who built this place cannot seem to make it through childbirth at the rates we should. And somehow some way in a day in time, when the bodies of 10 Black people murdered by a white supremacist in Buffalo have not even been buried yet.

Once again, another mash shooting. People are going to regurgitate the same lines. Somebody is going to say thoughts and prayers. And then somebody is going to say thoughts and prayers are not enough. Somebody is going to say elect pro gun reform candidates. And somebody else is going to say, well, you’re going to take this gun out of my cold dead hands.

And this argument is going to go back and forth until the national attention span once again closes and we’ve moved on to the next. Somebody’s gonna say, this cannot be who we are and somebody’s going to retort, all of the evidence says it’s exactly who we are. And I don’t know what to say. I don’t know what to say to my child who one day will be tying up his shoes and getting ready to come home after a great day at school with his friends, learning and playing and exploring.

And he’ll tell me: We had a drill today, Mommy. We had a drill for what happens if somebody comes in with a gun. Because chances are by the time he is a school age, the reality won’t be any different. I don’t know what to say to you. I don’t know what I’ll say to him. 

To be the supposed greatest country in the world, we should be absolutely ashamed of ourselves. I don’t know how we’re not embarrassed. I don’t know how we can look the nations of the world in the face and actually pretend as though we’ve got it all together. Pretend as though we value human dignity. When every single day children in this country face the violence of poverty and hunger and gun violence.

Whether it’s at a school or it’s in their community, whether it’s at the hands of a white supremacist or at the hands of somebody who never should have gotten their hands on a firearm in the first place, they keep looking at us for answers. We can’t keep shrugging our shoulders in return. We owe them so much more and I don’t know what it’s going to take.

But I can’t live like this. My son can’t live like this. None of us should have to live like this. The parents who will bury their children should never have had to live like this. I don’t know how, I don’t know when, but a change is gonna have to come.

We are UNDISTRACTED.

In today’s episode, we have something very necessary to lift you up because I know we all need it. The fabulous and fashionable Bevy Smith is here to tell us why life, as she puts, gets greater later. We love that auntie Bevy and my UNDISTRACTED colleagues, Treasure Brooks and Cindy Leive had that interview coming up right after this short break.

Cindi: Hey folks, this is Cindy Leive. I’m an executive producer here on UNDISTRACTED. A few weeks back, I had the pleasure of traveling to Vancouver with our correspondent Treasure Brooks for the TED 2022 conference. You know, TED, like TED Talks. Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk. Our guest today brought the house down. 

Bevy Smith is a legend in the fashion world. She made her way to the top of the fashion advertising and publishing universe in the cutthroat nineties, working with iconic brands like Bill Blass. She worked at Vibe and she then went on to run luxury advertising at Rolling Stone.

I worked in magazines at the time and Bevy was a legend, but she realized that she wanted something different. So in her forties, she left everything that she had built to do something new. It was touch and go for a few years before she found her footing, but now she is everywhere. You might’ve seen her on Bravo.

You might’ve heard her on Sirius FM or you might’ve caught her book Bevelations: Lessons From a Mutha, Auntie, Bestie on bookshelves last year. Treasure and I talked to Bevy about why, as she says in her TED Talk, it gets greater later. 

Treasure: Bevy, thank you for being here with us today. 

Bevy: Thank you. 

Treasure: So you’ve lived a whole lot of life and you’ve had many careers in a lot of different phases. I want to start by asking you to introduce yourself with a little bit of a twist. How would you have introduced yourself at 25? And how would you introduce yourself today at 55?

Bevy: Hello, I’m big Bev from uptown. That’s 25. Fifty-five: Hello lovers, I’m Bevy Smith. I’m one of one. Mmm.

Cindi: One of one is pretty great at any age. You have talked about yourself being a late bloomer, and I think in fact that you said that Chris Rock had called you out on being a late bloomer.

Bevy: He once called me the most late blooming mofo he never met. Now, some people might consider that snide, but I revel in it. I’m 55 and I’m here in this curvy body as someone who has done the work. Walk the walk in these very high heels and therefore is qualified to testify in the church and in the court of law that it does in fact get greater later. 

Well, you know,  I’ve known Chris since I was in my twenties. For me, late blooming doesn’t, I believe that everything is as it should be.

And so I’m also very patient, which is probably why I don’t mind being a late bloomer. I’m not someone who really needs to like hit these markers. I’ve never been the type of person that wanted to be on the 30 Under 30 list. But one, because when I was under 30, I was having a lot of fun in my life. I had a career, but I was not focused.

And I knew early on that work was not the end all and be all to a happy life. 

Treasure: And one of the reasons we wanted to have you on the show is because you have that fantastic phrase you’re known for. It gets greater later, which is this idea that life gets better as you get older. And that’s the exact opposite of what specifically women are told.

What are the old ideas around age and getting older that you’re trying to push against? 

Bevy: Well, I think, you know, when I look at my 94-year-old mother and she has this exuberance for life, like, you know, we’re here in Vancouver, she had, we went out to dinner last night and she got home at midnight. You know what I mean?

And she had a Kir Royale. 

Cindi: That’s amazing. 

Bevy: Yeah 94, you know, 

Cindi: Okay, goals for age 94, be having a Kir Royale at midnight with Bevy Smith.

Bevy: In Vancouver. Like, you know, and she had on this really cute little sparkly, silver little outfit. And it means she just, so for me, I was very fortunate because I wasn’t raised in a household where age was a discussion, where complexion wasn’t a discussion, where handling wasn’t a discussion.

Where, you know, a lot of things that societally Black women and women overall have to face with people kind of like telling you why you’re not enough. And, and I think because that was my foundation, I was able to go into a space like the very lily white space of luxury fashion. Cause I was, my clients were, you know, the Milan and Paris designers and that’s a very, very, very white space.

Now it’s changing, thankfully. But when I was doing it, it was a very white space, but like coming from the community that I come from and coming from the mother that came from, I was able to navigate in that and not lose myself. So aging for me, it’s never really been a problem. 

Cindi: You said also that your mother never hid her age and that you never have either, and it’s strange that we should even need to comment on that, but I’m always struck by how common it still is for so many prominent women to be very sort of bashful about sharing their age. 

Bevy: It’s sad. Because especially as every day we hear about someone passing away far too young. Every year is a gift. Every day is a gift. 

You should be celebrating your age, you shouldn’t be hiding from it. And you know, one of the things that really, really struck me and why, and this is something I’m trying to communicate with the young women that are in my life, please don’t be so driven and ambitious that you don’t have fun and that you don’t live your life.

I would much rather them err on the side of having even almost too much fun than having too much work because you can bounce back from doing, you know, you can get serious later and catch up, but you can’t get that. I see so many women now that are in their fifties now just trying to like live life and not, I commend it and I love it and I’m happy for you. 

But I wish they had, like, put down the spreadsheet and picked up a cocktail when they were in their thirties and twenties, you know.

Cindi: That’s the life advice we’re going to leave people with: put down the spreadsheet and pick up a cocktail.  

Treasure: And you sound like you kind of always had it figured out. You came into these spaces, really seeming to have known who you were.

Um, but was it ever difficult? And how, how did you manage to retain those values from your childhood as you got further away from home and ascended in your career? 

Bevy: That’s a really good question because, boy, I was really very comfortable and it’s because I grew up in an all Black neighborhood. I grew up in such a big cultural, important neighborhood, you know. Harlem, you know, I’m walking down the same streets as Baldwin and Langston Hughes and Zora Neale Hurston.

And that gives you a sense of pride now and kind of steadies you.  Also because when I was a child and adolescent, it was the Black power movement, so every day was Black history in my classrooms. We learned Swahili in school. You know what I mean? And you know, in the classroom was just papered with what you now see one month, February, but every day was like that.

And so that also let you know what you come from. What you’re attached to. So when I had to go into the fashion business, I was a receptionist at a really iconic agency called Peter Rogers Associates, and they had big accounts like Black Glama Mink, Vidal Sassoon, and they also had Brooke Shields’ jeans.

Peter Rogers did that account. So Brooke and I were the same age. So she would come in because it’s her business, but she was a kid and I was a kid. I was like 19, she was 19. And so she would ask her mom, can I like not go in? And can I just sit in the reception area? And so Brooke Shields and I would like chat. 

And I ran into her on a trip in the Bahamas a couple of years ago, and I was like, you remember Peter Rogers? She is like, oh my God, yes I remember that. I was like, I was the receptionist. She was like, oh my God! It was so great. 

But so I was around all these big supermodels and all these white standards of beauty, and that was great for them, but I never wanted to look like them in any way, shape, or form because where I was from those ladies couldn’t get arrested on the street. No one would even be looking at them. They’d be like, who is that bony girl with? You know, like it wouldn’t work. So I would have my own particular brand of beauty and where I was from it was appreciated. And they had their own particular brand of beauty, which obviously it was the kind of societal norm.

But I didn’t fall into that. So I always kind of went my own way as far as that went. So that was something that kept me kind of solid and rooted. And then also too, I really do believe staying in Harlem versus moving down to the West Village, which I was offered many times. Back then people were like, oh my God, you live in Harlem?

Are you safe? Are you okay? People always say that to me. I’d be like, it’s my community. They just couldn’t believe it. And people would offer, you know: Bevy, I own a brownstone and I could rent you half. And I was like, yeah, I don’t want, I want to stay in my community. And I think that that’s the reason why I survived it.

Cause I would have been turned around and twisted because I would have really had to have conformed. Cause when you go into, especially back then in the late eighties, early nineties, you going into these all white spaces like working and then living? I think I would have been code switching. I think I would have probably not really liked the way I looked.

Maybe I would have developed an eating disorder. I don’t know, but. I don’t think it would have been the best one. 

Cindi: Yeah. So you’ve always had this really firm sense of self, but you know, you’re also talking about how it gets greater later. So I want to dig a little more into what actually gets greater, especially for you.

And you know, and maybe for a lot of women, you talked about how your feelings of competitiveness with other women and maybe with other people overall have changed. And I think the line you used was that a little bit of grace is better than Botox. 

Bevy: Yes, yes, yes. 

Cindi: Okay, explain. 

Bevy: Everyone’s going through something and we just never know.

And I think that we can get out of our own heads and stop looking at people as competition or stop looking at what they have and coveting that. And we can begin to extend grace and to find a way to really be happy for people. Even if they’re having an experience that you think you deserve. Just like, take a note, and then you give a note. And by giving a note, that means like congratulating someone and really meaning it, knowing that what’s for you is for you.

They’re not taking anything from you, you know? And in the part of the talk that I was really talking about is, like, it was so weird to me that when I looked at it, I was like, why do I even care that someone got a job on some daytime talk show? I only want to do that anymore. 

Cindi: You mean ordinarily or when you were younger, you would have immediately felt your hackles going up, like that should have been me. 

Bevy: Well, I just experienced it last year. I was like, well, why didn’t I get the call? I knew I didn’t want the job, but I did want to get the call. You know what I mean? 

Cindi: So you got to a place where instead your impulse upon seeing something like that would be, hm, let me just send an email and congratulate them.

Bevy: Yeah, yeah. Good for you. And I think that’s going to make you very happy and I’m very happy for you. 

Cindi: So knowing yourself and being able to express grace with others, as opposed to being competitive, those are all parts of getting older. I read a book about two years ago that talked about the fact that killer whales and humans are the only species where females go through menopause and that in killer whales, the post-menopausal whales become the leaders of the pods. 

They become like the honchos, the leaders. And I really love that analogy that, you know, maybe we should be looking more often to older women to be leaders in our culture. And I’m curious what you think about that, whether that sort of ability to lead is something that you think we undressed.

Bevy: Oh, it definitely is. There’s so much wisdom to be gleaned from older women. I love, I call them the old dogs. I love ‘em. Give me, I keep the old dogs around me, you know. And, and I’m looking forward to becoming one of the old dogs. Right now, I’m just one of the dogs. I want to become one of the old dogs. I want to be, you know. I interviewed Cicely Tyson two days before she passed away.

Cindi: Wow. 

Bevy: Because I was one of the few people that got…It was Gail King, me. I think she did one other interview because they were having to pace them out. Cause she was like 94, 95 years old. So she couldn’t do a full, like, regular press run day. So she was doing a couple of interviews a day for her, for the biography, and I got her. And it was incredible to just sit and talk with her.

And then of course, when she passed away, two days later, it made it even more poignant. And to know that she was like that just two days before she ascended a new realm. How powerful is that? 

Treasure: Wow. Bevy you’ve, you’ve talked about being exposed to all these different worlds as you were kind of creating your own for yourself.

You know, being the receptionist as Brooke Shields was there. Owning a company. I’m thinking of the other glass you probably came against was class, like financial difference, you know, in these worlds. How has your relationship to money changed throughout your life? You’re very transparent about the fact from 40 to 45, you really had to restrategize, you really had to re-examine your relationship to money?

What was that period about and where are you now? 

Bevy: Well, in my book, I call it broke, but blissful. So I was really very happy, I just didn’t have any money because I had, uh, you know, quit my job at 38 to pursue this career that I now have. Um, and I didn’t realize that I would probably have to go broke to do it.

Didn’t really plan that too well. I like had, like, I was like, I had a year’s worth of money saved, but the funny thing about that though. 

Treasure: That’s not nothing.

Bevy: Exactly. The crazy thing is, is that I probably could have lasted longer than even a year, but I took the first of my eat, pray, love sepia versions of eat, pray, love trips.

I went to Brazil, South Africa, Costa Rica. I took a lot of acting classes. I flew to LA. I was doing a lot of things. So I spent a lot of money in pursuit of this new life. And so when I went broke, it was like, oh, I was shocked because I had done well for so long. And my dad was a really good provider. We were not rich by any means.

We were certainly lower middle-class, but my dad. We never wanted for anything, not nothing. So I didn’t come from a struggle background, but all around me, I had friends who had struggles financially because I lived in you know Harlem and the median household income probably when I was growing up was in the twenty thousand or something.

Right? And so I knew a lot of  like cagey kinds of ways to get around being broke. I was broke, but I was really very happy because I was pursuing my dreams and I was actually making leeway. So I was on TV, I was writing for Glamour,  for Essence, for Paper magazine. So I was broke, but blissful. Now it’s a really wonderful thing I say in this talk, I would do all these things that I do for free. 

But I don’t fear being broke. And I also do not feel beholden to getting a job that I don’t want or taking on projects that I don’t want. If you ever see me doing anything, any kind of talk, anything that’s work, please know that I’m there because I want to be there. I’m not just there for the money. The money is a big part of it, but that’s the second tier of it.

First is, do I want to do this? Will it make me happy? Will it fulfill me? Am I interested? And then it’s the coin. Then we get into the negotiation, which I love to negotiate too. And that’s something I would say to women, we have to embrace the same way we need to embrace aging. We need to embrace negotiating and asking for money.

It’s a really great feeling knowing that you can go out hunt and forage and then you know, gut the fish and then fry it up in the pan. It’s a really good feeling.

Cindi:  Is that a metaphor?

Bevy: Yes, yes it is because I’m not doing any of those other things, but I do know how to go in negotiate my money, which is why it’s tough for me when I have agents and managers, because I automatically want to get in there and do the negotiating myself. I love it.

Cindi: Yeah

Bevy: I would imagine you love.

Cindi: Yeah, but it’s a hard skill to learn because it can be very scary, you know, and only by doing it over and over and realizing that the world doesn’t end when you say I actually can’t do it for that number. And then often there’s movement after that, that’s the only way it gets less scary.

And it still is sort of scary sometimes

Bevy: Yeah? For you? 

Cindi: Sometimes, yeah. Yeah, I think it’s okay to admit that. I think it is one thing to know that intellectually and, you know, most times in most negotiations, I fully own that and feel that, but I think it’s normal also to have that impulse that we were all taught way too early, that you should be lucky just to be in the room and you have to overcome that.

And take on that attitude of like, you know what, you’re lucky also to be here in the room with me. Um, that’s what allows you to negotiate? 

Bevy: Yeah. 

Cindi: You mentioned before that you thought the fashion industry was changing and I have to ask you because you’ve spent so many years in fashion and fashion has, I think, been often behind a lot of other industries in terms of confronting racism, confronting sexism and making meaningful systemic changes.

Do you feel that it is changing? And where, what kind of report card do you give fashion right now? 

Bevy: Well, I won’t give a high mark in the report card, but I see the changes. I am so elated every time when I am approached by some young Black person that is in a fashion house and has, uh, you know, a vice president plus title.

You know what I mean? Or when I see all the young Black people that at magazines that are like, you know, not just an associate editor and they actually have real big positions. And when I go, when I see all the Instagram and all the young Black people are sitting from well or attending that gala. We were alone in those spaces, me, Emil Wilbekin, the late great André Leon Talley, Bethann Hardison. 

And those are the people that came before me. But like for my group, like Emil Wilbekin and I, we were alone in these rooms and now any young Black person that’s in fashion, there are so many resources and there’s so many people that you can look to now and be inspired by and know that you can do it. But we were just out there charting our own path and figuring it out, you know?

Cindi: Yeah. 

Treasure: The world right now is so crazy and young people like myself, I’m only 22. We’re feeling the anxiety that we have no time. So I really, really resonate with everything you’re talking about of wanting to hit the marks and wanting to be at the CEO level quickly. And so for people like me, for young people that are watching you.

You shared so much wisdom in so many ways for us to, to go through, but if you had to give us one little nugget to walk away with, what would it be? 

Bevy: Um, one little nugget for my babies. You’ve got to figure out what will really truly make you happy and then may not look like what your parents wanted for you.

It may not look like what you see other people doing on social media. You have to, like, really cleave to what you know to be true about yourself. And you have to also forget what the naysayers tell you. You know? People will tell you a lot of different things, but you know, I really do believe in keeping your own counsel when you’re a young person, it’s very important to keep your own counsel.

I also believe in, um, making sure that you have, and I don’t like the word mentor, um, because I feel like it’s not strong enough, but that’s the reason why my book is called, the subtitle is Mutha, Auntie, Bestie. You know, like, you and I have met and, I’ve enjoyed meeting you for these past few days. So I’m your auntie Bev now, but you can literally call me.

Cindi: I will literally call you.

Bevy: Yes. But there’s, there’s a gazillion auntie Bevies in the world that are waiting to embrace you and take you on their wing, so you don’t have to make the same mistakes and you don’t have to go it alone. And I’d say always try and seek out real authentic relationships.

That mentor thing is real tricky. Cause it doesn’t have to be about someone’s stature. Cause that’s why mentoring is like a little, because then it’s like, you’re making a beeline, oh my God, Oprah’s over there. I need to meet Oprah. That’s great. But you could also just meet a nice, lovely woman who has more experience than you, and is willing to share that and that you can actually call. Because, guess what, you ain’t going to be able to call Miss Oprah.

Treasure: To relationships. 

Cindi: Yes. Yes. 

Bevy: So that’s what I would say. And also, but really start trying to dig deep and figure out what you really want and taking those deep breaths and making sure that what you’re thinking what you want, it’s not just what society is telling you that you should. Forget that track. Forget that checklist for, if you make the 30 under 30 lists, that’s cute. 

Great. I’m here to tell you it don’t really mean that much. 

Treasure: You’re gonna upset some people, Bevy. 

Bevy: I know, but it doesn’t really. Because I think about it and I think about so many people that I came through the ranks with. All at the same place at this point. And I might even be doing better than some of them.

And I had a hell, a whole hell of a lot more fun than they did. So I didn’t make any 30 under 30, 40 under 40. They don’t even do 50 under 50, which is a shame, they should do 50 under 50. They should do 60 under 60. I don’t like lists, but.  

Cindi: Thank you so much, Bevy, for being with us. 

Bevy: Thank you my Cindi. Thank you my little Treasure.

Cindi: Bevy Smith is an author, a podcaster, and now Treasure’s auntie. We talked to her in Vancouver at TED 2022, you can hear her TED talk and this year’s other talks on the TED Talks daily podcast. Thanks for listening everybody, and take care of yourself in this tough week.

Brittany: That’s it for today, but never for tomorrow.

 

UNDISTRACTED is a production of The Meteor and Pineapple Street Studios. 

Treasure Brooks is our correspondent.

Our lead producer is Rachel Ward.

Our associate producers are Alexis Moore and Marialexa Kavenaugh.

Thanks also to Hannis Brown, Davy Sumner, and Raj Makhija.

Our executive producers at The Meteor are Cindi Leive and myself, and our executive producers at Pineapple are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Max Linsky. 

 You can follow me at @MsPackyetti on all social media and our incredible team @TheMeteor.

Subscribe to UNDISTRACTED and rate and review us on Apple podcasts or most places you find your favorite podcasts. 

Thanks for listening. Thanks for being. And thanks for doing.  I’m Brittany Packnett Cunningham.

 Let’s go get free.

LEARN MORE ABOUT UNDISTRACTED

UNDISTRACTED: May 19, 2022

Tell the Truth to Set Us Free”: Kimberlé Crenshaw on White Supremacy, CRT and Lies

Please note: This transcript has been automatically generated.

TREASURE: Hey everybody, it’s Treasure Brooks. Our friend Brittany is on family leave with her beautiful baby and we’d plan to take this week off from the show. But that was before Saturday. I know you know about Saturday and I know it’s really, really hard to talk about, but we have to talk about it and we’re going to do it together.

So throughout this episode, breathe deep, take pauses when you need, and then come back. Okay. So here are the headlines: on Saturday an 18-year-old, white gunman walked into a Tops supermarket in Buffalo, New York, and opened fire, killing 10 people and injuring three, almost all of those people, Black. We don’t have to make guesses about why he did it because he told us. He wanted to kill as many Blacks as possible.

That’s an actual quote. He chose the 14208 zip code because it was the one closest to his home that had the highest percent of Black residents. Y’all there are so many things to think about here, to grieve about. There’s the fact that, like most mass shooters, he bought his gun legally. And this country has still done nothing to stop the sale of weapons used for mass executions.

There’s the white supremacist ideology that he drew on. the so-called replacement theory, which tells white people, they’re being outnumbered and replaced by people of color. And which is supported, not just on fringe corners of the internet, but by members of Congress and mainstream TV hosts. And then there are the lives, the lives of those beautiful people in Buffalo.

Before we go any further, before we go into the episodes. Let’s hold a moment of silence for them.

When the news of the shooting first broke, I read the headline and I put my phone down and I don’t think I picked it up for another couple of days. And it wasn’t because I was desensitized, but because I knew that it was going to take some real time, real reflection, real feeling, to process the horror of what had happened.

And eventually when I finally did make my way back to my phone and spoke to my father, he shared with me that a couple of months ago, he traveled to Buffalo, New York. My father’s a salesman and he was brought to Buffalo, New York more specifically, he went into Tops market.

Knowing that my father had entered the same establishment that this mass shooting would occur months later was gut-wrenching enough. But the full weight of understanding that it could have been any supermarket, that it could have been anyone, gun violence continues to rampage our communities.

Racism continues to plague our lives.

As we go into this episode, I’m thinking of all of you. I’m thinking of every one of you who is feeling this anger, this sadness, this grief.

We are UNDISTRACTED.

On the show today, we’re bringing you an interview that Brittany recorded last summer that feels even more relevant now. As you probably know, over the last two years, at least 42 states have considered legislation targeting critical race theory. Legislation that often in practice would restrict the teaching the history of race or racism.

Sixteen of those states have actually passed laws, restricting what teachers can say or teach about race in the classroom. You might think that these debates over education are separate from the murders we saw this week in Buffalo, but, and this is really important. They aren’t separate at all. They draw on a lot of the same theories and fears about white people being replaced or threatened.

Last summer, Brittany sat down with one of the pioneers of critical race theory, Kimberlé Crenshaw, a law professor at UCLA. At the time, the wave of laws targeting race in the classroom had just begun. Let’s listen in.

BRITTANY: Professor Kimberlé Crenshaw, I know you insist on me calling you Kimberlé, but Professor Kimberlé Crenshaw, thank you so much for joining us today. 

KIM CRENSHAW: Oh, Brittany, thank you for having me. I’ve been looking forward to this conversation. 

BRITTANY: Likewise. First up, we know that Republicans have been coming up with all sorts of wild arguments about what critical race theory is and what it aims to do.

I do want to ask you since you helped coin the term and the framework. What exactly is critical race theory? I want to hear it from you and I want to establish the truth right upfront. 

KIM CRENSHAW: So critical race theory really is a way of analyzing, looking at law’s role in creating both race and racism. It was a product of a second generation of civil rights activists and students and professors who came into the academy, came into law schools right at the moment when the forward momentum  from the civil rights movement was starting to recede. 

A conservative Supreme court was starting to limit the scope of what racial justice could actually achieve through the loss.

So our goal was to understand the ways that law makes racial discrimination appear to be inevitable, that makes racial disparities appear to just be there rather than the product of policies, of practices, of structures that are all legally permissible. And in some ways actually insulated by law. 

I guess the easiest way to put it is. We believe that race is not essential. We believe that race is a fiction, but law has helped turn that fiction into reality. It has helped turn what it means to be Black and what it means to be white into concrete realities that stretch all the way back to 1619, and all the way to this present moment.

That’s what critical race theory is about. 

BRITTANY: This point about what the law has done to create race and racism you said before really helps us understand critical race theory as a way of looking at patterns of inequality and looking at how the law contributed to the subordinate status of Black, brown, and indigenous folks.

KIM CRENSHAW: Exactly. I remember when I was a kid, we thought about law as a justice seeking institution. We thought about law, particularly those of us who were born during the civil rights movement and watched as legal remedies were being offered to dismantle white supremacy. So being a lawyer in my household was associated with appealing to justice, appealing to this institution to help us in our quest for equality, for justice.

So I went to law school, with an intention to learn the magic, learn, you know, what Thurgood Marshall and the legal defense fund and all of these, you know, giants in the field we’re doing to unlock access to institutions, to unlock power, to unlock segregation. And we discovered that actually it was rare that law was actually on our side.

For the most part, law was the institution that determined who was an enslaved person or who was not. Law was the institution that determined that Black women as property, their bodies could be colonized to produce more property because law determined that the offspring of an enslaved woman would be property.

That was a legal rule. People weren’t born, slaves law created slaves out of them. It was law that said that Black people could never be citizens. And that as a group we were enslavable. And our enslavability was a natural feature of who we were as a people. So when I got to learn this stuff, it became obvious to me that the ways that we thought about law was at best partial and incomplete, we needed the whole story.

And so the whole story is, law has enslaved us. Law has sometimes been a tool to help us fight against the contemporary consequences of that past. But law can also turn on, on a dime and justify all sorts of practices that we clearly see as subordinating and contemporary echoes of a white supremacist past.

That’s the fuller picture of law’s relationship to white supremacy. 

BRITTANY: Well, speaking of using the law to protect and preserve white supremacy, of course, the great irony of all of this is that that is precisely what the Republicans are doing. Governor Ron DeSantis said the CRT would teach children that quote, the country is rotten and that our institutions are illegitimate.

Just to be clear. And I say this as a former third grade teacher, critical race theory isn’t even being taught in grade schools, correct?

KIM CRENSHAW: Yeah. And, and, and this is the difficulty of the moment, right? Because, A, the right, including the governor of Florida, doesn’t really care about whether they’re telling the truth or not.

We have to remember, these are the same people that are bringing us that lie about the election. These are the same people that are bringing us lies about the January 6th insurrection. So you can’t be surprised that these are the same people that are covering up the truth about our history, the same people that see that promotion of mythology about our past as the key to winning in 2022 and beyond.

I think what we have to do is tell a very complicated truth. And the truth is that classic critical race theory, that’s largely a law school kind of study. It is a field that is in higher education, not so much in K through 12. What is part of K through 12 is critical thinking about race and racism.

By that meaning, racism is not inherent, but racism is real and it has created real consequences, both historically and now. That’s important work that needs to be done. You know, there’s that saying, you know, Brittany, that the truth will set you free. I think we all agree to that; left, center, and right. The difference is that our side wants to tell the truth to set us free.

The other side wants to bury the truth to sustain their access to power and dominance over the rest of us. And that is the terms upon which we have to fight back. 

BRITTANY: So this fight is real. It is vast. And just like Republican lawmakers, fear of trans kids playing sports, this fight and their arguments are not based in fact.

So what is this attack on critical race theory really about? And what do you make of its timing?

KIM CRENSHAW: This has spread like wildfire ever since President Biden rescinded President Trump’s order to ban training around structural racism, implicit bias, diversity, gender equity. I think the timing tells us everything we need to know.

You know, whenever there’s been reform, Brittany, throughout our history there has been retrenchment. One of my first articles was called “Race, Reform and Retrenchment.” And it said we can count on the supporters of the status quo and the right wing to respond to reform as though something has been taken away and they have to correct for the overcorrection.

This is coming on the heels of the mobilization last summer around George Floyd and all of the efforts of people across the country to think more broadly about what the killing of George Floyd told us about the state of structural racism in the country. Students are asking questions. Corporations are even saying We support Black Lives Matter. So how could they respond to it? The other side, they couldn’t say we are anti anti-racist. They couldn’t say we are pro you know, killability of Black people. So they discovered that they could pour all of their resistance in their grievance in this category called critical race theory.

They could just take it and decide what it meant to mobilize people to oppose. 

BRITTANY: So at the end of the day, is all of this distraction and all of this fuss and all of this hubbub really about preserving a white supremacist status quo?

KIM CRENSHAW: Well, you know, it’s hard not to take seriously what they say they’re doing.

So, you know, the promoters of this made up hysteria have said they don’t give an expletive about what really critical race theory is. They’re not trying to think about how a multiracial democracy has to be predicated on all the times in the past that this Republic has been built on the opposite impulse.

They’re not trying to have that conversation. What they’re trying to do is create a mythical story about our past that whitewashes so many of the truths about how we’ve come about. About the fact that the wealth of this country has been built on stealing labor and stealing land and rationalizing that theft by characterizing the people whose land and labor has been stolen as less than white people.

This has been part of our history. So we are at a time where the challenge is taking into account that history in order to understand that the ground that we stand on is ground that has been created out of racist laws in calling that the neutral status quo, the status quo is not neutral. It has been produced by, you know, this past.

So yeah, we are at a period of time where there’s a sense that if we are going to hold on to our myth, we’ve got to shut them down. We’ve got to preclude them from telling our young people the truth. We’ve got to line up behind this so-called patriotic education. And I think the subtext to all of it is what we saw playing out at the Capitol.

When people, you know, invaded the Capitol, they thought that that aggression was self-defense, they thought that something was being taken away from them and that something is this democracy that’s now a multiracial democracy. So at the end of the day, it is about insecurity. It is about grievance and what the right is stoking that insecurity and that grievance. It’s bringing these far right-wing messages into the center of the Republican party. And we have to build a coalition that calls that out and says that the time for the appeal around protecting a notion of white grievance is passed. We can not go back down that pathway anymore.

Whew. 

BRITTANY: Amen. We cannot go on that pathway anymore. I’m wondering what you think about, or if you have any concern that even if these bills to ban CRT and the true teaching of history ultimately don’t succeed that there’s already been a chilling effect on some educational institutions and really how do we combat that?

KIM CRENSHAW: Oh, absolutely. I mean, the main point of this really is the chilling effect. We’re already hearing from teachers that they’re taking Alice Walker out of their reading list, that they, they think that they can’t teach the story of Ruby Bridges. We already heard of a teacher in Tennessee who was fired for teaching among other things Ta-Nehisi Coates essays. 

I mean, the backlash is real. There are casualties already and will likely be more so this isn’t theoretical, this isn’t, you know, an exaggeration, the battle is happening as we speak. So yes, I’m deeply concerned about it. And let’s also be clear. This is not just a red state question.

So when President Trump in September signed that executive order, banning, uh, diversity training, banning any institution that is a grantee of the federal government, from teaching these ideas, two things happened. Number one, a lot of the free speech advocates, all the ones who have been telling us throughout the last couple of decades, the response to racist speech, assault to speech, hate speech is just more speech.

You can’t ban it. Suddenly lost their tongues, right? They were not showing up in the way that they should have to denounce this effort to silence conversations about structural racism, but more problematically, higher education, sometimes jumped in an overly aggressive way. So case in point Stanford university issued an edict to say that one could not say on campus that structural racism exists at Stanford, Stanford university.

So there are those who are willing to accept this ban, this gag order. Partly one has to assume because there is ambivalence about whether these concepts actually should be part of higher education, should be debated in classrooms, should find a place in publications in the development of knowledge.

So there are many who we might think of, as you know, our allies. Many folks and institutions who we think would be appalled by this who haven’t been, that’s sobering, but it’s clarifying at the same time. 

BRITTANY: Yeah, it has to be clarifying. It certainly shows us who our friends are and are not.  

On the flip side though, I wonder if we should see this moment as a sign that even against all odds we’re evolving and really that there will be a generation of students who are better educated on these issues than their parents or even their grandparents were. Is there some light of hope there?

KIM CRENSHAW: Yeah. Well, you know, I think, Brittany, that the silver lining is that sometimes the best way to ensure that people will be demanding something is for their elders to try to take it away from them.

So I’m hearing more requests, more “please tell us what critical race theory is.” More Googling around critical race theory in the last six weeks than I’ve seen in the last 30 years. So I do think that the hysteria that the right wing has tried to stoke around critical race theory does have the impact of telling younger generations that there is a there, there. The reality of course, is that we cannot fix problems that we can’t see.

We can’t come up with approaches to dismantling the toxic dimensions that have been placed in our institutions if we’re told that the solution to that toxicity is to not see it, you know, not name it, not develop the tools to remove it. That is how crazy this moment is. And I think there’s an entire generation that’s starting to see this is insane. 

We wouldn’t do this for any other issue we cared about. Like, we put asbestos into our buildings and now we realized that that was toxic. Can you imagine the response being, Okay, well, the solution to asbestos in our institutions is we’re not going to use the word asbestos, we’re not going to talk about it.

We’re not going to look at the architecture to see where it might be hidden. We’re not going to create, you know, experts that can tell us how to get it out and create institutions in which everybody can breathe in a healthy way. We would never do that with a social problem that we really cared about.

So we shouldn’t do it when it comes to dismantling the contemporary dimensions of our racist history. I think young people are seeing that and my hope is that this baton that’s being passed to them is one that they’ll be able to carry to the next generation. 

BRITTANY: Well, before I let you go, I have to tell you that I am grateful that you saw fit to mother this intellectual tradition and so many others.

‘Cause I’d be remiss if I didn’t take a minute to also say that in some ways you’re the godmother of this show. You coined the term “intersectionality.” You built on the scholarship of people like Patricia Hill Collins and so many more to really provide us this framework. And we describe ourselves as an intersectional feminist and womanist podcast.

I really am curious how it feels to see this framework really take off. I mean, there are t-shirts out here, right, that say “If it isn’t intersexual, it isn’t feminism.” Are you hopeful for a truly intersectional future, one we’re solidarity is the norm?

KIM CRENSHAW: Well, I am, I am hopeful, Brittany, and I’m also a realist.

I’m delighted when I see people pick it up, some of the frameworks and the tools. But I also think it is so important that folks recognize that it’s not enough just to use the words “intersectionality” and “critical race theory.” It’s not enough to declare who we are. It’s really not even an identity category.

It’s a practice. It’s a history. It’s a set of tools. It’s a way of reading, a seeing, and an acting. And we have to be about making it clear that our ideas are only as strong as our ability to make sure that the stakeholders are aware of how volatile the situation is, how everyone who has benefited from the opening up of these institutions in these ideas has a stake in defending this work and advancing it forward. 

And importantly, Brittany, I think that we have to understand that nothing is just there to be taken for granted. There are so many dollars being spent, so many resources being spent to take apart these coalitions, take apart these ideas, attack it. 

And our side has to be about investing time, energy, and resources into ensuring that this framework and these ideas and these institutions remain there for future generations to build further into our future. A future that’s worthy of being called a democracy when. 

BRITTANY: Well, I have my marching orders and I’ve got all the inspiration that I need to keep marching.

I am just so indebted to you every day for all that you do for Say Her Name, for your scholarship, for your continued activism and organizing. And I am really, really grateful to know you. And so grateful that you gave us just a bit of your brilliance today. 

KIM CRENSHAW: No, Brittany, I am so delighted to know you, thrilled to be on your show, happy to be passing the baton to this generation.

So I can eventually, you know, sort of go on and retire somewhere. Not, not immediately, but I know that the things will be well with you and your entire generation. So it’s my privilege to join you in this conversation. 

BRITTANY: I am completely floored and honored by that, but we’ll make sure you get time to put your feet up because you more than deserve.

Kimberlé Crenshaw is a professor at UCLA and Columbia Law Schools, a leading scholar of critical race theory and intersectionality and the founder of the African-American Policy Forum.

The truth well, that will set us free. We know it, they know it, and that’s why we have to continue to speak the truth of our racist history and our racist present if we are ever to root out white supremacy. As professor Crenshaw reminds us, race and racism are not natural. There’s nothing inevitable about racial discrimination, but the law and other systems and policies have helped turn the fiction of racial disparity into reality.

Now Republicans with their bizarre attack on critical race theory are trying to preserve the status quo. They are benefited by burying the truth. We can’t let them whitewash our past and we certainly can’t let them reframe themselves as the victims. We have to call this out, as Professor Crenshaw says we cannot fix problems that we can’t see.

We have to name it and never forget we all have a stake in defending the work, the practice of critical race theory. So let’s study up and take action.

Hey, that’s it for today, but never for tomorrow. UNDISTRACTED is a production of The Meteor and Pineapple Street Studios. 

Our co-host is Treasure Brooks. 

Our lead producer is Rachel Ward.

Our associate producers are Alexis Moore and Marialexa Kavenaugh. 

Thanks also to Hannis Brown, Davy Sumner, and Raj Makhija.

Our executive producers at The Meteor are Cindi Leive and myself, and our executive producers at Pineapple are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Max Linsky. 

You can follow me at @MsPackyetti on all social media and our incredible team @TheMeteor.

Subscribe to UNDISTRACTED and rate and review us on Apple podcasts or most places you find your favorite podcasts. 

Thanks for listening. Thanks for being. And thanks for doing.  I’m Brittany Packnett Cunningham.

Let’s go get free.

LEARN MORE ABOUT UNDISTRACTED

UNDISTRACTED: May 12, 2022

“I Want to Raise a Free Black Child”: Brittany Packnett Cunningham and Reginald Cunningham on Parenthood

Please note: This transcript has been automatically generated.

Brittany: Hey, y’all it’s Brittany. I’m still out on maternity leave. So, I’m co-hosting this episode with the fabulous Treasure Brooks. 

Treasure: Thanks Brittany. This week on UNDISTRACTED, we’re going deep into the laws and the people of one state. 

Brittany: We’re going to Texas, y’all. 

Treasure: Texas has always been large in the life of America.

It’s the largest of the continental states and often boasts that it was once a nation unto itself. Texas has given us four presidents and more importantly, Beyoncé. But last fall, Texas gave us something else. An abortion ban that prohibits the procedures shockingly early in a practice. Other states like North Dakota and Georgia had tried similar six week bands, but the courts had always overturned the laws. They’re unconstitutional under Roe V. Wade. Which despite what you may have heard last week is still the law of the land in May, 2022. But Texas banned abortion in the cruelest possible way. The antiabortion law includes a new provision that allows private citizens to sue people for money if they get an abortion after six weeks. And now Idaho, Oklahoma, Missouri, and more states are following suit with similarly structured abortion bans.

That’s not all that’s happening in Texas under Beyoncé’s wide and high very sky, the state has also threatened to bring child abuse charges against parents who help their trans kids get gender-affirming medical care. And like clockwork, Alabama and Idaho have followed suit. So we decided to take a closer look at Texas because what’s happening there is coming for all of us. Voter suppression, bands on teaching history, the loosening of gun laws. Texas matters, and we’re paying attention.

We are UNDISTRACTED.

Treasure: Today, an episode, we’re calling “What the Fuck, Texas?!”. We’re talking to congressional candidates Jasmine Crockett and Jessica Cisneros, and potentially the next governor from the state of Texas Beto O’Rourke. 

Beto: What happens in Texas does not just stay in Texas. This fever dream of radical fringe extremism is being exported to the rest of the country.

Treasure: The first step to stopping that trend is to understand it, which is what we’re going to do this week.

Our first guest today is running in the democratic primary against Texas representative Henry Cuellar. He’s the last anti-choice Democrat in the House of Representatives. In fact, Henry Cuellar is pretty far right on a lot of issues, not just abortion. He’s also voted against climate legislation, received an A rating from the NRA, and voted in favor of building Trump’s Border Wall.

Those factors led Jessica Cisneros to challenge Cuellar back in 2020. And when she came within three points of beating him then, that gave her the fuel she needed to challenge him again this year. Now her odds may be even better. 

Last week’s leaked draft of the Supreme court decision that will likely overturn Roe V. Wade has put Cuellar’s antiabortion position in the spotlight. We wanted to talk to Jessica Cisneros about her primary, the 20th House district in Texas, her work as an immigration attorney, and her surprising connection to her opponent.

You’re running in a primary runoff against your former boss. How did that come to be? 

Jessica: I interned for my current opponent Congressman Cuellar  when I was in undergrad at the University of Texas in Austin. So back in 2012, when DACA had been announced, I was at an internship at the immigration clinic that’s there at the law school.

And I was like, Hey, I got this fellowship. It seems like immigration reform is on the horizon. I want to have a front row seat to see if it actually gets passed in the House and in the Senate. So I’m going to take this opportunity to work in capital health. And I think a lot about this experience, especially when I was deciding to run.

Because as someone who, um, was doing this, like very plugged in, right into politics, it took me having to be in my congressman’s office to actually find out what his political stances were. And you know, how out of sync he was with the values of the district. Like I found out, you know, how, how anti-labor, how anti-reproductive rights, anti-choice.

All the lobbyists that were walking into the office, not being reflective of. like. people back home. There was just so much that I, it was kind of eye opening and, you know, looking back, I was like, well, this isn’t something like it shouldn’t have to take working for your congressmen to find out, you know, what he’s actually doing on Capitol Hill and like how he’s not representing us.

I think the most heartbreaking thing was that I went there, you know, to try to get immigration reform passed. And he was, like, advocating for a piecemeal legislation that, you know, would just throw a lot of people from our community under the bus. But the, the inspiring thing that I did experience while working on Capitol Hill was that I noticed that there was a bunch of 20 something, 30 something years that we’re basically running our government. 

Right? And to me that was like really inspiring because you have a bunch of like these aides and staff on people in people’s congressionals offices. And, you know, it’s amazing the kind of work that they do and the pace that they do it at, and they’re hardworking people.

And to me, when I decided to run, I was like 20 and 30 year-olds run Washington, DC. They run this country. I’m qualified to run for office because, you know, I have the personal and professional experience to be able to advocate for people back home. 

Treasure: Well, I want to lean into that for a second because running against your former boss would be intimidating for literally anyone, but Cuellar is the nine term incumbent.

So could you just tell me a little bit about how you deal with the skepticism around your age and experience level compared to his?

Jessica: I really let my policy and my experience speak for itself. Like, yes, I might be a young attorney, but when you’re talking about professional experience, I just mentioned that I went into immigration advocacy back in 2012.

It’s almost going to be 10 years. Right? Also my personal experience is something that a lot of people, when they decide to vote and trust this campaign, it’s because of that, right? The fact that I was born and raised in this district in Texas 28. In Laredo, Texas, I’m the daughter of immigrants. Like so many people here in this district, it seems like everyone has their own immigration story and we all have our own healthcare story.

And, you know, people are tired, right? That they have to go to Mexico for any kind of healthcare that, you know, we have children. I, my experience was that at 13 years old, I had to fundraise with my family to try to pay for my tia, her, um, cancer treatment. And we just couldn’t afford it. Right. And those are still some of the stories that happen day to day.

And, you know, to let people know this is a policy choice and explain to them why we deserve better. So that really is, you know, our sticking point in our campaign that we deserve someone that’s close to the struggle that understands what that struggle is like, but also understands what the solutions are because obviously the status quo isn’t working for so many people here.

Treasure: The most recent census shows that the Latino population in Texas grew to 40% of the state over the last decade.

And that’s a really important set of voices to hear when we talk about Texas’ influence on America, just the rest of the country at large. Can you talk about how the attitudes about immigration in the state have changed from when you were growing up to now, when you’re out there talking to people in your district? 

Jessica: You know, here in Laredo, it really does seem like everyone has their own immigration story, whether it’s themselves or their parents or their grandparents, like we’re right next door to Mexico.

Um, a lot of my childhood was spent, you know, going back and forth, visiting family, but always sleeping at home. Right? ‘Cause it’s just a very transnational area of the country. And beautifully bicultural. And I don’t think personally, like people have changed. I have noticed, obviously since Donald Trump was elected.

But a lot of the media coverage has definitely changed. And there seems to be a very hyper fixation on what’s happening here in the border. You know, we kind of get seen as like an area of the country where, um, migrants or immigrants come through to make it into, deeper into the United States, but they don’t really talk about what border community life and you know, is like. Right?

We’re not just a gateway for immigrants, which is something that we’re proud of because again, of our history, but we also have a community that just lives here and prospers here. And a lot of the focus that I have in any kind of work that I do, whether it be, you know, being an immigration attorney or talking about, you know, what life is like here on the border is that I don’t want people to forget that, you know, we live here and have communities.

Um, and to see us as part of this country that deserves, you know, continued investment and more investment and not just look at us as a place that has to be dealt with, or that the only kinds of investments that we are worth are, you know, further militarization and more surveillance and you know, more private prisons.

Like, no, we deserve more education. We deserve, you know, more infrastructure. We deserve investments in our health care. 

Treasure: I want to understand a bit better in regards to how the country at large is viewing the situation at the border. What is the state now? What should we understand about the border now that we still don’t even following the Trump presidency?

Jessica: I mean, there’s a lot of politicians that just for, you know, political points, um, continue using us as like a punching bag and the news that came out that Greg Abbott was calling for further inspections, um, along the bridge. And, um, for that, that for us means like our life gets interrupted, right? Because it adds additional traffic time.

And I think that for us, it’s really disheartening, um, to continue seeing a lot of the things that got started under the Trump administration at the stroke of a pen are really difficult in practice to be able to stop them. And I want people to know that, you know, we didn’t get here overnight. What made Trump possible?

A Trump presidency possible didn’t happen overnight. It was a lot of action and inaction that led us to this point, despite Trump not being in office anymore. An example of this is that there’s still parts of the border wall that are going to go up here in my hometown. We’ve never had border wall, a border wall here.

Um, but because of, you know, steps that Donald Trump took while he was in office, it became really difficult for us to be able to stop it. Um, despite, you know, efforts on behalf of the Biden administration. And it’s infuriating for us to know that our congressmen had part in that, right? 

That he voted to approve border wall funding along our district multiple times. And although he pays lip service to say like, no, I’m against the wall. When you take a look at votes like that is not the case. And right now we’re at a really good position to, you know, still try to prevent, you know, Donald Trump or the next Donald Trump from taking over our country, especially with our democracy on the line.

Um, right now, But we cannot let this opportunity pass.

Treasure:  I want to understand a bit better what differences you’ve seen in the Biden administration regarding border policy. 

Jessica: There were some changes that made it, um, a little bit. I don’t want to say easier, but people became more, more reasonable, I guess when it came to advocating for immigrant families and for people in detention.

Whereas before, it was nonsensical. Like I truly cannot describe it because even I, as like an immigrant, as someone that has been doing immigration work for a very long time, when I first started working on this, um, kind of human rights work, I truly could not comprehend like what I was supposed to do on behalf of my clients, because when you read the law and then figure out what the Trump administration’s interpretation of it was, it just absolutely did not make sense.

It was like upside down world, essentially. A lot of immigration attorneys, like very, very close to burnout because we literally felt like our hands were tied and we couldn’t do anything on behalf of people that we cared about versus now. I mean, it’s still very, very difficult because a lot of those interpretations that I mentioned that didn’t make sense in immigration law are still there, but I think what people are bracing themselves for obviously 2024 is still a couple of years out.

But, you know, if we do get another Trump presidency, if that is a possibility, like, what does that mean, right? On behalf of our clients, on behalf of the work that we do. 

Treasure: In regards to Texas politics in general, what is the future progressive politics there? Your opponent has been endorsed by speaker Nancy Pelosi, even though he tends to vote with Republicans and as she put it, she supports all the incumbent Democrats quote from right to left.

There is obviously a giant rift between the old guard and the new, between moderates and progressives in your party. So what do you think Democrats need to do to up their game in Texas? 

Jessica: I think it’s also very motivating to me and inspiring to me to think what effect this campaign could have, not just to like in two years, But a win here, what it could mean for the next decade for progressive politics here in Texas and in south Texas, the reason why we have been very successful I think is because of two things and both of them are centered around people.

The first one is obviously our people-centered policy, which, you know, we are fighting for Medicare for all. We are fighting for a $15 minimum wage. We’re fighting for our reproductive freedom. We’re fighting for, you know, safe and livable environment. And that includes clean water, which unfortunately you would think that that’s a basic right, that everybody should have access to, but there’s areas in the country, including Laredo, Texas, where we don’t have, you know, very reliable access to clean water.

But the other thing that I want people to also take a look at is our people-centered campaign. To see people that originally started off maybe two years ago, you know, being really shy. That was their first kind of political event that they had gone to. ‘Cause they were like, I don’t know if politics is a space for me.

All of a sudden being at these events and they’re frequent, uh, supporters that come out and that’s exciting because that means that there’s growth. Like we meet the effort to let people know that this space, because they are residents here because they live here, they belong in these spaces because these are spaces where policy is being created or being talked about.

That is going to affect them. 

Treasure: I’m wondering what other sort of precedents you think are possible through this campaign? Because other states have recently been looking to Texas as a sort of legislative role model and following in its footsteps, mostly for somewhat negative policy. So we’ve seen it happen with copycat attempts to ban abortion and to arrest trans people more recently.

But do you think that there’s potential for Texas to lead, you know, in a really positive way to offer a blueprint for radical unnecessary change 

Jessica: Part of the challenges, um, that we have been facing as a grassroots campaign here is, um, the lack of political infrastructure and Cuellar has never been in a runoff, like what do we expect?

But I do hope that, you know, when we are successful, that people kind of take a look that despite the odds, despite people telling me from the very beginning that this was going to be impossible, um, that we showed them that it is possible. And if we can do it here in south Texas, it could probably be replicated elsewhere in this case.

Treasure: Jessica that gave me chills. Cuellar never been in a runoff. I think it’s, I think that’s so interesting because everyone’s focusing on the ways that this is, you know, unprecedented territory for you and you being new to this and relative to him, but really this is, this is new for everyone involved, which means that there’s such robust possibility for Texas, regardless of the outcome, though.

I personally cannot wait to see what happens on May 24th. It strikes me that like a few guests on our show. Cori Bush from Missouri, Morgan Harper from Ohio. You lost your first race and decided to run again. Is there anything that you would want a young person, maybe, especially a young woman who’s interested in politics that is listening to this episode to know as they consider a career in politics?

Jessica: Yes. That they can do it. That there’s no specific roadmap to get involved in politics. As long as you are someone that exists where you exist, like you should be able to have a say in the policy that affects you and those around you, I’m not your traditional politician, right? I’m a young 28 year-old Latina from the border. 

But I know that my professional and my personal experiences are valid. And that’s what I tell our fellows. And, um, you know, any young volunteer for a campaign that your lived experience is valid and like, no one can take that from you. No one can take your experiences from you and you can talk about that. And people always tell you that things are going to be impossible.

You just got to say, watch me, right? Like, I’m going to be able to do this. I know that I can do that. I am really proud to lead a team that’s composed of young people. You know, sometimes we like sit down, we get along really well. We sit down, we look around and we’re like, isn’t it funny? We’re like striking fear into the heart of, you know, so many older people, um, who have told us that, like we can’t, you know, do this.

And to be as successful of a campaign that we’ve been able to, to get so close to winning is just really validating and gratifying. And we just owe it to like all these people that are supporting us every single step of the way. From here until election day, which is actually going to be my birthday. I’m turning 29 on May 24th.

Um, it’s going to be an exciting day and it’s gonna, it’s gonna be a beginning for so many things that’s gonna happen here in south Texas. 

Treasure: Yes, it’ll be your birthday. That’s so, that is a good sign. And anyone who has any reservations about your age, you’ll be at least one year older when you finally step into the role

Jessica: That’s right. 

Brittany: Thanks so much, Jessica. 

Jessica: Thank you so much.

Brittany: Jessica Cisneros is a candidate for Congress in Texas’ 28th district where she faces a runoff election in the democratic primary on May 24th. She’s been endorsed by Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren.

Treasure: Coming up, Brittany will be talking to Jasmine Crockett about the Texas lawmaker walkout to protect voting rights. And Beto O’Rourke will join us to tell us about his vision for a new Texas and his campaign for governor. That’s right after this break.

And we’re back. There’s another Texas-sized election happening on May 24th. Like Jessica Cisneros, Jasmine Crockett is also in a runoff election. For her, a seat in Dallas and its southern suburbs. She’s been endorsed by the outgoing Congresswoman Eddie Bernice Johnson to succeed her. Jasmine currently serves in the Texas House where last year she was one of the lawmakers who left the state to try to block the passage of new voting restrictions.

A bill called SB1, eventually though, SB1 did make its way through the pink dome, that’s what Texans call their State House, to become law. It limits voting by mail and introduces the threat of jail time for election officials who distribute applications for mail-in ballots among other restrictions. In short Jasmine and her colleagues were right.

It’s a disaster and it matters way beyond Texas’ borders. Brittany talked to Jasmine about what she’s doing about tht. 

Brittany: Listen. I mean, the people need to know we are both from St. Louis, which means we had automatic kinship when we met, but we were like sitting on a rooftop about to do “The Cross Connection” on, on MSNBC, our girl, Tiffany Cross’ show.

And we both looked at each other likeI know you. And it turned out not only do we know each other, we knew all the same people. 

Jasmine: Absolutely. People wouldn’t believe it if we told them, but like literally, like we both not only grew up in St. Louis, but we went to somewhat of rival high schools. 

Brittany: I know, listen, when you are Black and going to private school, you end up connecting no matter what.

It’s like, we gotta, we gotta look out for each other, right? 

Jasmine: Absolutely. 

Brittany: Ain’t too many of us, it ain’t too many of us, but you took that good St. Louis fire all the way to Texas where you have been doing some incredible work, um, in the state legislature. And I think you might be familiar to some of our listeners because you were part of the delegation of representatives that left the State House in order to block a proposed voter suppression law.

Tell me about that move. What were you opposing and why did you have to take it that far?

Jasmine: Yeah. You know, what’s so funny is that the Republicans kept saying, oh, y’all are just being dramatic. And people really did not understand how bad things were in the Texas House. And so with me being a freshmen, with me being a civil rights lawyer. 

And with me being the only Black person that was newly elected to the State House, I didn’t understand what was going on. I was like, is this what y’all do every session? Like y’all just violate rights all the time. Constantly making this state not be as great as it should be by turning back the hands of time?

And so what people don’t get is. And maybe they did after the fact, right?  But like there was an attack on reproductive rights. There was an attack on trans children. There were, um, terrible gun laws that they were passing. Like they were doing so many things not to mention as a civil rights lawyer, how hard I fought a bill that actually increased the punishment for protesters from a misdemeanor to a felony. 

And so there were just bad laws everywhere you looked. And no one was really saying anything. It was like, well, this is business as usual. And so for me, I was like, this feels like an abusive relationship. I really feel like we need to stand up, if for nothing else, democracy. 

Like we may not be on the same page on guns or repro or whatever, but can we at least be on the same page as it relates to our democracy itself? And so that was when, it literally was an uprising. A number of us were like, um, we may need to go. And ultimately we did.

Brittany: I’m amazed that people act as though the most fundamental right of being able to have a voice in one’s democracy and the direction of one’s country is being dramatic. Especially, with the fact that some folks call Texas the most difficult place in the country to vote. I mean, during the primaries, we saw some precincts had to close for part of election day because they didn’t have enough poll workers and in the county where Houston is 35% of mail-in ballots we’re rejected, likely because of a new confusing rule about which ID you can use to vote. So, I guess really the question is what is the status of voting access in Texas right now?

Jasmine: We kept saying this is voter suppression. And so you’re right, now ultimately the bill looked a little different when it finally than what they initially tried to do. But still it had plenty of daggers. It was still really awful. As you already stated, Texas already made it harder than any other state to vote. 

And what I kept trying to let people know is just that so long as Texas goes blue, the Republicans never get the White House back.

Like they don’t, there is no map for them. So everyone was invested in making sure that Texas doesn’t start to reflect who they are. Because when you look at the demographics of Texas, our demographics more closely aligned with California than they do Mississippi. Okay. And so with that diversity that we have, you know, 95% of the growth in the state of Texas in the last decade was due to people of color.

That’s what was so scary for them. They also recognize that Trump only won this state by five points. That was a really scary thing for them. And so they decided let’s make it more difficult. 

Brittany: I mean, this moment that the democratic caucus leaves the state is to show how definitely serious you all are about protecting and preserving democracy and protecting marginalized communities.

It’s also part of the reason why we wanted to name this episode “WTF, Texas” because there’s just so much happening there, right? I mean, it’s voting issues, like you said, it’s abortion and reproductive justice. It’s immigration, climate, trans rights, critical race theory, history, education, textbooks, like everything is happening in Texas. 

And the GOP is really using Texas as a battleground in, in the culture war that they want to create and then try to win. Right? And so you’re in the midst of a primary runoff campaign. What has it been like campaigning, especially during this time when Texas is a microcosm of every culture war the GOP is fighting on in every front..

Jasmine: Yeah, so it’s so interesting because you’re right. We left the state, went to DC and so I really have been away from home. Home for me now is Dallas. And so I wasn’t. I wasn’t communicating like face-to-face. Right? Like I wasn’t seeing my people to know, like, do y’all see what’s going on. Because like, when you’re under the pink dome, like you don’t know who’s paying attention.

Most people aren’t streaming the floor. And so as I’ve been out, it has been so encouraging to hear from people, things like thank you for what you’ve done. People are like, we can’t believe as a freshmen, you went down there and you were so bold, but I was like freshman or senior member, I was elected to do a job.

And my job is to represent for my district. 

Brittany: Yeah. I am continuously amazed by the kind of pushback that folks like, you get just trying to do the right thing because of the size of Texas, the history of Texas, the incredible diversity of Texas. If you all can reverse the trend and start to get it right, then you all really have the potential to be a role model in a positive way for the rest of the country.

Jasmine: Oh, absolutely. We absolutely could. I mean, you know, listen, everybody thinks of Texas and they think of oil and gas, right? Most people don’t recognize that we actually lead in wind production, as well. And so, yeah, it’s crazy that in the energy producing state, we couldn’t keep our lights on. No one thinks about Texas potentially being a leader on, on climate, but we absolutely have everything that we need to be a potential leader, even in that space.

Brittany: Let’s talk about teachers for a second. So in December, Texas Republicans passed a law that restricts educator’s ability to talk about what they call critical race theory. We of course know that CRT is not actually what’s being targeted here, but it’s because it’s not generally taught outside of, you know, some law schools, not even all.

But this legislation is actually going to stifle the teaching of history in this country about enslavement, about racism, about queer folks, about the contradictions that were present at the founding of this country. I want to read a quote from the new law. It says “a teacher may not be compelled to discuss a widely debated and currently controversial issue of public policy or social affairs”. 

So it just has the potential to restrict a huge range of learning that can be defined after the fact, like if a school decides slavery is controversial, you know, a teacher can just toss it out. Is that what we’re really talking about? I just, I want to know your thoughts on this and what the, what the ramifications of a law like this have for future generations of Texans.

Jasmine: No, you’re, listen, you hit the nail on the head. Part of what they’re doing with these laws is they are leaving them very wide and ambiguous, so that whomever wants to do whatever, um, they are allowed to do it. Right? So, and by that, I mean that the enforcement piece of this is left up to whomever to say, well, I don’t like you talking about that.

I remember when the law first passed about critical race theory, most people, first of all, it’s not critical race theory. I just want to put that out there. 

Brittany: Hello.

Jasmine: I just want to put it out there. It is the umbrella of what they’re calling it, but let me talk about what the law actually does beyond even what you just mentioned.

You know, this law actually takes away the ability of students to receive credit for, say working in my legislative office, which I had 26 interns, um, they’re not allowed to do that. We had EMTs that were very upset by this law because now those students that would have been earning credits for trying to work towards getting certified as an EMT, they’re not able to do that either because of the way that this law written.

None of this has anything to do with critical race theory. So I do want to be clear that this law does so many other things that literally have nothing to do with race, but on top of that, we’re experiencing a teacher shortage.

Imagine that, right? Like they just can’t do the job because they can’t survive or they’re doing the job and they’re trying to survive, but they’re constantly having to take their money and pour it in to make sure that their students have they need, right? So we were already having problems, right?

Like already a multitude of problems. And now you’ve decided that you want to tie their hands and you don’t want them to actually teach.Those teachers that care about that part., those are the ones that are like, I’m done because that’s not why I came to do this in the first place. And to threaten them with potential incarceration or fines and things like that.

I mean, you are, you’re making it impossible. And literally the governor the other day, maybe like a week or two ago, put something out about the teacher shortage. Well, duh, like it, because it’s even worse now. Like people are like, forget it. Like we’re good. Like we don’t wanna deal with that. 

Brittany: Going back to voter suppression for a second.

When we talk about the most disenfranchised voters, we’re talking about your constituents currently, your future constituents potentially. Um, because we’re talking about Black voters, I’m curious, what’s at stake for Black voters in Texas, even beyond voter suppression. Um, in the 2022 general elections in the fall.

Jasmine: Yeah. I mean, what I’m probably most perturbed about besides just kind of the voter suppression really is everything that happens when it came down to redistricting, uh, that truly silenced us.  That was the point and they got it done. Right? As I mentioned before, 95% of the growth was due to people of color, yet when we got the two new seats that were earned because the state of Texas did grow, I think we added about 4 million people in the last decade.

And so with that growth though, they decided that the two new seats were going to go to Anglo majorities. And if this is what your state officials do with you and did it boldly unabashedly. So imagine what they do when no one’s paying attention. Right? And so, you know, for me, the stakes are so high because we are talking about so many equity issues.

I talked about education. Was there a disproportionate effect on Black and Brown students? There, there absolutely was. Right? Um, these schools already were behind. They already were even more underfunded than some of our other schools. Even when we talk about repro rights, when we look at who is disproportionately affected in a negative way, it is going to be Black and Brown women.

Right. And so what we’re looking at is more policies along the lines of what we got. 

Brittany: Yeah. I, I do want to end on a hopeful note. What do you think, uh, Texas has to offer other states by way of example? Uh, what do you think Texas has the potential to really be a leader on? 

Jasmine: So definitely I think we have the potential to be a leader in the green space.

I mean, when you look in Texas, the reason for our growth has been that we’ve been able to attract so many businesses. Now, granted, they don’t want those people say from Tesla in California to participate in the electoral process. Right? But we were able to attract Tesla 

When it comes to technology overall, Austin is one of our huge leaders. And then I had an opportunity to sit down and have dinner with the ambassador from Taiwan just this last week. And so I also was able to learn about some of the Taiwanese companies that are right here in Texas. So let’s get smart about who we trade with. So it’s those kinds of things that we really could be doing better on.

And I think Texas can lead the way on those things. 

Brittany: Jasmine, I always appreciate talking to you and thanks for all that you are doing, Not just for Texas, but to drive all of us forward.

Jasmine: Absolutely. Thank you so much.

Brittany: Jasmine Crockett is a civil rights attorney and a candidate for Congress in Texas’ 30th district.

Treasure: This whole episode, we’ve been talking about the ways in which Texas has been a testing ground for repressive policies and laws and the ways in which it could be leading instead. Now we turn to Beto O’Rourke. He’s run races up and down the Lone Star State. He served in Congress, nearly beat Ted Cruz for a Senate seat, threw his hat in the ring for the presidency in 2020, and is now running to unseat Texas Governor Greg Abbott.

Abbott has become a national figure for his cruel policies on trans children, reproductive rights and more. Beto was hoping to reverse those injustices. Brittany sat down with him to hear more.

Brittany: So I guess the real question for starters is like, why governor and why right now?

Beto: Texas is a state whose governor has prohibited women from making their own reproductive health care.

Texas is a state whose governor is pursuing the families of transgender children at a time that we actually have a real crisis within child protective services, 30,000 kids in the foster care system. Texas is a state that, that literally could not keep the lights on. When temperatures dropped last year and more than 700 Texans lost their lives during that time.

So there’s a lot of bad things going on, but there are also a lot of great things that we could do for one another. Namely, focusing on the things that bring us together at a moment that Texas, as well as the country has never been more divided or more polarized.

Brittany: Are there specific lessons from these last two runs that you feel like will benefit the people of the people of Texas this time around, especially, I mean, to your point with just so much on the line. 

Beto: It’s all about people. And as long as that is the focus, the, the people of Texas, by whom, with whom and for whom we are doing this, we’re going to win.

And we’re not only going to win, we’re going to be able to get this state on the right track. And that was a huge lesson learned from 2018 that we didn’t defeat Ted Cruz. We really transformed the electorate of the state of Texas. You had young voter turnout up over 500%. You helped to flip control of the United States Congress because we helped elect new Democrats, replacing Republicans there. 

12 new democratic state legislators, 17 African-American women elected to judgeships in Harris County alone. It was extraordinary, Brittany; and it was all made possible by the people who reached out and connected with their fellow Texans. They decided their own future, our own future together.

Brittany: Yeah. I mean, you can hear it just like coming out of your pores, how much you love Texas. I like Texas too. Right? I’ve been, I’ve been all over the state. San Antonio, Austin, Dallas, Houston. I haven’t been to your beloved El Paso, hopefully very soon, 

Beto: We’re waiting. We’re waiting.

Brittany: But sometimes, I’m like does Texas like me, right? Because from where I sit, I keep watching Texas be the sort of testing ground for pretty much every culture war facing the country.

You’ve talked about, a bit of it, abortion, critical race theory, trans rights, immigration, the climate. So much of it seems to start in and center on Texas and then other states will follow suit in some of the worst ways possible. Why has the GOP been using Texas as, as a ground zero of sorts?

Beto: Yeah. You’re so right.

And everything you enumerated, um, is right on the money. And I would add to that our gun laws, or I guess, lack thereof have produced, uh, one of the worst situations for any people in any state in terms of the level of gun violence. All of that producing, obviously, more gun violence today. So your, your very excellent question is why in the world is all this happening and is that reflective of who we are in the state of Texas? I think this is all a result of more than 30 years of nearly unilateral Republican control of the state.

Um, a Republican majority and Republican governor that have severely constrained the electorate, like literally functionally disenfranchising millions of Texans. Brittany, in 2020, obviously the most consequential presidential election of our lifetimes, 7 million eligible Texans did not cast a ballot. And it’s not because they’re lazy.

It’s not because they don’t love democracy. It is because we’ve literally drawn our elections in such a way that we disempower voters, primarily voters of color, young voters, very old voters, voters with, um, hardships and disabilities and make it harder than in any other state for them to participate in their own democracy.

But you’re also right that what happens in Texas does not just stay in. This fever dream of radical fringe extremism is being exported to the rest of the country. And so what happens in Texas is of critical interest to anyone anywhere across the United States of America. But my bet and the bet being placed by the people in this campaign is on the people of Texas, because our government is not who we are.

Certainly not right now. And I’m convinced that if enough of us register, turnout, and vote, we’re going to see a Texas that’s far more reflective of who we really are at our best, focusing on the big things that bring us together and rejecting these radical policies and the culture war stuff, and people trying to make you afraid of others in your own community.

Finding a way to bring us back together again, and represent with pride, who we really are. 

Brittany: I mean, we’re talking about your vision for Texas. But we still gotta, you still gotta get elected first, right? Like this is, this is the work of right now. How do you sway conservative voters who believe flat out that the establishment or anyone who doesn’t agree with them is lying.

And also progressive voters who may have justifiably lost faith in the system or the establishment ability to execute on the things that matter, I mean, is, is bringing those two groups together, even part of your strategy?

Beto: It’s not as impossible as many might think. I have found as I’ve traveled the state and listened to the people of Texas, that there’s a lot more that we hold in common than would otherwise separate or divide us.

So Brittany, this last week I spent in some of the smallest and most rural and some would say reddest counties in the state of Texas. And as you know, Brittany, one of the, uh, one of the things I talk a lot about on the road is the need to end the prohibition of marijuana. To make it legal and to expunge the arrest records of anybody who was caught in possession of a substance that’s legal, and most of the rest of the country.We were in this town only, and this guy approaches me at the end of the meeting and he’s a Republican, he’s a barber.

And he says, I’m the only barber in 50 miles. And he said, you would not imagine the hoops through which I have to jump to get my license, just to cut people’s hair in this community. And he said a lot of that has to do with the fact that in 1970, more than 50 years ago, I was arrested for possession of marijuana.

And now anytime I’m trying to get a loan Anytime I’m trying to get certified for anything, anytime I’m trying to get a license for anything, I’ve got to check a box saying that I’ve got that conviction. So here was another guy, a Republican in a rural community who said, hey, this guy Beto is talking about my life.

And what’s important to me. 

Brittany: When you talk about going to some of these places, a progressive politician is going to have a very different experience than a politician in, say, a solidly blue state might talking about some of those issues that are not the bread and butter issues. Right? So conversations about critical race theory or the teaching of accurate history. Is there less opportunity to get into nuance and kind of more table setting that has to be done to get everyone on the same page?

Or is there a, a particular approach that you take to having those conversations? 

Beto: It’s such a, it’s such a thoughtful question. Yes. I mean, this is an issue that demands thoughtfulness. And yet we are in an age where, you know, you say anything beyond 30 seconds. I don’t know if people are still paying attention afterwards.

And it’s why these attacks from the right on socialism on, um, you know, policing and crime on, uh, You know, CRT are so damn effective because they don’t require much thought. They require an instinctual emotional response based in fear. And so it’s interesting, I just got this question about fully learning and understanding our history and our story.

And I said, look, El Paso of all cities in the state of Texas has so much damn amazing history that we are proud of, that we should make sure that we teach. And I talked about Thelma White who in 1954, graduated from the all Black, uh, high school in El Paso because it was the only school she was allowed to attend, try to enroll at Texas Western College. Was rejected because of her race.

Then, uh, employed Thurgood Marshall and along with the NAACP, uh, fought the segregation in public higher ed in Texas and won the battle and was able to integrate all higher ed in Texas. She was 18 years old. She had just graduated from high school and I said, listen, if Thelma White in ‘54 was strong enough to lead that battle and just absolutely change what was possible in Texas. 

Then our kids certainly are strong enough to learn her story. And so let’s stand up for ourselves at this moment and let’s acknowledge that part of what makes us so great as a country is our ability to learn our history. And part of what has made this such a challenging time is a rejection of history and understanding people’s stories and the full, true story of this country.

We’re never gonna make it. We’re never going to get better if we don’t take the time to listen and learn. So we’re strong enough for this. So yeah, it’s a conversation we need to have. And when we lay out the facts and when we speak with pride about who we are, even in learning the things that are really difficult and even sometimes shameful, I think we’re going to find that there’s a majority there who wants to do the right thing.

Brittany: Uh, before I let you go, I have to ask, what do you hope will be true about Texas, say like ten years from now, right? Where does your, your political imagination take you in terms of what’s possible for your home state? 

Beto: You know, right now, at least in our political leadership, we really seem to be defined by fear.

You have a governor echoing the former president who warns of invasions of people coming here from other countries. You’ve got a governor who wants to scare you about transgender kids, and in fact has criminalized those families. This outline of abortion in the epicenter of a maternal mortality crisis that is three times as deadly for Black women. 

This is not making us better. This is certainly not bringing us together. And this is absolutely unreflective of who we are, certainly who we are at our best. So here’s what I hope for. And here’s what I think we’re going to be able to make happen in the state of Texas. 

A state that is defined not by its fears, but by its ambitions and the aspirations of its people, a state that wants to lead in every category for the best reasons, the kinds of jobs that we’re creating, our ability to expand our energy leadership beyond just oil and gas to the renewable energy resources that make us energy independent from the rest of the world and allow us to confront a climate disaster before it’s too late. 

A state that realizes this country’s foundational aspirations. Like the fact that all of us should be treated equally under the law.

We’re nowhere close to that yet, but we can be, I would love Texas to take the lead in this regard,  I want this state to be defined by its great size and a reminder that we are big enough for all of us and for our dreams and for the hard work that it takes to bring those dreams to pass. So I think there’s so much to be excited for, uh, in, in our future here in Texas, but we have to do the work now to make sure that we can realize it. 

Brittany: Thanks for everything that you’re doing as you crisscrossed the state and talk about not just your vision for what Texas can be and what America can be, but all of the many ways that you are employing the imagination of the people to get you there. I appreciate you.

Beto: I’m really, really, really grateful to you. And not just for this opportunity to talk with you over the course of this interview, but just over the years, everything that you helped me to understand and to learn. And thank you again for letting me join you on this, on this show today,

Brittany: Beto O’Rourke is a candidate for governor in Texas. In his attempt to unseat Senator Ted Cruz, he set the record for most votes ever cast for a Democrat in a Texas midterm election.

Beto is so right. So much about our political leadership is defined by fear. If fear is dangerous for a lot of reasons, but mostly because it feeds on itself. If you can be made to be afraid of people different from you, instead of feeling bonded to them, tied to them, then you can be divided. And if you can be successfully divided, then it’s easier to ignore or even support policies that deepen those divisions. 

And when the deep divisions are protected by statute, the powerful get even more and the rest of us get shit. And it really is all the rest of us because in the end, if they can come for trans rights and abortion rights and voting rights and school curriculum, then they can come for you, too. If you think you are protected from the people who want to steer the ship to turn a profit for themselves.

You are sorely mistaken. To those powerful forces, we are all expendable. The path forward has to be lit with the leadership of a new era of politicians who aren’t concerned with profit with people. Beto, Jasmine, Jessica— they’re vying to be those kinds of leaders. The kind that gives people hope, which is the only thing that can drive out fear.

So I’ll be watching Texas all year long and I hope you do too, because what happens there matters. I’ll be rooting for hope. 

That’s it for today, but never for tomorrow.

 

UNDISTRACTED is a production of The Meteor and Pineapple Street Studios. 

Treasure Brooks is our correspondent.

Our lead producer is Rachel Ward.

Our associate producers are Alexis Moore and Marialexa Kavenaugh.

Thanks also to Hannis Brown, Davy Sumner, and Raj Makhija.

Our executive producers at The Meteor are Cindi Leive and myself, and our executive producers at Pineapple are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Max Linsky.  

You can follow me at @MsPackyetti on all social media and our incredible team @TheMeteor.

Subscribe to UNDISTRACTED and rate and review us on Apple podcasts or most places you find your favorite podcasts. 

Thanks for listening. Thanks for being. And thanks for doing.  I’m Brittany Packnett Cunningham.

Let’s go get free.

LEARN MORE ABOUT UNDISTRACTED

UNDISTRACTED: May 5, 2022

What Happens Now? Gloria Steinem and Renee Bracey Sherman on the Future of Abortion

Please note: This transcript has been automatically generated.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Hey, y’all it’s Brittany. Now, you know, I’m on parental leave, which has been such an incredible joy. A bit of a sleepless joy. But listen, every time I look in baby M’s eyes and I watch these bright beautiful eyes of his just discover the world for the first time. I know everything is going to be okay. And I need that reminder because as the world keeps turning, rough things keep happening.

Something happened this week. Y’all know what happened this week, and I knew we needed to talk about it. So I wanted to pop back in for a second. Late Monday night, while we all thought we were just going to be watching pretty dresses on the Met Gala red carpet, Politico published a document that had been leaked from the Supreme court.

The draft of an opinion showing the court is planning on overturning Roe v. Wade. They took a preliminary vote and it looks like this is the direction things are moving in. Now I want to be clear. Abortion is still legal. If you have an appointment for reproductive care, you can keep it. This is just a draft, but I have to tell you how I felt when I read that news alert.

Like a lot of you, I felt unsurprised and still absolutely enraged. And in particular, I felt the fire of a thousand generations past rising up in me. When I read these words from Justice Alito in the draft. And while some rights are quote “Not mentioned in the Constitution, any such rights must be deeply rooted in the nation’s history and tradition.”

Y’all know what other rights aren’t deeply rooted in the nation’s history and tradition, right? Of course you do. Like, you know, I don’t know, marriage equality. Women and Black folks voting. Indigenous personhood, access to birth control, integrated schools. Hell, I would be three-fifths of a person as far as our history and tradition is concerned.

And that’s exactly why he’s saying it this way. And Justice Alito and his little friends, they know that. This is all purposeful. This kind of constitutional originalism is just code for white supremacist patriarchy. And this has been their plan for literal decades. To come for all of us. You know, when the religious right lost their battle to keep schools segregated years later, they picked abortion as their favorite little wedge issue.

I mean, what the hell is a human right if it can just be washed away with the stroke of a white dude’s pen and a few votes, mostly from dudes. But here’s the thing, and there is a thing. Organizers and activists, advocates have been warning us of this for years. And I, for one, have been listening, I knew it was going to rain.

So, I pack an umbrella. We’ve been talking about abortion at UNDISTRACTED since day one. On purpose. And last December, we had a very special conversation on this issue that really, really moved me. I’ve been revisiting that episode for the last few days to pull strength and inspiration and, and most importantly action.

So, I wanted to share some of that with you too. And I hope that it does the same for you because y’all we need all the strength we can get right now. Despair is tempting, but it’s not an option. When we choose despair, the opposition wins. But we are UNDISTRACTED.

Back in December of last year, the Supreme Court heard arguments in Dobbs vs Jackson Women’s Health Organization. And a few days later, reproductive justice activist Renee Bracey Sherman was on the steps of the Supreme Court rallying thousands of people in support of Roe. The speakers told their abortion stories, making very clear what the stakes would be if the courts ruled against Jackson Women’s Health and overturn Roe v. Wade.

Ayanna Pressley: These policies are intended to trap the most marginalized in systems of oppression and poverty. None of this is by happenstance.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Today, thanks to what we now know about the Supreme Court’s plans, none of this is hypothetical. Sometimes they do you a favor when the opposition tells you their plans, we know this is real, and that makes the conversation I had at the end of last year with Renee and Gloria Steinem even more salient. 

Gloria Steinem, of course, is a journalist and activist. An absolute legend who’s been at campaigning for reproductive freedom for more than half a century.  In 1972, she and 52 other women published an open letter in Ms. magazine titled “We have had Abortions”. And Renee Bracey Sherman is a legend in the making. She’s also known as the Beyoncé of abortion storytelling. We’ll get into why in a minute. 

She’s the founder of the organization We Testify, which is dedicated to shifting people of color, queer, and young voices to the forefront when it comes to conversations about abortion. Here’s the conversation we had last December when the case was first.

Gloria, it’s 1972, almost 50 years ago, exactly. and you and 52 other women publish that now famous open letter in the first ever issue of Ms. magazine, titled “We have had Abortions”. Put us back in that place. Can you tell me a little bit about the choice to write that manifesto?

Gloria Steinem: A lot of us doing that manifesto had probably already learned in our lives that telling our stories was the most powerful thing we could do.

You know, there’s the saying of telling me a fact and I’ll forget, tell me a story and I’ll always remember. It also made into a coherent group, people who might’ve felt isolated before. I mean, there’s nothing more important as a starter than being honest about our stories, telling our stories and sharing it with other people.

But within the magazine was an outgrowth of that because obviously we couldn’t print everybody’s stories. But we could at least offer to print everyone’s names, which of course was brave of them to do at that point, because it was still illegal. And we were inspired by Simone de Beauvoir who Uh, done this in France and inspired a whole, uh, you know, hundreds, if not thousands of women to sign.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Sure. And so the context of this, like you said, is incredibly dangerous. Tell us a little bit more about what the abortion landscape was in the moment that you are responding to it with this, with this powerful open letter. 

Gloria Steinem: At that point, it varied from state to state, but it was mostly illegal. And the names of doctors who would do this safely were passed around like very precious secrets and we helped each other to find transportation and safety and accompany each other, you know?

I mean, it’s so crazy when you think about it, because actually our bodies and controlling our own bodies, male and female, is the basis of democracy. If we’re missing one thing, it’s the rock bottom statement. If we don’t have power to decide the fate of our own bodies, there is no democracy. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: That is the rock bottom statement.

So this article in Ms. magazine, it certainly creates a storm of controversy, but it also creates a great deal of awareness that helps put on pressure for those folks in those marble buildings. And the next year, the court rules on Roe v. Wade and makes the right to access an abortion legal. And then later you write about your own abortion in England in 1957, when you were just 22 years old, you dedicated your book, My Life on the Road, to Dr. John Sharpe of London. One of those secret names that was written on the piece of paper passed around, who helped you obtain that abortion. It’s so powerful because you’re putting yourself in the middle of that story. 

Gloria Steinem: Well, I think that’s why our stories, whoever we are, you know, are the most powerful forces we have because they connect at a human level.

They show the wide variety of circumstance and people involved. But here’s what is not happening as far as I can see. To the extent that I wander around on campus and look at textbooks and so on. And that is that when we talk about democracy, we don’t start out by talking about the power to make decisions over our own physical selves.

And this concerns men too, you know, there have been cases of men being threatened with, or forcibly sterilized, for instance, as a form of punishment. So, you know, we can unify on this, even though it probably happens more often to women. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah, and the way that you’re reframing this story brings me actually to you Renee.

Right? If we flash forward to this moment, you’ve worked with thousands and thousands of people around the world who share their abortion stories. I mean, I got to ask, how did you wind up becoming known as the Beyoncé of abortion storytelling? Like that is quite a title. 

Renee Bracey Sherman: Well, thank you. Um, a friend was doted on me.

It was actually shortly after, uh, Coachella, and there was a tweet. I don’t know if you remember, but someone said, whatever you do, be the Beyoncé of what you do. And so someone said, oh, you’re the Beyoncé of abortion storytelling, because you think about like the way in which Beyoncé uses her art to shift the conversation, to get people to think differently about Black folks, Black women, Black bodies. 

How do you use the talents that you have to get people to think differently about your people? Right? And so my people, obviously, as a Black woman are other Black women. But our queer and trans people, like right, there, like folks of color. But particularly my people are people who have abortions and we are people who, there are a lot of stories told about us.

There’s a lot of myths. Um, a lot of really nasty stereotypes about us that are not true. And so we are taking our voice and saying, actually this is on our own terms, right. Because I think there are a lot of ways people try to defend abortion access by stigmatizing us and saying it’s only 3% of services or nobody really wants an abortion, or, well, you don’t want to have too many or people regret their abortions, or it’s a hard decision.

All of those things, actually, all of those messages are born out of anti-abortion stigma or things that are made up by the anti-abortion movement. And so we are claiming our own power, reclaiming our stories, talking about them and actually to pay homage to the Ms. magazine spread. We thought about what would it look like to do something similar and make our voices heard at the Supreme Court.

So we did an amicus brief with our abortion stories and had people who’ve had abortions sign on to say, no, we  had abortions. This impacts our lives. And we only had it out there for a week. We weren’t even sure how many people would sign on. And it turned out to be 6,641 people saying we had abortions. We will be heard.

And this Supreme Court, if you’re going to overturn Roe V. Wade, look at us in our eyes. As you do it, you have to read every single one of our names.

Gloria Steinem: Listening to you. It gives me hope because it makes clear to me how contagious stories are. Because this started, when we at Ms. magazine all that time of ago, before you were born, listen to the stories collected by Simone de Beauvoir.

You know, the sign petition that they did and we did our sign petition. So, it’s the contagion of action. It’s the contagion of telling the truth. 

Renee Bracey Sherman: Absolutely. And honestly, that is how I got into this work, right. Because someone shared their abortion story with me and I was like, wow, I’m not alone. And I had my abortion.

The only people I knew of who had had abortions were one of my cousins and the rapper, Lil’ Kim. I swear, I didn’t know. Aside from Lil’ Kim, I didn’t know any Black folks who had abortions. But at the rally. I got to give flowers to my mother. Who didn’t tell me until I’d been doing this work for four years, that she’d had an abortion before me and her abortion made my life possible.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Did she tell you why she decided to finally share that and sign onto this brief alongside you and all of these other people? 

Renee Bracey Sherman: Yeah. I mean, I had asked a couple of times in the past, but she was kind of like, well, I don’t need to talk about it. That’s something you do. And you know, didn’t really want to talk about it that much.

It was just, she was like, I don’t even think about it. She said, I didn’t really think about it until you started doing this work. But when I finally asked her again, she said, well, I’m so sick of this shit. It’s just kinda, my mom does not cuss. And she was just like, I’m so sick of it, you know? And she was also like, at this point, what does anybody going to say to me?

There’s nothing you did say to me, that’s going to hurt me for the decision that I made, because I also have, you know, three children, two by birth and one by adoption. And this is how my family is created. And I’m unapologetic about it. And it was really beautiful as I was working through the names to put in the amicus brief, I was going through all 6,641 names and to see not only mine and my mother’s, but also my cousins and my aunts, just so many people in my family.

And just this reminder that our families are made by abortion. 

Gloria Steinem: It’s wonderful that you personalize and universalize at the same time, because I think that’s exactly what this issue does for us. It’s also a source of humor. Flo Kennedy, my oldest speaking partner always said that if men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.

Renee Bracey Sherman: I will say one thing I do want to push is that, um, and what was beautiful about the rally is that we did have trans men sharing their abortion stories. And I think we are pushing this conversation in which we’re having a larger conversation about gender and gender expansiveness and who has abortions.

But also I have been happy to see more cis-gender men actually saying, yeah, my life has made possible by abortion, too. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: I mean, I’m looking back at the letter in 1972 right now, Gloria, and you wrote: To many American women and men, it seems absurd in this allegedly enlightened age, that we should still be arguing for a simple principle that a woman has the right to sovereignty over their own body.

And I really had to like wipe my eyes and make sure I was reading it correctly because you could have written that right now. 

Gloria Steinem: As you say that I’m thinking about myself before, when I wrote that and realizing I should have known. However, I was not taught this in any of my college school or high school courses.

I should have known that the beginning of patriarchy, of which was not that long ago in this country, it depends on which part of the world you are. Was the source of these restrictions that they had not existed before. So this is, is not a new struggle. It’s a struggle against a backlash against an old human right.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Um, so perhaps it’s that we’re still here because, um, the backlash to the freedoms that we want is always promised. It will keep coming back. 

Gloria Steinem: Well, and we still have a patriarchal racist kind of outlook.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Heteronormative. 

Gloria Steinem: Yeah. I mean, in theory, we’re a democracy. And we’ve moved toward it, but we’re not there yet.

Renee Bracey Sherman: Well, and I would say the reason we haven’t conquered is because we haven’t conquered white supremacy. Right? I’m working on a book with a colleague of mine, Regina Mahone and it’s called Countering Abortion Planning. And it’s all about people of color’s experiences with abortion. And if you actually look at the ebbs and flows of abortion restrictions in history, they actually tie right with Black liberation throughout history. Right? 

The first restrictions came in the 1860s. Well guess what was happening in the 1860s, Black folks were getting. And it was to push Black midwives out of the labor sector. Right? And to put American gynecology, white men on the map. And so then of course, criminalization was happening.

A lot of raids happened in the 1920s and 30s. And then of course in the 50s, 60s. And then again, once abortion was legalized. Right? The anti-abortion movement, they had been organizing around segregation and they could no longer do that. And they started to pick another issue. Right? And so what they wanted to be able to do was go along those same Jim Crow lines and push back against the changing gender norms of the feminist movement.

Um, you remember, righ?. But also of course, against the civil rights movement and as Black people, were able to be more liberated, have more freedom within society. Because here’s the thing, we’ve always had in this nation and around the world, subjugation of Black and Brown peoples’ fertility. It was all of a sudden, right, once it was no longer for-profit then it became a problem. 

Gloria Steinem: And once again, I think we learned that from stories. I mean, I learned that I didn’t know, half a century ago from Fannie Lou Hamer. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Exactly.

Gloria Steinem: Who was encouraged to have children, even if she didn’t want them because they were underpaid field hands.

And once there were mechanized ways of doing that field work and she went into the hospital for something else entirely, I think an appendicitis, she was sterilized without her knowledge. So, you know, it’s controlling the means of reproduction in whatever direction it goes. And that happens to be us.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Um, that was the first part of my conversation with Gloria Steinem and Renee Bracey Sherman. Coming up, they talk about the cost of excluding women of color from the abortion rights movement and where we go from here, right after this short break. 

And we are back. This is really getting into the meat of what I wanted to talk about, because we are really connecting the dots on how anti-blackness led to this anti-abortion movement.

But I also want to talk a little bit about what life has been inside the movement, right? Because now we getting into this intersectionality conversation, then that’s where I’m like, let’s dig in. Okay. Because you know, Renee, historically we have seen a pro-choice movement, however you want to characterize it, historically and in some ways currently fail to fully include women of color. What has been the cost of excluding Black and Brown women from so many of these spaces? 

Renee Bracey Sherman: There’s so much of a cost. We can just talk about the brilliance that we lose in this movement, because folks are pushed out because we simply are unwilling to put up with the racist microaggressions within our movement, but that’s on a, on a more granular scale. Right?  

But then that ends up looking like huge mishaps when it comes to policy shift. In her book, Life on the Line, Faye Wattleton, uh, she was the first Black president of Planned Parenthood. She talks about how, as soon as they put through the Hyde Amendment, she wanted to fight it. But a lot of the leaders, mostly white, at Planned Parenthood pushed back and said no.

So, we lost Roe back when we didn’t make sure that everyone had access to abortion at any time, if, for any reason, particularly Black and Brown folks, particularly young people. And I think that then means that we’re not actually making sure people have access to the healthcare that they need, that really fits the circumstances of their lives.

It also means that reproductive justice as a movement, right? The movement to ensure that everybody has the ability to decide if when and how they grow their family, and also raise their family free from. state sanctioned violence and oppression. That’s been around for 25 years, but it’s only sort of now becoming more mainstream.

And honestly, I think it’s really frustrating to see some of it being watered down as just like, oh, it’s just the term. It’s not actually looking at what does it mean to us if somebody is a pro-choice champion, but then doesn’t do anything to expand with benefits or Snap benefits. Right? What does it mean for somebody to say that they support abortion access, but aren’t making sure that the ICE detention centers aren’t sterilizing folks. That they’re okay with folks being in cages to begin with, it needs to be a larger conversation. And I’ve definitely had many conversations with some of my colleagues, particularly white women in the pro-choice movement who are like, well, when we talk about stuff like that, that’s that’s mission creep or that that’s something else. That’s not what we’re working on. 

I’m confused as to how you can say that you’re going to argue to make sure that somebody has access to abortion, but not make sure that they got diapers for the kids that they’re raising. I’m confused as to how you can sit here and say that you’re making sure somebody has access to an abortion, but you’re not going to do anything about the fact that, you know, they smoke a little weed and then they get thrown in jail because they’re pregnant. Right? 

As professor Michele Goodwin talks about in her book Policing the Womb, when the pro-choice movement failed to stand up for Black folks during the so-called crack baby epidemic and they were throwing Black mamas in jail. That was a personhood issue, right? That was a reproductive issue. That was making sure people were able to not be thrown in jail simply for, you know, the consequences of being pregnant. Right? 

But when the movement failed to show up for that, that again was when we should have had the conversation about personhood and we did not. And so, again, We now have a way in which we have a system that criminalizes Black and Brown people. And so I, you know, I know like white women love to up high in about, oh my God, we’re getting to The Handmaid’s Tale and all this stuff.

Well guess what, Black and Brown folks have been prosecuted for their pregnancies for a long time. There are folks sitting in jail right now on suspicion of miscarriage or for using drugs while pregnant. And so you can’t have a one track mind. And so, when Black and Brown folks weren’t given space and the leadership were pushed out of our movement.

That is what we lost. And so that is how we end up with tons of pregnant folks in jail, families separated because it’s considered a sensitive issue.

Gloria Steinem: And then we also lose the majority of the movement because, you know, because in fact, I mean, from 1970 forward, I think 1970 was the first time that there was ever a serious national poll about the women’s liberation movement and its goals and so on, and so on. 

It’s been something like 70 something percent supported by women of color and only 50 something percent by white women. So, you know, that makes no sense. I mean, if we’re in a democracy that should mean that most of the leadership is elected by women of color.

Renee Bracey Sherman: Right. And not just giving us the reins to take over as things are falling apart, which is sort of what’s happening right now. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Come save us. 

Renee Bracey Sherman: Yeah, and I have to be honest. 

Gloria Steinem: That’s interesting. So tell me what makes you feel, I mean, in your heart that things are falling apart? 

Renee Bracey Sherman: Well, I think what’s feeling frustrating, there was a lot of work that a lot of folks of color put into the rally that we had and to change the narrative. Right? And I wonder what it would look like if organizations like mine and the Black and Brown leaders had been funded at the level that white-led organizations are funded at 10 years ago. Right? 

Like my organization is only like $300,000. Meanwhile, there are other organizations that are $20, $30, $45, $450 million organizations. Like we only get pulled in at the very end. The movement would look so different if we were actually given the tools because you can put me on TV as much as you want, but if you don’t actually give me a budget to be able to organize, it’s actually just tokenizing. And that is, I think, what happened. 

Gloria Steinem: We should have a separate discussion  on fundraising, right? 

Renee Bracey Sherman: Yeah. That’s a mess. I would like to say what’s hard is that, you know, as you were saying, like in the women’s liberation movement, like there were women of color, but I think what’s challenging. And we even see this today. When I go look at photos that folks take of the rallies, there are tons of people of color. But if a journalist only takes a photo of a white woman in a Handmaid’s outfit or of white people. It erases us from being there. 

And so one of the projects that we have done in my organization We Testify, is actually to give media outlets photos of Black and Brown folks who have abortions, so that we are not erased from this work. Because we need to be able to document that we were there.

And you will not tell us that we weren’t. And I think that is one of the things that feels very, very challenging when I look at this. 

Gloria Steinem: That’s very important. I’m very glad that you’re doing that because this has been a problem with mainstream media, at least from the beginning. The very first March that I’m aware of anyway, was down Fifth Avenue in 1970, I think.

And the next day, The New York Times published a piece saying, oh, it looks like the country and emphasizing how diverse it was and how, you know. And then a few days after that, both Time and Newsweek put only white women on the cover. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: And of course the journalists are writing the first draft of history, right? So, if they don’t get it then, right then, it’s a lot more difficult to get it later on. And I, and I want to come at this question a slightly different way, Gloria with you, because you are a white woman and you’ve been doing the work around reproductive freedom for a long time while we know the same conversations that we’re having now, that Renee is having now. These same pleas that Renee’s making now have been being made for a long time. So really the question is, what is the responsibility of white cis-gender women in leveraging what privileged there is? Right? We know that one of them is fundraising. Right? What else is, is the work for white women to do?

Gloria Steinem: Well, at the simplest level, I would say when you have a meeting about a particular issue or when you’re starting a group to address something, make sure that the group that’s meeting looks like the group that is affected. And just don’t do anything until the group is more generally representative. People will say, in my experience, people will say, well, you know, we’ll start and then we’ll, you know, diversify later. And I always say, no, you can’t do that. I mean, because the people who start something own it in a certain way. So you have to wait until the group looks like the country or the group you’re serving, 

Renee Bracey Sherman: Right. Like you have to put butter in the pie crust to begin with, you can’t just add it on top. It has to be baked in. It’s just that simple. And I think it says everything about your intentions. Again, one of the things that felt really important to me when I started We Testify. Um, we have 90, over 90 storytellers that we work with. Ninety percent of whom are Black and Brown folks because the majority of people have abortions are people of color.

We have a number of whom are queer and trans, and that’s from the beginning. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: So, here we are in this moment that feels dismal for so many people. Renee, you are right to remind us that it has been dismal for a lot of people for a long time. And the stakes are incredibly high. And this is a question really for you both.

Do you ever think, Gloria and then Renee, about what direction your life would have gone in if you were not able to access an abortion? 

Gloria Steinem: I do. It’s hard for me to imagine. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: I’m so sorry. Can I, can I just pause for a second, Renee? Hi. Hi. How are you doing? 

Renee Bracey Sherman: I’m okay. Go ahead, Gloria.

Gloria Steinem: I think tears come from. I so wish I could give you a hug.

Renee Bracey Sherman: It’s been really hard. I feel like as a leader in this movement, we have to be stoic all the time. And I’ve been having a really hard time the last couple of days, because. I just, I mean, I’m in my home and I just look around at everything in my life, all my friends, everything, and what I would not have if I was not able to get the abortion.

And I mean, according to the turn away study, I would have, you know, grown to love the child that I had, but like, that’s not the life that I wanted. And I think what feels really painful is that I do work with some storytellers who’ve had abortions, but also were unable to get abortions. And not only, you know, obviously they love their children, but like, they also talk about how difficult their pregnancies were.

The anti-abortion movement is kind of like, well, you just have a kid. They don’t talk about is that, you know, people have postpartum depression. Like pregnancy, can it shifts literal bones and organs in your body, right? And so to have to be forced to go through that is really, really difficult. And then of course this nation won’t bother to give us paid leave. Won’t bother to do anything.

And so I’m just so thankful that I was able to have my abortiong. In my heart all the time, just breaks knowing that, you know, there are people who are becoming pregnant right now, not knowing, right? And not knowing if they’re going to be able to access care. I’ve supported people who are self-managed their abortions because they, they are like, I need access.

It’s just truly, truly scary that this is something I think people are taking for granted. I had somebody text me today and say, well, do you think they’re really going to overturn it? And I was like, yes, yes, this is real. This is very scary. And I, my heart just feels for those people who I get messages from, you know, my email or on our website of just, they’re like, I’m scared, I’m pregnant. I don’t know what to do. And I want everyone to know that they’re, you know, you can, self-manage their abortion safely with medication abortion. Um, I’ve been on the hotlines. I drive people to their appointments. here in DC. Uh, particularly if they need later abortions, I used to work at the National Network of Abortion Funds and volunteer with Abortion Funds.

So, I’ve been on those phone calls when people are like, I’m not sure what to do. I don’t have the money. I can’t travel. I don’t know, right? I’ve heard that desperation. I’ve sat with people, held their hands through their abortions when they finally feel that relief of, I didn’t think I was going to be able to get it.

And so just like, you know, thinking about that, like in 2022, it’s not just like, oh, when this is happening, like they can come back with their decision at any point. And that is absolutely terrifying. I hope and pray that that’s not the case. But I just know that I would not be who I am if I had to be 19 year-old Renee who had to continue that pregnancy with somebody who was punching the wall next to her head and just, that’s just not. 

And I also don’t talk about this very much, but I drank a lot right before my abortion in hopes that it would cause a miscarriage because I was 19, I didn’t know anything. And so what I was thinking about when you were asking that question where I started to cry, it was just like, I think about how scared 19 year-old Renee was.

And that, you know, nothing would have stopped me. And I’m glad that I had access in that. I’m glad that we have safe self managed access now, but not everybody knows about it. And that’s what, what terrifies me. 

So, sorry, I didn’t mean to cut you off Ms.  Steinem. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham:  You don’t owe anybody an apology. I want to thank you for the gift of your honesty. 

Gloria Steinem: Yes, absolutely. And you have to say Gloria. You can’t call me Ms Steinem. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: You know, you’re always taught how to talk to your elders. She did the same thing first time I met her, I get it. Trust me. It’s the Midwest in us. We can’t help it. 

Gloria Steinem: Yeah. I mean, I think that without letting up any pressure on keeping the laws as just as they should be and the procedures as economically available as they should be with at all, that goes without saying. But at the other end of that is the clear determination with each other and our own strength that we are going to support each other and doing whatever we fucking well have to do to achieve reproductive choice and freedom for each one of us. 

So, I just worry that sometimes we get too much attention focused on things we can’t control. And yes, we have to do that because only as you point out by massive organizing in the street is I’m so grateful for you for doing,  do we have an influence on that, but that there are also things that we can do as individuals. Encouraging notes we can put up on the bulletin board at school or work. Discussion groups we can introduce this into. Demystifying the whole process, just as where we started out saying that we have had an abortion. So, just interweaving it wherever we are. And, and, uh, a big political sense saying there is no democracy.

Unless all of us women, as well as men have decision-making power over our own bodies, 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Gloria you’ve given us some important, critical, provocative, next steps. Renee, you have any thoughts to close us out? 

Renee Bracey Sherman: Yeah, I would just say to everyone listening, think about how far you would go and what you would do to make sure that someone you love has access to an abortion and, and do those things. Right?

And that can be as simple as telling them that you love them and showing up and talking about your values. Um, for those of you that had abortions, you know, when you feel ready, share your stories, but also give of your time and energy to local abortion funds. Go to keepourclinics.org that \ to show up for the independent abortion providers and the clinics.

Like, we need everybody to show up and show out because, you know, without abortion funds, without clinics, like folks can’t travel, there’s no clinics for them to go to. And then of course, give high fives and kudos to your champions, your political champions, who are doing the right thing. Like in my home state of Illinois, where they now they changed the law, right?

They got rid of, uh, parental notification and they have Medicaid coverage of abortion. So, there are really great things that can happen on the local counties, state level. But that means that folks have to take this seriously and get involved. And just remember that, you know, everyone knows someone who’s had an abortion.

Gloria Steinem: And I would say that too, that sometimes we forget to state this right from another point of view, which is that everyone has the right to be born, loved and wanted. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Everyone. That is the perfect place to close. And I just want to say thank you from the deepest part of me to the both of you, because you are holding power for people who are not ready yet to share their stories. And I just have the deepest gratitude for you both. For this conversation and for who you are in the world. 

Gloria Steinem: No, Brittany. Renee, I think we can speak for you, right? We are grateful to her, right?

Renee Bracey Sherman: Yeah. Thank you for bringing us together. And you know, it’s an honor to do it because I’ve never been in conversation with Gloria. So, you know…

Gloria Steinem: I’m with you. I mean, this is great, right? 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: It is. Thank you both so much.

Gloria Steinem is a writer, lecturer, political activist, and feminist icon. Renee Bracey Sherman is a reproductive justice activist icon in the making and the founder of We Testify.

Uh y’all know, I just became a mom and yes, access to abortion is just as important to me now, as it has ever been. My legal autonomy over my body and my access to birth control and family planning are absolutely the reason I was able to have our sweet baby M when I and my family were ready to provide the life he deserved, none of that would have been possible without the people who have fought to preserve and protect Roe. I absolutely do not want to live in a world where our choices are limited, our right to privacy is viscerated, and our access to abortion is non-existent. It is a medical procedure and those who want and need one should always be able to get it and get it safely. Period.

Renee’s called to think about how far you would go to make sure someone you love has access to abortion. It’s different this week. So, what can we do? What are we going to do? What will we do, especially to support the most marginalized. They’re going to be a ton of answers to that question, but for right now, the work may look different for each of us.

If you have the financial resources, give to abortionfunds.org. The National Network of Abortion Funds will split your donation across the more than 80 funds that help people get access to reproductive care. It’s the local grassroots work that needs our support the most right now. If you are inclined to share your personal experience, go to wetestify.org to share your abortion story,

That’s Renee’s organization, and you can add your voice to the growing community of people who are dispelling the shame around abortion with the reality of their lived experience. If you can contribute your physical presence in the streets, find actions all across the country, under the Bans Off Our Bodies hashtag. When you’re out there, stay masked up so disabled people can safely join you and don’t bother engaging with right-wing media or counter protesters. They are simply there to twist your words and your work. Don’t give them the energy. 

If canvassing is more your thing, find a candidate challenging an anti-choice incumbent to volunteer for it. That might include Jessica Cisneros in Texas who’s challenging the house’s last anti-choice Democrat. Good riddance. If you’ve got a phone and you don’t mind using it, call the Senate switchboard and tell them to pass HR 37 55, the Women’s Health Protection Act. It’s already been passed by the house, and it’s meant to codify Roe in the law for any and everybody who needs it. And while you’re at it, call President Biden and tell him to use his power to push for the end of the Senate filibuster, so the bill can actually pay.

And if you’re supporting someone who’s pregnant, but doesn’t want to be, help them find abortion access that Ineedana.com. Remember, abortion is still legal here in the United States of America. The tangled web of restrictions, bans, scare tactics, internalized shame, even among pro-choice politicians that might make it seem like it’s not the case, but it is. 

These are the times when we save us. Now and forever.

You know, I say this every week, but it means something a little different right now. 

That’s it for today, but never ever for tomorrow. UNDISTRACTED is a production of The Meteor and Pineapple Street Studios. 

This episode was produced by Rachel Matlow and Rachel Ward. 

Treasure Brooks is our correspondent.

Our associate producers are Alexis Moore and Marialexa Kavenaugh.

Thanks also to Hannis Brown, Davy Sumner, and Raj Makhija.

 

Our executive producers at The Meteor are Cindi Leive and myself, and our executive producers at Pineapple are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Max Linsky. 

You can follow me at @MsPackyetti on all social media or our team @TheMeteor, who’s dedicated to keeping you abreast of all things Roe v. Wade. 

Subscribe to UNDISTRACTED and rate and review us on Apple podcasts or most places you check out your favorite podcasts. 

Thanks for listening. Thanks for being. And especially right now, thanks for doing.  I’m Brittany Packnett Cunningham.

Let’s go get free.

LEARN MORE ABOUT UNDISTRACTED

UNDISTRACTED: April 28, 2022

The Senator of TikTok: Morgan Harper’s Run for Office (and  Our Hearts)

Please note: This transcript has been automatically generated.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Hey, y’all it’s Brittany. People used to ask me all the time when I’d run for office, I took it as a major compliment, like thank you for trusting me with your future. And once upon a time, I thought, yeah, maybe. But the truth is that is not my jam. I think partly I was worried that I’d have to, like, censor myself too much.

I only recently started to fully own my voice without apology, and I was not ready to start shutting up for political expediency. Like y’all I just started cussing in public two years ago and I was not about to just go back to my Kidz Bop self, okay. Truth though, I don’t actually think that kind of self-censorship is necessary anymore.

I mean, the image of that perfectly refined politician who never swears and always goes to church and never, ever wears a heel above two inches or a pantsuit more than once that dusty archetype of old is slowly but surely being wrestled to the ground by some bad-ass folks. 

Take Congresswoman Cori Bush. Her approach is as authentic as her and it’s helped ensure that the perspective of a single mother and organizer and someone who has experienced the effects of policy is actually informing policy at the highest levels. You don’t sleep out on the steps of the Capitol protesting the end of the rent moratorium if you’re a by the book Manchurian candidate. She’s just one of the leaders of the new school turning tradition on its face, entering the arena because she knows that you can’t win if you don’t participate. So maybe I’m not a candidate, but maybe some of you are, and maybe we need to stop finding the reasons why we shouldn’t and consider the reasons why we should.

We are UNDISTRACTED.

On the show today, a conversation with Morgan Harper, a brilliant young candidate for Senate in Ohio. 

Morgan Harper: These are not normal people. These are not people that are actually trying to become US senators to accomplish anything. It’s like their mission is obstruction and then trying to make our lives worse while they get rich and everybody who funds them gets richer too.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: That’s coming up. But first here’s Treasure Brooks with your trending news.

Treasure Brooks: Okay. First off, we are not going to talk about Twitter and the man who wants to colonize Mars. The people and issues we care about are here on Earth. Thank you very much. So that’s where we’re going to spend our energy. 

The Supreme Court has upheld a ban on blind, disabled, and elderly, Puerto Rican residents getting income from a federal benefit program. This is a big deal. Let’s break it down. American citizens who are in the supplemental security income program and who live in the 50 States. Get about 10 times the monthly income that Puerto Ricans do. Puerto Ricans get just about $84 a month. But why?

Puerto Ricans are US citizens and have been since World War I. Justice Brett Kavanaugh said that the ruling was justified by the fact that most Puerto Ricans don’t pay federal income taxes, but as Justice Sonia Sotomayor pointed out in descent, plenty of states pay less into the federal treasury than other states.

I’m looking at you Vermont, Wyoming, South Dakota, North Dakota, Montana, and Alaska. This ruling shows just how unequally the Constitution is applied when it comes to us territories. For example, residents of Guam, the US Virgin islands, American Samoa, and the Northern Mariana islands can’t vote for president.

They get a representative in Congress, but that representative can’t vote on legislation, even if it might affect their constituents. DC residents get shafted in this way too, by the way. Look, the population of U S territories is 3.5 million people. That’s more than the five smallest states combined. US territories pay nearly $4 billion with a B in federal taxes, annually. American Samoan serve in the military at a rate higher than any US state.

This inequality cannot continue. No territories chose to become part of the United States. They were either bought, bartered, or stolen, And their people still experienced second class citizenship today. So for Puerto Ricans to be denied the basic protection of disability benefits, which if you ask me aren’t benefits at all—they’re rights, is insulting.

And one last thing, the elephant in the room is that 98% of the people in the US territories are racial and ethnic minorities. So is it a sheer coincidence that they’re being shortchanged? I think not.

Okay. 

From oppression to liberation or rather to free-ass motherfucker. That’s Janelle Monáe’s preferred pronoun, according to the LA times. That or they/them or she/her. The recording artist said on Red Table Talk last week that they’re non-binary. The announcement is worth celebrating, especially because they had alluded to being non-binary in the past, but is only now ready to share it publicly.

It’s beautiful to see them live their truth. And Jenelle dropped some serious wisdom explaining what led them to this place. 

Janelle Monae: I just don’t see myself as a woman solely. I feel like God is so much bigger than the he or the she. It’s like, it’s like something. And if I am from God, I am everything. 

Treasure Brooks: We have to congratulate Monáe’s for finding the space to come into their own.

Thank you for showing us your queer Afrofuturist vision. We can’t wait to see where your journey takes you and us next.

Finally, the investigative podcast Reveal has uncovered the truth about a top pregnancy information website. The so-called American Pregnancy Association may sound like the kind of place you’d go to get reliable information about having a baby, but it is actually produced by anti-choice activist Brad Imler.

Imler is not new to this kind of fakery. He first started at the American Pregnancy Helpline, an antiabortion hotline that masquerades as a resource for people with unplanned pregnancies. He later created the American Pregnancy Association website to try and reach more people with anti-choice misinformation.

And his methods have worked. The page, cited by top medical institutions like Los Angeles’ Cedar Sinai and media outlets likeThe New York Times, purports to offer science-backed information. But Reveal found the site presents medical inaccuracies as facts like the long since disproven myth that abortion is linked with breast cancer.

Unfortunately, this medical provider cosplay is not a new phenomenon. Crisis pregnancy centers first popped up in Hawaii in 1967, when the state legalized abortion and have continued to spread. And Associated Press analysis revealed that over the past decade, they’ve gotten tens of millions of dollars in taxpayer money to provide their deceptive services.

Listen, the top reasons that people choose abortion are because they aren’t financially prepared for a child or in relationships with a partner that they don’t want to bring a child into. So if you want to prevent abortion, get to work on economic inequality, get to work on education and housing access.

Get to work on universal healthcare, childcare and support for people in abusive relationships. But until you put in the hours on this projects, Brad Imler and anyone else who thinks they know better than we do when it comes to our uteruses, shut the hell up.

Coming up. Brittany will be talking to Morgan Harper, who might just be the next AOC. Right after this short break.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: And we are back. So we were talking before about political candidates. About how our ideas of what makes someone quote unquote electable have changed and how maybe, just maybe, we’re starting to get to a place where you can be a real human. And with a real life and real experiences and still run for and win a seat.

That would be good news for women who remain way underrepresented in Congress, which is still about three quarters male. There had been some early reports that the 2022 midterms could be a step forward for women, with Black women projected to make some gains both in Congress and in other roles. Hello, Stacey Abrams. I see you running for governor again. 

This progress is slow, y’all. A recent study from the Brookings Institute found that women are still much less likely than men to even consider running for office. And y’all while the study doesn’t get into this, I will point out that a lot of the women candidates who are running in 2022 are Republicans. And you know that more Marjorie Taylor Greenes in the halls of Congress is not my idea of progress. That’s a hard pass. 

We want candidates who practice empathy toward all people who put justice at the center. Who put BIPOC lives and trans lives and marginalized lives first. Who stand up to power, not grab it and hoard it. My guest today has put those messages at the forefront of her campaign and she’s gotten national attention along the way.

Morgan Harper is a candidate for US Senate, coming from her home state of Ohio. She’s in a much-watched primary race up against incumbent Congressman Tim Ryan, who’s already been endorsed by the Ohio Democratic Party. But Harper is giving him a run for his money, advocating for universal health care and accountability for big tech and using TikTok to get her message across. She’s young, just 38 years old, but you know what? She brings a lot to this race. 

There’s her personal experience. She was in foster care for the first nine months of her life before being adopted. And has said that her quote, whole story starts with the community stepping in and giving me a shot. There’s her professional accomplishments. She got her law degree from Stanford and worked in the Obama administration, protecting consumers from corporate wrongdoing. We love that. 

And then there’s her political experience. Harper ran for Congress once before, when she tried for a House seat in 2020. She lost then, but she’s trying again now for Senate. Which, let me remind you has exactly zero Black woman in it right now. Which is another reason why so many of us are watching Morgan Harper do her thing.

I wanted to talk to her about values, empathy, and yes TikTik. So I caught her on the campaign trail. We’re on March 31st, 33 days before her primary coming up on May the 3rd. Morgan Harper, Senator of TikTok. Thanks for joining me.

Morgan Harper: Thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Um, I’m joking because you’re actually running for the US Senate, which is a beautiful thing.

Um, so I certainly do not mean to diminish your accomplishments. I’m simply saying that because, like a lot of people, the first time I encountered you was on maybe the most beautiful TikTok I’ve ever. You’re debating Josh Mandel, who’s the Republican candidate running for the Senate seat in Ohio. And not only do you absolutely eviscerate him, but you’re like perfectly composed while he spews the most racist, sex, conspiratorial ideas. And to be clear, you don’t have to be that composed because if you wanted to scream at him, that would have been perfectly justified. But like what, what was going on in your head during these debates? Because this is not…we’re at a different time.

Morgan Harper:Yeah. We are in a different time and I appreciate your saying that because I sometimes feel like I have to remind people of that and that these are not normal times. These are not normal people. These are not people that are actually trying to become US senators to accomplish anything. It’s like their mission is obstruction and them trying to make our lives worse while they get rich and everybody who funds them gets richer too. Right?

So, uh, in my head, it’s all about trying to call that out. I mean, I think that needs to be our overall Democratic strategy. Like, this isn’t real. Josh Mandel says that he really cares about homeless veterans. Okay. What’s your plan to get people more housing? You don’t have one. Call that out. So call it out for exactly what it is. You are being racist. These are racist tropes. Here’s what I actually want to do to improve your life and then, and be aggressive about communicating that message. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: This wild time has found you and Mandel in debate more than once, right?

And he’s kind of a stand-in for the culture wars that the GOP wants to pursue. But during one of these debates, he accuses you of, this is my favorite one. And if you’re listening, I’m doing air quotes, getting angry with him. Right? Even though, like it’s a debate and passion counts for something, but of course we know this trope. We accused Black women of being irrationally angry.

Like our anger is not justified and it’s unbecoming. Um and it’s just such an exhausted trope. And yet it is still so pervasive everywhere, but especially in politics. How do you, how do you protect your mental wellbeing and preserve yourself in situations like this?

Morgan Harper: Yeah, I have one moment at the beginning there were it was clear he was going to go down that route. ‘Cause I think he said it probably 12 times that I was angry just in a row. Everything I said was like angry. Oh Morgan, why you so angry? So worked up? And after the first couple of times it was like, wow, he’s really going to go there. And I felt myself being who I am. You know, there’s a side that I’m like about to go after this guy.

But then you have to remember, there’s a larger, larger picture out here. And ultimately, I do think we’re going to be most effective when we just pivot back to substance constantly, constantly, constantly. And because we know, you know, you take one of those little clips and then Fox News is going to have a field day with it and what will come of it.

And in fact, we can really contrast what they’re saying by, like I said, just calling that out directly. And you know, I mean, I think seeing for me too the, um, the Supreme Court confirmation hearings. Because I, ‘cause I also minimize it a little bit. You know, what the impact is of, of some of that rhetoric coming at you and having to see her go through that, um, Ketanji Brown Jackson.

It was triggering of just what that experience was like and really feeling like, man, I just can’t believe this is what we’ve become in a way. And, you know, I spoke to a group of students recently and they were asking me about the debates as well, and a lot of young Black women, women of color, and like, well, how, how can we build resiliency?

And my message was, I don’t want you to have to be this resilient. This, this is not the goal. The goal is that you get to just be great. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: So for the people who have not had the pleasure of seeing you across their for you page, like I have and who maybe live outside of Ohio or who maybe live inside of Ohio and still have questions.

What is the Morgan Harper 1 0 1? Like, what are your biggest policy priorities right now? And, and really what, what helps shape them? 

Morgan Harper: Well, where I’m coming from with all of this. I mean why, you know, just to back up, why I’m in politics in the first place is I had early exposure through life experiences about how we don’t really have a level playing field for getting access to the American dream.

I saw that through education, educational choices that were made by my mom, I saw that through the fact that, you know, being adopted, being given up for adoption. Going through my parents going through this crazy divorce that I knew, we only made it really out of chance. I was like, this can’t be how we operate.

If we really are serious about being a country of, of the American dream. And then eventually, you know, having any experiences of being at places like the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau in Washington and understanding the limits of even great policymaking with good people who are doing it. If it’s not moving the needle economically for people, if we have politicians that aren’t on the side of really getting things done, it’s game over. 

Yeah. And I would argue we’re at about game over, right? Cause like this could be the end and what’s it going to take to move in a different direction to actually fulfill that promise of what our country is supposed to be from a policy perspective? I think it has to look like aking sure that everybody has healthcare minimum.

That’s not just the right thing to do. We know that you need to be healthy to have any shot of leading a stable life, but even if that’s not enough for you, it’s also the economically efficient thing to do to make sure that we have Medicare for all. And I will go to bat with anybody who wants to talk about that and I’m open to other ideas, but I haven’t heard one that’s as persuasive to me about how we’re going to solve for that.

I want to make sure that people are earning enough money to live. I think a lot of the other issues that we find ourselves dealing with in communities across Ohio, across the country is that people just don’t have enough money. And this is another point I made in one of those debates. And so the positive news is there are things we can do about all of this.

I mean, investing in the clean energy sector, that’s what I want Ohio to be a state of the future. I want to make sure that, you know, we have people who are able to get access to the addiction recovery services that they need. Mental health care services that they need, and we can do this. And so those are just a suite of some of my priorities, but I have a vision of how we can really drive out here and, uh, and just want to be able to be in a position to make it happen. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: And I mean, you’re, you’re throwing your hat into this ring at a relatively young age, right? So you are, if you don’t mind me saying so 38, which is a year older than me, and I don’t think I could imagine running for Senate right now for a whole host of reasons.

I’m curious how you feel, you know, younger generations can really inform the direction moving forward. Because I mean, you look at the Senate, right? We’re not talking about a lot of 28 year olds, 38 year olds, even 48 year olds, frankly. Um, and I’m just curious your thoughts as to, um, why now at this point in your life, do you feel like, um, this is the right move to make. 

Morgan Harper: Yeah. You know, I think it’s very interesting that we’ve gotten to this place where it is strange for people our age to be running for Senate. Cause I agree with you. I mean, if you would ask me even probably three or four years ago, that I’d be running for the United States Senate before I’m 40. The answer would have been a hard, no, right?

Cause just no, that’s what older people do. And, uh, and then we look at, and this actually came up before, you know, it just had the first and will likely be the only debate for the Democratic primary before we were going on stage with a moderator and say, oh, you know, you’re so young and it’s good to see young people out here.

And I was like, well, you know, it’s, it is true that we have people that are about my age almost that are running entire countries in other places. And it is true that about the average age of our country is closer to what I am than the average age of the Senate, which I think is over 60. And maybe we need to reorient our expectations of what these positions should be. Truly reflecting the diversity of the population.

So yeah, no, I, I wouldn’t have expected it, but I do think it’s necessary to be able to have more people who are millennials who are now full-fledged adults in, in positions in government of influence to make sure that our policy reflects where people are at and we’re looking ahead for the next 40 years.

We’re invested in that, but most of the people that are in there will not be around for the next 40. So we need to make sure that we have a say.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: You know, I’m curious, what your thoughts broadly are around the importance of running again after a loss. You know, there’s a saying that, um, when a man loses a race, he thinks America has made a mistake.

When a woman loses a race, she thinks she’s made a mistake and she’s not meant for politics. Is that a feeling you have to fight? Right. Like I, I think about my hometown Congresswoman Cori Bush, if she hadn’t kept running, she wouldn’t be in Congress right now. 

Morgan Harper: Yeah. Well, it’s funny, you mentioned Cori. I get chills even when I think about Cori winning, because that was a really, uh, that was, uh, that was a moment for me when Cori won that made me feel like, oh, it was all worth it, you know, in, in a way.

Um, because yeah, I mean, when you lose, it’s tough and it’s such a public loss when everyone is watching. And that was, that was really hard to process because yeah, I had let people down. And so many people had invested time, money into the campaign and that’s, that’s hard to feel that. Um, but you know, the other thing though, is it was interesting when I, when we did re-emerge as the summer hit and people were going out for protests and different actions and things like that, that I encountered people that were surprised to see me.

‘Cause exactly what you’re saying. You’re, you’re expected to just wither away in shame and never be heard from again. And I was like, Okay. No, I mean, yeah, I lost the election, but we did a lot of great things. Okay. We got over 20,000 votes. We had people come out that had never voted by absentee ballot before that we’re making it happen to, to express themselves to support our campaign.

So that was a victory. We need to reorient how we’re thinking about what that was. And then I felt even more strongly about, and I can’t have people think that that that’s a failure. If you have one step back that then you’re done. Absolutely not. So that meant a lot to me, you know, just to be able to show people what, I guess we’re going back to that resilience point, but this is a, you know, maybe a more, uh, expected type of resilience.

Of course, you’re not going to be able to win everything. But that I can show people that model. And I heard from a lot of people. Now this gets into a little bit more of a weird thing. I heard from some people that were like, I wanted to see you lose. I wanted to see you lose to be able to know that you’re real.

But I, and I just heard that again about a week ago from somebody who was like, I’m so excited, you’re running again. ‘Cause I didn’t, I wanted to believe that everything you were saying was real. But I’ve never heard anybody say it and actually mean it. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Well,  that’s such an interesting take and that, you know, these folks who are saying, I kind of wanted to see you lose, um. I don’t think I’ve ever heard that before.

Morgan Harper: Really? You got to come to Ohio.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: My instinct is to like, individualize that. Right? And so like, what is w what, why would you say something like that? And then I realized that perhaps that’s even more of a reflection of how much people feel cheated by the political process. Tthat the idea that somebody could actually have values and stand by them and then not be bought out.  Them not be, you know, uh, them not chicken out that that is, uh, such a, an unexpected thing, um, from politicians really across the globe, but certainly, um, in Washington. That perhaps people, um, have developed their own tests for that. Which, which, which is really fascinating.

Right. Because, uh, you know, I often say that democracy is under threat in two ways, right? One, um, and that there are folks who are very interested in creating disinterest from people, right? Who want folks to lose faith in participating in the system who want folks to believe that they actually can’t make it any better so why even try? 

And then there’s like good old fashioned attacks against democracy, like disinformation, voter disenfranchisement, and suppression. Looking out at the field of Republicans in Ohio, um, that you, one of whom you will run against, if you win this primary. That debate stage for the Republicans running for the Senate seat in March, seven candidates on stage, only one of them acknowledges the legitimacy of president Biden’s win.

Um, literally six people on that stage believe and perpetuate the myth that the election was stolen. And there are many, many more conservatives that reflect this viewpoint and are just detached from reality in a way that is terrifying, right? Not, not funny, terrifying. How do we like everyday people defend democracy against that level of disinformation?

Morgan Harper: Yeah. Another, uh, another good and important question and a big question. Uh, so, you know, like I was doing in those Mandel debates, I think we need to just call it out directly and, and we need to be very aggressive in doing that and aggressive with him. I have a very great amount of empathy for individuals I need around our state who may be, do ascribe to some of these views.

Uh, and I may give a shot with anyone to explain it, but when I’m interacting with one of these political figures, who is spewing this stuff I have, no, I have no patience and I don’t think we should. And I think we need to be really direct about that. So I mean, that, that to me is the strategy is calling it out and then trying to move towards, and here’s what we need to be about, but we also need to be realistic about the fact that that is unlikely to happen through just the traditional, oh, we’re going to flood the airways.

Ads come then the November general election, it’s like, no, we need to be boots on the ground. Grassroots infrastructure, everywhere, meeting people where they’re at to make the case for why that is not for you. We are in deep investment, lots of lots of conversations. I think that’s our only hope. So grassroots is no longer just this like cutesy thing that some young people are talking about now and then. I think that is our only pathway to salvation from this stuff. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: You talk about grassroots and me thinks some of that is maybe connected to a point that you always make about growing up in a union household. Um, I grew up in a union family too. And, um, I’m wondering why it’s important to you to consistently make that point on the campaign trail?

Morgan Harper: Well, because especially in Ohio, Uh, this concept has been completely weaponized, you know, as somehow, oh, if you’re in a union, you’re going to be losing control over your life, and you’ll never be able to, you know, have enough autonomy and, and advance in your career. And the, the brainwashing has been so exquisite.

And I don’t know if you find that, you know, in Missouri, but that’s what’s happened here where we have some people that are scared to even say the word, you know. And it’s like, what is this? No, no, that’s at the core of being able to build your career. I mean, when, you know, my family was going through crazy, crazy things that my mom was able to, to know that she could take a few minutes, be able to get to a lawyer appointment, get to a court appointment, whatever, and that she would still have a job.

That’s how you’re able to navigate things. Do you have some job security? Yes. I think it’s really important to emphasize that so that we are educating the next generation about the strength of unions and the need to support them. I was at an event that some Ohio state students put together as like, make no mistake about it, right now your fight is making sure that you’re paid enough as a student worker. But the reason why they don’t want you to talk about these things, the reason why they don’t want you to talk about unionization is people are trying to prepare you for an adulthood of just taking it. No.

We need to be countering that and need to know that there’s strength in that collective organizing to be able to push back against power and, you know, in power is what power is. And you have to have a balance of power. If we can have equitable outcomes. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah. I, I used to be a teacher and was a full dues paying member of the Washington Teachers Union.

I needed that sick leave bank when I was in the hospital for a week with a kidney issue, right? And I it’s, it’s both the large political things and the ability to organize, um, real, everyday people. And it’s also those, those everyday communal mutual aid things that we, that we depend on when it comes to that organizing body

I mean, as you’re saying. There’s a specific conversation happening about unions in Ohio. We’ve seen the percentage of unionized workers in Ohio declining for decades and still given where it began. It’s one of the most heavily unionized states in the country. Um, and we know that there’s a concentration of what I think a lot of people would call traditional unions, right?

Um, auto workers, steel workers, but there are also Starbucks locations that are organizing and other newer businesses where folks are saying to your point, we actually don’t want to just take it. We want to have a say in what happens with our lives and our wages. I’m curious what you’ve observed about the potential for this conversation in Ohio, especially with some of these, um, these new found organizing efforts.

Morgan Harper: I think there’s a lot of potential because I think a lot of young people are starting to realize that where we’re headed is not going to add up and that’s becoming clearer and clearer by the day. And in fact, folks would be willing to maybe sacrifice a little perceived autonomy with some greater expectation of security down the line.

And, and ultimately that’s what, that’s what we’re up against. We’re up against this philosophy of individualism at all costs to be able to have total control over your life. That is a facade. Okay. Versus understanding that and coming together, we can actually drive forward better outcomes than we could alone.

And that’s, that’s not Pollyannaish stuff. That’s just power, that’s power dynamics. So I think a lot of younger people are waking up to that. I also am excited to see a lot of connections from folks who have been more traditional union members who maybe are older starting to mentor some of the younger unionizing efforts that are happening. Those connections are really important.

And then of course, I think that politics can be a tremendous vehicle for accelerating that. And then we have to have, you know, some issues that really bring people together. I think the minimum wage issue is one that naturally just unites a lot of different types of people across the state. But then also looking at something like healthcare, which traditionally has been used as something to divide a lot of union members from other people who maybe were advocating for universal health care, Medicare for all. But I’m sensing there too there’s a shift and a lot of union members recognizing negotiated healthcare benefits, not actually serving our needs. And having connections with people and even, you know, in Canada, I’ve, I’ve talked to some union members in Northwest Ohio that have connections to people in Canada, and now we’re seeing they’re just negotiating for more money, but then they get to do with what they want.

They don’t have to waste time trying to negotiate for healthcare. Um, yeah. You know, making sure that we have the issues that are going to be unifiers as well. I think we’ll bring more people into the fold to recognize the power of unions, but then also be able to push for in a more efficient way to a coalition of people that support these policies.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Before I let you go,  you know, if, if you are elected, you would be Ohio’s first Black woman Senator. Um, in fact, the state’s first woman Senator at all, which is, my God. Um, the fact that we’re still counting first in 2022 is both terrifying, um, and fascinating. And I’m guessing that there are a lot of people who are listening, who could absolutely have a lot to contribute to our government at every level, but maybe don’t see themselves entering, uh, entering the fray.

What, what do you want a person from a marginalized background, a person who folks count out a person who might even count themselves out, what should they consider about maybe, um, getting in the arena like you have? 

Morgan Harper: Yeah, it’s a great question and what I would want people to consider and what I’m usually advising people who are asking me about whether they should run for office. You know, what are the qualifications? What do you need? Did you need to hold this position and this much money? 

Most important thing to me, especially as we embark on these 2020s, which are wild, right. Uh, is authenticity. And I’ve found in my life that the people who have been through the most are usually those that are the most authentic.

And because of some of the things that we’ve already discussed with the disillusionment distrust, with the political process, being able to have folks that are in these positions that, that others perceive as authentic. It’s just, uh, that is, that is the only qualification right now to me to have a lot of electoral success, especially if you’re trying to be a Democrat.

And so, uh, yeah, there, there needs to be more of us running who really get it. And it’s so interesting because I’ve learned. Starting to be in this arena now, there’s so many people who try to have it. But you can see through it. You know, I think we probably all can think of examples of that. And that’s the most important thing.

So, you know, you don’t need to check every box. You just need to keep checking your boxes for yourself to make sure that when you get to the point of wanting to run, that you are intact for who you are, what you believe in, why you’re doing it and that you can sell that to other people. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Amen and amen. Morgan Harper, thank you so much for spending time with us on your very busy campaign calendar. We appreciate it. 

Morgan Harper: No appreciate you. Great to meet you Brittany.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Morgan Harper is running in the democratic primary to be the next senator from Ohio.

When folks found out I had a baby, as you can imagine, we got a ton of books, like half of them, where “A is for Activist”. That’s an actual book. And if you need one, let me know. I have plenty extra.  Baby M and I have read it now quite a few times. And D is one of my favorite passages. D is for small D. Democracy.

The rhyme goes on to talk about how it is the people and only the people who should be organizing to make the decisions that matters most. It sounds radical to read that to an infant, but perhaps if that was everybody’s bedtime reading candidates and electeds like Morgan, who believe in the power of the grassroots, wouldn’t be rare. They’d be standard issue.

It is in the grassroots where we not only find our power. It is there we should also take our direction because no one candidate, whether they’ve been in Congress for 40 years or 4 will ever be our savior. No, I don’t stand politicians. They are. They are fallible and they will never, ever take positions that satisfy all of us all at the same time.

But I do and will always believe in the collective power of the people and the vision that we create together. As the disability activists say nothing about us should ever be decided without us. So, whether you’re going to put your name on the ballot, like Morgan, to advocate for the ideas you know matter. Or you’re going to go support someone else who does,  it is always time to get in the arena.

That’s it for today, but never for tomorrow. UNDISTRACTED is a production of The Meteor and Pineapple Street Studios. 

 

Treasure Brooks is our correspondent. 

Our lead producer is Rachel Ward. 

Our associate producers are Alexis Moore and Marialexa Kavenaugh. 

Thanks also to Hannis Brown, Davy Sumner, and Raj Makhija.

Our executive producers at The Meteor are Cindi Leive and myself, and our executive producers at Pineapple are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Max Linsky. 

You can follow me at @MsPackyetti on all social media and our team @TheMeteor. 

Subscribe to UNDISTRACTED and rate us on Apple Podcast or most places you find your favorite podcasts. 

Thanks for listening. Thanks for being. And thanks for doing. I’m Brittany Packnett Cunningham. Let’s go get free.

LEARN MORE ABOUT UNDISTRACTED

UNDISTRACTED: April 21, 2022

Motherhood, Love and the “Trayvon Generation,” with Elizabeth Alexander

Please note: This transcript has been automatically generated.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Hey, y’all it’s Brittany. 

I gotta tell y’all I’m just overwhelmed in the very best way by your supremely generous response to the news about our growing family. We got comments from so many of you across social media and in our inboxes and in our podcast reviews, in our text messages about how last week’s episode made you feel and about your well-wishes for our little strong one, baby M. Reggie and I, we just feel so deeply honored to know that our transparency really resonated and gave some folks som hope. 

A lot of y’all said you cried,  my bad. But I appreciate so sincerely how welcoming a community you all continue to be. And I’ll tell you, I told Reggie all the way back in December that our kiddo would be home with us happy and healthy by Resurrection Sunday, also known as Easter. 

In our faith tradition, it’s the holiest week of all. And something down in my spirit told me that even though our little one came Earthside early, that he’d be coming home right on time. And sure enough. I was absolutely that mom who bought the white linen shorts with the embroidered bunnies and the matching polo onesie. And I was not at all embarrassed by how stinking cute he looked in it. 

And of course he would be the one to make his homecoming during the week that Christians, Jews, Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, and those of the Bahá’í Faith all celebrate our holiest days in the same month at the same time for the first time in decades. That kid, I tell you. I pray that your week was as incredible as mine and that the weeks ahead are full of blessings that absolutely blow your mind. 

We are UNDISTRACTED.

On the show today, I’m talking to Elizabeth Alexander, the renowned poet and author of The Trayvon Generation about raising joyful children. 

Elizabeth Alexander: You know, my mother would often say to me when I said like “Oh, this and that, and my worry.” She’d say “But they live in your house, don’t they? Do they not live in your house?”

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: But first the news.

So last week, I told you all my very big news that I’ve been holding on to for a long time. But the new addition to our family, we talk a lot about family leave on this show. You’ve heard Senator Warren talk about how student loan debt makes it hard for young families to buy a home. We’ve talked to Nicole Chung about the tough conversation she’s had with her daughter about violence against Asian-Americans. And Ai-jen Poo helped us understand the true cost of caretaking in the United States.

We also talk a lot about our collective responsibility for and to each other. So I’m going to try to practice what I preach for the next few months and lean on some of my incredible teammates around here, so I can be with baby M.  We’ve got some fantastic, powerful, incredible episodes planned for you.

There’s one in particular that I am just dying for you to hear. And don’t worry, I’m not going anywhere. You may even get to hear some very sleep deprived notes from home from me. But you’ll also get to hear from one of my day ones here on the show. A name from the credits come to life, Treasure Brooks will be here to help us fill the gaps.

She’s a cultural critic, a producer on UNDISTRACTED, and she’s always, always got the very best looks on all our Zoom calls. 

Treasure Brooks: Hi, Brittany. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: So listen, Treasure, you have all the things going on. You are about to graduate from the Harvard University and you’ve turned in this fantastic thesis. And you’ve been doing all of this while you’ve been a producer right here on the show and holding it down as a John Lewis, Good Trouble fellow at the Kennedy school of Government at Harvard.

That is a mouthful. Tell us more about yourself. Who are you and what is this fantastic thesis you’ve written? 

Treasure Brooks: Well, I’m from Oakland, California, which I am extremely, extremely proud of. I am a dancer, a film student, and my thesis is called Sleep Under Ladders. It’s a multimedia exhibition where I essentially explore how people miss attribute, systemic oppression to individualize bad luck.

So if walking under a ladder is bad luck, then to live in an oppressive system presiding over you without knowing it is to be asleep under a ladder. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: My God, is that how these Oakland girls are out here doing it? 

Treasure Brooks: Yup, that’s Oakland for you. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: My God. Okay. So Treasure, you are going to walk us through the news. Tell the people what’s good. 

Treasure Brooks: Now Brittany, you know nothing’s good. It’s the news. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Okay, well that’s fair. 

Treasure Brooks: I’m just kidding, there’s a little good in there. So let’s get into it. First thing’s first. Can we talk about these mask rules changing? A judge in Florida has struck down the Biden administration’s mask mandate for federal transportation and in response airlines, Amtrak, and some regional public transportation systems immediately dropped their masking requirements.

Now, I get it. No one loves a mask, but this change has very clear implications for people who are already vulnerable because of disability, age, or being immunocompromised. And that vulnerability, like so much else in our society unequally falls on women and people of color. A quarter of women, a quarter of Black people, and 30% of indigenous Americans have a disability according to the CDC.

So our health is truly affected by this move. And it’s important to understand that many people will still choose to wear masks and that respecting their desire and their need to do so is critical. But there’s another note here that I want to highlight and it has to do with that judge in Florida, Kathryn Kimball Mizelle. She is a darling of the right. She was appointed by the former occupant of the White House. She’s a member of the right wing Federalist Society. And she clerked for Clarence Thomas, whose wife we now know had refused to believe that President Biden won the election. Now legal experts are questioning whether Judge Mizelle’s ruling even correctly interpreted the law around sanitation and health.

NPR spoke to a law professor at Georgia State University, who said, quote, if one of my students turned in this opinion as their final exam, I don’t know if I would agree that they had gotten the analysis correct. Y’all I don’t even know where to go with this. We should have listened to Anita Hill. And more seriously, when you hear people talk about who gets to appoint judges and why it matters. This is why it matters.

And now a little news from the world of people power. Earlier this month in West Virginia, hundreds of people enacted a blockade at Grant Town Power Plant. At least 16 people from grassroots organizations like West Virginia Rising and the Poor People’s Campaign were arrested.

Protesters: When West Virginia Is Under Attack. What do we do? STAND UP LIKE THAT! What do we do? STAND UP LIKE THAT! 

Treasure Brooks: Here’s why they were there. The plant receives coal waste from Enersystems, a coal brokerage that’s owned by West Virginia Sen. Joe Manchin’s family. According to his Senate disclosure documents, Manchin earned nearly $500,000 from the company in 2020. You heard that right. A politician who we entrust to make thoughtful decisions about the climate crisis is actually, literally invested in organizations that are making it worse.

He’s incentivized to ignore it. And this isn’t just any senator. Because of the Democrats’ slim majority in the Senate, Joe Manchin swing vote can sabotage legislation that could save our entire planet. And he does that at just about every turn. He spent months watering down the climate provisions in president Biden’s Build Back Better bill and then voted against it anyway, leading to its demise.

And by the way, Manchin also received more donations from the oil, gas, and coal industries than any other senator in the most recent election cycle. Over $680,000. My point is this, elected officials like Manchin are civil servants tasked with representing the public’s interest. But so many have proven their allegiance is first and foremost to corporate money.

There’s this quote that’s attributed to the folk singer Utah Phillips: “The earth is not dying, it is being killed. And those who are killing it, have names and addresses.” It’s the same with the people who are paying our politicians to vote against the interest of their constituents. You can find the names of the lobbyists who are contributing to elected officials and the industries that they represent at opensecrets.org.

And you can let that information inform your activism the same way. The folks behind the coal blockade date. I’m cheering them on.

Last week, the UK announced a plan to send migrants arriving on British shores to Rwanda, rather than allowing them to settle in the UK. The United Nations has called the plan an abdication of responsibility. And it’s hard not to see just how different this policy is from the way that Ukrainian refugees have been treated as they flee to nations like Poland and Hungary.

Prime Minister Boris Johnson billed the plan as a way to reduce exploitation and abuse of migraines at the hands of smugglers. But that doesn’t totally make sense, especially since just last year, the UK condemned Rwanda for failing to credibly investigate alleged human rights abuses of people being held in state custody.

Listen, the UK rerouting asylum seekers should concern everyone. The Johnson administration has been light on details about why a migrant might be denied entry. And vague criteria almost always means that race and ethnicity will become the basis by which the state chooses to review safety. Let’s call it what it is.

This policy is a continuation of the xenophobia we’ve already seen coming from many governments. It all makes me think of what Muzoon Almellehan, the Syrian refugee turned UNICEF ambassador said on the show recently. 

Muzoon Almellehan: If a country wants to welcome refugees from Ukraine, this means they must welcome refugees from Syria and from anywhere from the world.

Treasure Brooks: Maybe our government should start listening to actual refugees. That’s the moral clarity we need. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: All right y’all, you’re going to be great. Now, go turn in that thesis. Coming up, I’m talking to essayist and poet Elizabeth Alexander about raising a vision of the future right after this short break.

And we are back. My guest today is Elizabeth Alexander. You might remember her as the poet from Barack Obama’s first inauguration. At that time, she was only the fourth person to receive that honor alongside people like Maya Angelou and Robert Frost. Elizabeth’s new book, The Trayvon Generation, expands on an essay of the same name that she wrote for The New Yorker in June of 2020.

The thesis is that the cohort of young people who’ve grown up over the last two decades, including her own 20-something sons have experienced the dehumanization of Black people in a unique way with their phones in their hands. The images of brutality have been a constant and unavoidable reminder that the world they live in does not value their lives. 

There’s also the burden to document brutality they witnessed firsthand to record the moments that will force America to see what they see. To see us as human. I wanted to talk to Elizabeth about the experience of being a mother to Black boys who are part of that Trayvon generation. About how to hold them, about how to keep them safe while at the same time teaching them to be free. Because that’s what they are. 

It’s all very personal to me. And she was the one I wanted to hear from about it. 

Oh my goodness. Elizabeth Alexander, thank you so much for joining UNDISTRACTED today, 

Elizabeth Alexander: Brittany, I am so excited to be with you and very moved that we get to have a conversation on all these topics at this huge moment in your life that you have shared. So, um, I feel very honored to be here with you right now. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Thank you so much. You’re of course, referring to this news that I just kinda popped up with on everybody in the last few days. We’re just feeling so blessed to have welcomed our son home after four months in the NICU. And truly when I was thinking though, about people who I wanted to sit down with and talk to today, I kept thinking about you and your work and your writing.

So I’m really grateful. This is not just a regular interview. Um, but then we really get to dive into some of these meatier topics. 

Elizabeth Alexander: Yes, absolutely. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: So huge congratulations on the publication of your latest book, The Trayvon Generation. It obviously, I mean, at least for me, the book encapsulates just the courage and the lessons and the fears of an entire generation. Your children’s generation, really,

Where did this book come from for you? And who do you define as part of the Trayvon generation? 

Elizabeth Alexander: Oh, well, I define the Trayvon generation as being a generation of Black and Brown young people who grew up. I mean, we, you know, we call it Trayvon because I think that was a kind of pinnacle moment of our understanding the race-based vulnerability of our young people, uh, and the fact that the problem of the color line as Du Bois put it all those years ago is still with us. 

The problem of race at the center of America is still with us and our young people, uh, people in their teens, in their twenties, into their early thirties, grew up seeing violence, murder, killing of Black people repeated over and over again, mostly on their cell phones.

And I think that, you know, if you look back to Emmett till, and the way that, that image, because of the courage of his mother, Mamie Till-Mobley to, you know, bring the body from Money, Mississippi, where he had been murdered to Chicago to put it in an open casket, to allow thousands of people to come to the church.

To then allow Jet magazine to publish a photograph of Emmett Till. He became emblematic because thousands and thousands and thousands of people could see it that way. But the multiplication of the cell phone and the fact that we sometimes look at our phones and our kids do outside of our presence, outside of family context. Countless times, do we know what that violence and it’s witnessing by people who are more vulnerable because of it. Do we know what that has done to them? 

My sons are 22 and 23. Now I work in philanthropy, but most of my career I’ve been a college professor. So, you know, those are my people, you know, young people of that age. So I think of my sons, I think of their friends. I think of students I’ve taught over the years and much more importantly from the anecdotal of who we know we are talking about an entire generation who. It’s not just Trayvon Martin, which they didn’t see on their cell phones, but which we heard about and the incredible tableau of, you know, a kid with a hoodie and some Skittles. 

Yeah. But it’s Tamir Rice. It’s all of these other murders. What occasion, this essay that went into this book was George Floyd’s murder. So I think that not only have they witnessed their peers getting killed, they’ve witnessed their elders and their loved ones getting killed.

And we’ve seen that over and over and over again. And how have the young people processed that.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham:  You know in my college years, my senior thesis was, gosh, this was, uh, 2006 at the time was, was about the contemporary relevance of Emmett Till. And I titled my thesis for that now famous quote, to your point, from his mother in explaining her decision to have that open casket funeral, to allow Gordon Parks to take that photo and to allow Jet to publish it.

She said, so the world can see what they’d done to my boy. 

Elizabeth Alexander: That’s right. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: And when I found out I was having a son, I thought of her. I thought of Sabrina Fulton, Trayvon’s mother, whom whom I’ve come to know personally and love so much. I thought of George Floyd calling out for his own mother. 

Elizabeth Alexander: That’s right.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: You have, as you’ve said, two sons, what has it been like really reckoning with the reality that you can talk about the Trayvon generation, but you are raising it in your own home. How has that shaped your parenting as a result.

Elizabeth Alexander: Well, you are, again, it’s just so poignant that you are beginning this journey. Uh, and when you think about all of the infinity of hopes and dreams that we have for our children, you know, and of course, you know, not just our sons, right?

And if you think also about the absolutely animal protection. Uh, you know, we are the ones who are supposed to keep these people alive. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah. 

Elizabeth Alexander: We are the ones who are here to help them thrive. So I think that the balance is always, I mean, I think that being armed with knowledge and critical thinking is absolutely crucial.

So sometimes that means that, you know, perhaps at too young an age, you have to explain things to them so that they can keep themselves safe. Tamir Rice was 12. He was playing in the park. He was killed by the police in mere seconds. So, you know, we have to talk about that with our children. 

And I think that we also have to talk about it on a historical timeline, so they don’t think that it’s atomized or random, but that there is a history in this country of the dehumanization of Black people that we were brought to this country as chattel slaves, that we were designated three-fifths human. We were not designated human when we came to this country.

And I would argue that we haven’t altogether undone the effects of this dehumanization, because I think that you usually probably have to have some degree of dehumanization before you harm someone. 

At the same time, lifeforce, freedom, joy, bodily autonomy, power, strength, brilliance, you know, activism. These are the things that I want to nurture in my sons.

And so I think that that balance, you know, is, is what you’re always figuring. I mean, you know, I think that being what the elders call a race woman, which I proudly am, which I would call you as well. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Absolutely. 

Elizabeth Alexander: You know, that is, is a mighty mission. And, uh, being a scholar of African-American culture. I think there’s nothing on planet earth that’s more fascinating and rich and astonishing. So, you know, being called into Blackness for my work, for my mission. All good with that and happy to pass along that to my kids. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Certainly. 

Elizabeth Alexander: But this unresolved problem of race that we did not create as a problem in the first place. And so that’s what I say in the book as well.

It’s like, that’s not ours to fix. That’s not ours to fix. So, you know, I want our kids also to feel absolutely free in their minds and that, you know, as fascinating as Blackness is, there are many things to think about. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yes. Well, I mean, I want to talk to you about this balance because when I Sit down at night and I pray my prayers I’m constantly asking God to just help me raise a free Black child. I just want to raise a free Black child. You’ve said that a mark of successful parenting for you is if your boys are dancing. And I absolutely love that. It just, it hit me so hard because that’s precisely what I want, um, our baby to feel right as he grows throughout his life.

However, he comes to know himself, identify himself, see himself. I want it always to be through a lens of beauty and humanity and joy. I just want to dig into the details a little bit, because how do you make sure that your boys are dancing? How do you create space for joy to not just exist, but to really resonate kind of through all corners of their life?

Elizabeth Alexander: Well, I think that, you know, the way that we have always lived in the day to day, which involves, you know, again, arming them with as much knowledge and history and self-awareness and societal understanding as we possibly can. But also with every day, a celebration.  You know, my mother would often say to me when I said like “Oh, this and that, and my worry.” She’d say “But they live in your house, don’t they? Do they not live in your house?”

And I think that’s very powerful. Do they live in your house? What happens in your house? And so in my house is music. In my house is art. In my house is amazing delicious food. In my house is celebration. In my house are elders. In my house are young people. In my house are play aunties and play uncles, you know. Village. So, I mean, I think one of the things I’m always trying to get to is this idea that, and I think that this is something that’s been well-practiced in Black culture.

The nuclear family alone is an insufficient unit and also the philosophy that would hoard the resources of a family and not understand it as something to be shared, even though there is tremendous intimacy and family is something that I think it’s really crucial to remember. I also think, and you know, to some of the offerings of the book, there is visual art woven throughout. I’m so happy to say really beautifully reproduced by mostly African-American artists. And that offering when you look at Elizabeth Catlett, The Torture of Mothers, and you see the head of a Black woman and in it is a bubble with a boy in a pool of blood and to think about like the fears that never leave.

And then when you look at, at Jordan Casteel’s “Galen”, a beautiful portrait of an African-American man who is a luminous green, and he’s a nude, but he’s not objectified. And he’s looking out in such a way that you wonder, like, who is that human being? What is inside of him? That is not stereotype.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: That’s right.

Elizabeth Alexander: You know, that is a complex being. So I really do think that that is an offering as well. The words of, of, of our poets, you know, I, you know, I argue that African-American poetry is a form of monument and memorial. You know, when our history hasn’t been kept everywhere, you know, it’s the poets who keep calling our names and saying, this is who walked the earth. As in the Lucille Clifton poems that I include in the book.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: I want to come back to kind of the picture that is painted throughout the book, but you speak of the village that we know we need to raise our children. I’m a village project. You are a village project. It is most certainly our village that has gotten us through 116 days in the NICU.

And that I know will get us through 116 months plus of, you know, being parents. But you have written really powerfully about the prospect of calling that village in, after the tragic loss of your husband. Right? And trying to maintain that sense of joy. I lost my father when I was 12, so my mother became a widow, as well.

She’s here with us right now being a part of that, that village. 

Elizabeth Alexander: Beautiful.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: What did the joy and the dancing and the village mean in the light of that really significant shift, obviously to your nuclear family. Um, but knowing there was so much more.

Elizabeth Alexander: Well, one of the things that I have found to be rich in such an ongoing way is that the people who might, my children were 11 and 12, when their father died, you know, out of the clear blue sky, seemingly and immediately.

And the fact that. Some of those people still, they will tell stories to my kids about their dad. You know, some of the stories that maybe I’ve never, if small encounters that that is ongoing and that I have said to those family friends, like, that’s your job, that’s your job till the end of time. And that when there are, you know, landmarks of graduations or coming of age, that, you know, our loved ones always bring their father into the room. 

One of the things that was very important to me when he passed is that I never wanted his name to be spoken in hushed tones. I wanted us always to be able to, you know, speak of him, to remember him. So sometimes it might mean that, you know, my kids would ask me a question and I would say like, that’s a daddy question.

Yeah. I was like, I don’t, I don’t know about that. It could be a sad moment, but also it wasn’t. It wasn’t a moment that was veiled with something else. Um, and I think, you know, we’re now getting ready. He was a painter and an amazing painter, and we’re getting ready to travel to Italy to see his work in the Venice Biennale.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Wow. That’s incredible. 

Elizabeth Alexander: And so it’s really remarkable. And so, you know, to see that, that he keeps spreading and other people are responding to his vision of the world. And that, that is something that belongs to my kids, um, is something that has continued, um, in village, as well. So, you know, it started with, you know, covered dishes at 5:30 every day when, you know, people just fed us. Just fed us for a long time. 

And that those folks also included my students. I was a professor at the time, that they were a part of the village. And I hope that something that my children will always remember. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: That is so beautiful. I appreciate you sharing that with us. I know that trip will be a really powerful one.

Elizabeth Alexander: Yes. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: You talk about this. Tapestry that is woven throughout the book, uh, through multiple mediums, through the poetry, through the art, through the pros and what’s woven so beautifully is how you speak about motherhood. Black motherhood. Um, so vividly, I want to read one passage. You write: Let’s be clear about what motherhood is: A being comes onto this earth and you are charged with keeping it alive. It dies if you do not tend it, it is as simple as that. Those words are, I, you know, powerful as they are chilling. Right? What, what reactions do you get from people who read the book? Are there moments that you have found when people encounter the work that have really stuck with you?

Elizabeth Alexander: Um, well, uh, you know, what’s been exciting is the book is it’s a, it’s a week old baby in the world. And already, I think about Mitchell Jackson’s really extraordinary review in The New York Times. And he’s a writer who I, I, I truly revere and all of the things that he saw in the book, you know, to feel like it’s starting to have its many conversations. And, um, indeed the one that you mentioned, and I had wanted actually just to read you a little bit around that, a paragraph on the other side, because I think that it is a central idea in the book.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Oh, absolutely. 

Elizabeth Alexander: I believed I could keep my sons alive by loving them. Believed in the magical powers of complete adoration and a love ethic that would permeate their lives. My love was armor when they were small. My love was armor when their father died of a heart attack. They think Black men only die when they get shot. My older son said in the aftermath. My love was armor when that same year our community’s block watch sent emails, warning residents, about two Black kids on bikes and praising neighbors who had called the police on them. My love for my children said, move. My love said follow your sons. When they ran into the dark streets of New York to join protesters after Eric Garner’s killer was acquitted.

When my sons were in high school and pictures of Philando Castile were on the front page of The Times I wanted to burn all the newspapers. So they would not see the gun coming in the window. The blood on Castile’s face. The terror in his partner’s face and the eyes of his witnessing baby girl. But I was too late, too late generationally because they were not looking at the newspaper.

They were looking at their phones where the image was a house of mirrors straight to hell. My love was both rational and fantastical. Can I protect my sons from being demonized? Can I keep them from moving free? But they must be able to move as free as the wind. If I listened to their fears, will I comfort them?

If I share my fears, will I frighten them? Will racism and fear disable them? If we ignore it, will it go away? Will dealing with race, fill their minds like stones and block them from thinking a million other things? 

So I read that, you know, and then, you know, go on from there to talk about thriving and being fully alive because you know, that is a mother’s mania, right? 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yes.

Elizabeth Alexander: You know that. So, so to me in that place, I’m talking to myself. I’m talking to every mother ever. I’m trying to talk so that the children can’t hear it. Right? I’m trying to work it through. I’m trying to say all the things, so that I can work through to the light. And I do think that that is where also community and talking to each other is absolutely crucial. 

I don’t think there’s a thing that Black mothers have not been through on this Earth. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Amen to that. 

Elizabeth Alexander: You know? And then I go because literature is real life to me. So I think about Toni Morrison’s Beloved and the Sermon on the Mount where it’s like, you know, love thyself. You know, unloose thyself for yonde they do not love you. Love your hands. Love the dark, dark liver. They may not love you elsewhere. They may harm us elsewhere, but what is the clearing? What is the light that we can come into together and love ourselves and each other? And let that make us strong. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: And love ourselves and each other. And let that make us strong.

I mean, these are the things I feel like we have to tattoo across our hearts, right? To see in the mirror, in the moments when it feels too dark and to remind each other when we’re feeling not just lonely but alone. I think one of the interesting things you really pick up on in the book, both in your writing, but also the way that you’ve intentionally crafted it is you’re talking about the really the intergenerational responsibility of this work. 

You say there is no progress without generations working together. And there is no north star without vigorous creativity to imagine it for us and to mark where it lights the way. Talk to me about the role of creativity in that intergenerational conversation and relationship. What can art do to create these radical solutions as say?

Elizabeth Alexander: Well, I really think that the power of imagination, the power of visioning, the power of being able to say it may not be here this way in the, in the right now, but I can see it. So I think that’s a super power. I think that’s something that has always been present in all societies. There have always been people painting on caves and singing songs collectively.

And communities telling the story of themselves to each other through song and through image. That is forever and everywhere. I think it’s, it’s actually indelible and I think human beings need it. I also think that in the long Black freedom struggle, we have seen the power of creativity and the power of expression in so many of our leaders and our people.

You know, if you think about Dr. King and you know that repeated, I may not get there with you. I may not get there with you, but I can see. I can see. You know, when he says my eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord, you see in him somewhere who is visioning, what has not yet come.

And visioning what he would not live to see, but visioning it so here to the creativity to figurative language, so that we can keep going there. And so I think there’s also a really important argument about, um, intergenerational and not just with living elders, but also, you know, elders who have become ancestors and, you know, understanding.

I mean, I think. You know, the older you get, you know, you, you want to say like, you know, you kids, you going to have to figure it out. And that’s why just that little snippet of, you know, when my kids went out into the street, I mean, they were whatever they were 15 and 16. You know, these big, tall hoodie wearing six-foot five, six foot, you know, I was terrified.

I thought, like, not tonight. But then I thought, well, I’m going with you and I’m going with you not because I can necessarily do anything to protect you, but because we believe this and because I will never leave your side. Right now it’s literally. It’ll have to be figurative because, you know, you grow up and out.

So after George Floyd was killed, they, you know, were with their friends in the middle of the pandemic, like shutting down the highway in New Haven. I, you know, I wasn’t there. I didn’t need to be there. Didn’t need to be in the highway. But the point is that that’s what solidarity is. And I think that’s what it also means to believe that there doesn’t have to be a generation gap.

You know, and that people who have done some living have some things to share. And for me as a teacher, I feel like, okay, I got all this poetry, I got all this art. And I also have the power of critical thinking. That is the legacy of African-American studies that says that you can love something. You can love your country and question it.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yes, indeed. 

Elizabeth Alexander: You can talk about and analyze how it could be made more fair and more just. Those two things aren’t at odds. You know, I do stay hopeful even as we struggle and I do stay joyful even as, as we worry. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Before I let you go, I want to tap into some of that hope and that imagination. The last chapter of the book is called “There are Black People in the Future”, drawn, of course from that, um, Alisha Wormsley work. You meditate really on Black freedom on Black futurism on that hope on whatever that vision is. Talk to us about what it takes to imagine Blackness in the future. And, um, I’m really curious just what your vision is for us and your best hopes.

Elizabeth Alexander: Oh my goodness. Biggest question ever. Biggest question ever. You know, I think that artists and poets may not have answers, but they do have vision. And they do go deep inside themselves to do the hard work of bringing something back to us that is human, that is soul,  that is light. And that is what the substance of hope is.

I think also, you know, the book really is an exhortation to study, to study, to history, to critical thinking. And to finally in the case, you know, I talk about John Hope Franklin. That, you know, race is at the center of the American story. It always has been. And so I think that to understand that there is nothing at odds with Americanness in the racial conversation and to be empowered with that knowledge is to me, you know, I’m sort of describing a methodology that I think gives us the strength that we have to keep moving forward.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Elizabeth Alexander your words always cut right to the heart of the matter. I have so much to reflect on just from this quick conversation with you even more to reflect on as I visit and revisit and revisit The Trayvon Generation and much of your work. Thank you so much for spending time with us and thank you for how you help us paint a vision of the future.

Elizabeth Alexander: Thank you, Brittany. I really, really am honored and quite joyful to be here with you.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Elizabeth Alexander is an essayist and a poet and her new book, The Trayvon Generation is out now. She’s also president of the Mellon Foundation.

Ooh, y’all. I aspire to give my child and everyone I encountered the kind of love Elizabeth spoke of. One both rational and fantastical. One that keeps him grounded and firm and steadfast, but that also lifts him to heights unknown, knowing that if he can imagine it, he can have it. He can be it. I came up working in education in a time when we’d often say you can’t be it if you can’t see it.  

We’d often tout that line to promote representation and teacher leadership and allowing kids of color to access career paths by seeing people who look like them and previously unattainable roles. And most certainly, someone is thinking they can be a judge because of Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson or president because of VP  Kamala Harris.

But the more I think about it, the more I want to be clear with baby M that sometimes you gotta be at precisely because you can’t see it. And I pray that one day he writes a vision so clear and so profound, he amazes even himself. And then he goes out and grabs it. And that my friends is how we set ourselves free.

That’s it for today, but never for tomorrow.

 

UNDISTRACTED is a production of The Meteor and Pineapple Street Studios. 

 Treasure Brooks is our correspondent. 

Our lead producer is Rachel Ward. 

Our associate producers are Alexis Moore and Marialexa Kavenaugh. 

Thanks also to Hannis Brown, Raj Makhija, and Davy Sumner. 

 Our executive producers at The Meteor are Cindi Leive and myself, and our executive producers at Pineapple are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Max Linsky. 

You can follow me at @MsPackyetti on all social media. I promise it will not be all about changing diapers. And you can follow our amazing team @TheMeteor. 

Subscribe to UNDISTRACTED and rate us on Apple Podcast or wherever you check out your favorite podcasts. 

Thanks for listening. Thanks for being. Thanks for doing. I’m Brittany Packnett Cunningham. Let’s go get free.

LEARN MORE ABOUT UNDISTRACTED

UNDISTRACTED: April 7, 2022

“I’ve Been Proud So Many Times”: A Texas Family Fights the Anti-Trans Laws

Please note: This transcript has been automatically generated.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Hey, y’all it’s Brit. So there is a woman in Florida named Tiffany Justice. She has four school-aged children and she’s the founder of a group she calls Moms for Liberty. She has used that network of around 80,000 parents to push for a new law that the Human Rights Campaign says is discriminatory and dangerous. It seeks to silence teachers from talking about LGBTQ plus issues or.

Further stigmatizing and isolating LGBTQ plus kids. The legislation is HB 1557, the so-called Parental Rights and Education Bill, and it was signed into law last week. You probably know it as the, Don’t Say Gay bill and Tiffany Justice says the law will and I quote, “fight transgender contagion in America.”

Now it will be easy for me to get snarky about Tiffany Justice because the only contagion I see sweeping the nation is unabashed, unashamed, bigotry, and hate parading as prophesy. Because from Florida to Texas to school libraries across the country, this bullshit is catching. The rights it seems only belong to the white conservative Christian parents and never the parents of color, the queer parents, the trans-parents, or the parents who very simply give a damn to raise better children.

Then I think of her four school-aged children and I can’t be snarky. I think of all the children of those 80,000 parents committed to dragging us back into the dark ages, one school board meeting at a time. And I can’t be snarky about that because I’m afraid for them. I’m afraid for those among the 80,000 families who are queer or trans themselves potentially unsafe and unable to live their true lives.

And I’m afraid for all our children learning the language of hatred who will grow up prepared only to dominate and never to love the children who didn’t ask to be here by the way, and are very simply trying to find their way. They are the ones paying a very dear price for our sins. I won’t ask what we are becoming because in parts of many places, we’re seeing an emboldened version of who we’ve always been.

But it’s not who we have to be because we are UNDISTRACTED.

On the show today, I’ll be talking to Willow and Owen Edgerton, a daughter, father pear that live in Austin, Texas, 

Willow Egerton: specifically with trans non binary kids. Trust me when I say your child will be a million times happier. If you support them, if you respect them as a person and help them out, sometimes they will.

So much happier as themselves than as a lie.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: That’s coming up but first. It’s the news.

Oh, listen, a law that would make performing an abortion, a felony passed the Oklahoma legislature Tuesday and is headed to the desk of a governor who will undoubtedly sign it under the law abortion providers could be sentenced up to 10 years in prison and face a fine of up to $100,000. This law does not just affect Oklahomans.

According to data collected by the university of Texas at Austin, 45% of patients who can’t access abortion care in Texas because of its new strict laws, travel up to 10 hours to receive care in Oklahoma. And now they won’t be able to. Now there is a backup. The law will likely be blocked by the courts because for now, thanks to Roe vs. Wade abortion is legal in the U.S. But I want you to listen very closely. Roe is not permanent. We’re waiting on that ruling from the Supreme court on Dobbs versus Jackson women’s health organization. That case is very likely to overturn Roe. That means without Congress coming to the aid of pregnant people everywhere and protecting the right to control our own bodies, all the laws that state legislatures have passed to outlaw abortion constrain when you can access it, to punish doctors and pregnant people, to allow random people, to sue an Uber driver for taking you to a clinic, all that shit becomes real.

And the worst part is. We’re kind of playing a waiting game. Like we’re just twiddling our thumbs, trying to find out if the conservative majority on the Supreme court is really going to overturn nearly 50 years of precedent. The vote on the Oklahoma bill was thrown onto the agenda of the legislature on Monday night and voted on with nearly no debate. 

Like I said, practically a suppressed. This is why we have to stay on state legislatures. They are down there in their capitals, scheming to ban a procedure that nearly two thirds of Americans believed should be legal without Roe the right to choose your destiny comes down to where you live. And that simply is not what freedom is.

Let’s move on to some good news. First of all, I know you saw that huge victory out of Staten island, right? A group of workers has created the first ever union at an Amazon warehouse. This is huge. They’re calling it the biggest labor victory in a generation. It’s absolutely epic and it has to be celebrated.

And I want to shout out another victory that happened this week. That didn’t quite trend as hard, but it meant a lot to me. In Sacramento, California, the teachers’ union has reached a deal with the school district to return to classrooms. They’ve been on strike for 12 days protesting the fact that their healthcare benefits were being reduced and that they continue to be overworked in light of the ongoing pandemic shortage.

One of those striking teachers is the cousin I was just connected with after Finding Your Roots, Morgan Coble Garrett, and she made the case quite clear. 

Morgan Coble Garrett: I’m a single mom of three. And when my pay is getting docked, it’s very hard to be present. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: That’s what I’m talking about, cuz tell them the truth.

Thanks to the thoughtful organizing of you and your fellow teachers. They won! Sacramento teachers secured an ongoing salary increase of 4% and the reinstatement of a policy, which pays for 100% of health coverage as it should be. The Sacramento strike was one of several that have happened in the past weeks.

Teachers in California, Minnesota, and Illinois have also hit the picket line to demand better from their district. And I get it. Teachers are going through it. Folks want to act like teachers should never strike, but in addition, so the threat of illness from COVID-19 teachers have spent the last two years stretching themselves to make up for the fact that many of their colleagues have had to leave.

And that’s on top of the reality that teaching, you know, because it’s historically, how do we like to put it, women’s work, has been underpaid and under-resourced, since the turn of the century. Teacher salaries have been on the decline in much of the country. As a former member of the Washington teachers union myself, I love to see teachers standing up for the profession that everyone needs and everyone should value. So it’s a good week for workers. That’s us. Let’s keep it going.

From one building block of a thriving middle-class to another home ownership. Now while redlining, which is the practice of denying mortgages to people who live in certain, usually Black neighborhoods may have officially ended in 1968, its effects are still plaguing us today. New research out of the university of Washington and UC Berkeley shows that areas that were redlined in the 1930s had higher levels of pollution in 2010, 80 years later. The study shows that residents who live in neighborhoods where banks refused to lend to buyers in Seattle Tacoma and Spokane Washington still to this day are exposed to a higher level of air pollutants. That’s because their neighborhoods are closer to the sources of pollution, like highways and industrial facilities. And historically residents have had a harder time fending off those industrial polluters. This research is both astounding and not at all surprising because here’s the thing we’ve been knew. 

Black Americans are 40% more likely to have asthma than white Americans. And the predominantly Black residents of Louisiana so-called cancer alley are 50 times more likely to develop cancer than the average American and those polluters look, our systems of oppression are deeply interconnected. Follow me on this, the presence of a polluter, like a chemical plant means that banks divest.

The pollution drives up the rates of illnesses and the cost of medical bills. While low home ownership rates make it hard to bring in enough property tax revenue to tackle any of those issues and countless Black and brown communities across the country. Industrial facilities have closed up shop, but they have refused to clean up their.

That was 80 years ago, but people made those decisions about whose life has value and whose doesn’t. And 80 years later, those folks are still being written off. So I ask you, who are we writing off now? Who have we forgotten? Whose pain have we decided is just the price of doing business? Who do we need to be organizing with and doing mutual aid beside, in order to divest from those interconnected systems of harm.

That’s what the story made me wonder. That’s the work we got to do.

Coming up my conversation with Willow Edgerton, a young activist for trans rights in Texas, right after this short break.

And we are back. So. The kids are safe. A judge in Texas has blocked an order from governor Greg Abbott to take effect had that not happened. The directive would have required mandatory reporters like family doctors, teachers, and school nurses to report when children are receiving gender affirming medical care.

And that’s because the governor of Texas and the state attorney general think that that care is child abuse based on a memo written by the AG back in February. Let’s be very clear. It is not. Let me tell you what gender affirming care is though. It’s so that a child has more time to understand their gender.

It might be laser hair removal. It might be speech therapy. It might be therapy therapy, but no matter what it looks like it is care and not abuse. And it is most certainly private. It is not the purview of state politicians looking to score political points by demonizing children. Children like Willow Luna Edgerton.

I spoke with her and her father Owen. They live in Austin, Texas, and watch out Greg Abbott because you, are not about to score a single point. Willow Owen, thank you so much for taking the time to sit down and talk with us here at undistracted. I’m so excited to talk to you both. 

Owen Egerton: Thanks for having us.

Willow Egerton: I’m so excited to talk to you. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: So I really want to get a sense, first of who you are, do you mind introducing yourselves? Willow we’ll come to you first. 

Willow Egerton: Yeah, so, uh, my name is Willow Luna Edgerton. I appreciate compliments about it because I picked it myself.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: It is beautiful.

Willow Egerton: I am a 13 year old trans. That lives in Austin, Texas, and, uh, you know, trying to speak up for my rights. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Well, we’ll get the chance to do lots of that. And we always appreciate folks that do it. Owen how about you? 

Owen Egerton: I’m Owen Edgerton. I didn’t pick my name, but I like it too. And I accept compliments and I’m the very proud parent of Willow and, uh, and another daughter who’s 16. Um, my wife and I, Jody, and we live here in Austin, Texas, and I’m a novelist in a film.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Well, it is more than a pleasure to meet the both of you. Both of you have fantastic names. I didn’t pick my name either, but I feel like I’ve grown into it. We are so grateful to you all for joining us all the way from Austin, Texas. Um, there is plenty for us to get into, but I really want our community to get to know you all.

I’d love to know a little bit more about you all’s family. Are there, are there particular traditions that you all have? That are different from other families? I know for my family growing up in St. Louis, Missouri in the summertime. No matter what was happening in the world. Every Monday, our family got together, our extended family got together for catfish and spaghetti.

Like, I don’t know, just because it was Monday. Are there any traditions that are unique to you all?

Owen Egerton: Yeah, I think we, we got a goofy little family, you know, we’re we got this little house in south Austin and, uh, we make a lot of movies as Willow was saying. And, uh, so we’ve got like props leftover from horror movies that like around our house, which is kind of strange.

And we have little names. I’m like, oh, there’s the murder table. And there’s the monster in the corner.

Willow Egerton: One specific tradition that is, uh, somewhat similar to what you’re talking about is every new years we take a loaf of bread. And throw it around like really hard until it’s like, just like mashed up bread bits.

And then the next morning we make French toast out of it. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Oh nice. 

Owen Egerton: That’s what we do the stroke of midnight. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah. I might have to steal that because mostly just cause I love French toast. So if we borrow that tradition in our household, please know that I will give you all credit. 

Willow Egerton: But it is very challenging to make French toast out of mashed up bread bits. It’s not always exactly French toast. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: But it’s probably always delicious. 

Owen Egerton: Yes. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: I’m also just curious about your family’s priorities. Right? I can tell creativity, abounds. I can tell clearly like a lot of fun and laughter, um, is always at the forefront. What are kind of the most important rules in your family?

I know that at least once a month, my parents made me–my brother and myself do book reports at dinner, which was like, oh, well we got to pick the book. Right. But it was like an oral report. Right. So I would read, um, the autobiography of Frederick Douglas and I’d have to talk about that kind of stuff.

Are there rules or priorities that really, you feel like characterize your family?

Willow Egerton: We don’t actually have that much stuff. Uh, I would say my, uh, parents kind of raised us more like as a bunch of friends and less like we’re above you and we’re you’re like it rulers. And, um, I mean, if I ever have kids, that’s definitely how I’d raised them too.

Probably. Yeah. So that was, that’s not really a huge thing. I don’t know. No drugs. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Well, yeah. That’s important. Anything else? Owen, that you feel like when you really are thinking about, you know, the kind of children you want to raise, the kind of family you want to have, what are those, those priorities that you all have set.

Owen Egerton: Jodie and I, we talked a lot about like, what kind of parenting, what kind of family that we wanted to raise. And we, we learned a bunch from both our sets of parents, which we’re really, really grateful for. And I think the two things that kind of led our parenting have been number one would be kindness.

I mean, I think if there’s ever like a rule in our house, it’s be kind. And then the other one is play. Uh, you know, Jodie and I, we met doing improv together. We were in the same improv troupe back in the day. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Oh my God. I love that. 

Owen Egerton: And so we think it’s really important to, you know, do something silly. If it’s raining, let’s all run outside and jump around or, you know, let’s enjoy what we’re doing and take play really seriously.

And that leads into our careers and our relationships and definitely our household of how, how we spend a day. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Owen, I’m so curious. If at all, you had conversations about gender with your children. How did you talk about it when they were growing up? Where were you trying to nurture any particular values in them?

Owen Egerton: Jody and I’ve always had the idea of the value that we’ve nurtured is finding who you are. And growing into that, we were, I think really lucky also to have some great examples of some parents who were just a little ahead of us who had kids who identified as gender fluid or non-binary, and were already sort of dealing in thinking with these, some of these issues.

And then we had the great advantage of having Willow, who really early on starting around uh, younger than second grade, it was like, Ooh, I’m not into this boy or girl, or someone’s got to tell me the day I’m born. You know what? My gender was just not into that. And that led the way for us, like, oh, okay.

Let’s, let’s be open and, and, and learn and talk about all those things. And that’s been true actually for Willow and her friends. It’s, it’s just a cool generation of kids. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: It is the kids are absolutely. All right. Willow. Your dad’s talking about, you know, learning this word when you’re around age seven or eight, this concept of gender fluidity.

Tell us more about what was interesting to you about this and tell us more, just kind of about how you processed it, as you learned about this word, this concept. 

Willow Egerton: So pretty much before then, even right. I had always been like, I want to be a girl. No. And be a boy. Yeah. I don’t know. Right. And then I heard this word, gender fluid and it described me really well.

Cause I was like, oh yeah, I’m not, I’m not quite either. Right. So I started using that for awhile. I’ve always been pretty accepting of myself if you will. Because like, from a young age I was taught like this is super normal. Yeah. So definitely other people had a hard time adjusting, but I think learning about like the trans community and stuff really helped me be a lot happier.

Cause like for a while I went by non binary, right. Exclusive they, them pronouns. And then I was like, Hm, I, kinda wanna be a girl too. And then like the trans community specifically, some of my trans friends told me about a term called Demi girl, which is like, you know, kind of non binary kind of girl. And I was like, oh my God, that’s so much better.

And then I became so much happier afterwards. So really this whole thing has just made me a lot happier. 

Owen Egerton: Yeah. You know, of course you here in Texas, we’ve been having all this, uh, gosh, I dunno. Uh, from the governor down, uh, harassment, I would say of families of trans kids and trying to define gender affirming care in one way or another as child abuse.

And when some of the stuff was just breaking in the news, I got a text from a good friend of mine who lives out of state lives in California. And this friend was saying, oh, I’m so sorry for Willow. Oh my goodness. What a horrible time, you know, to, to, to be alive and this situation. And I remember at the moment I was dropping Willow off at school and she’s wearing her trans pride, knee high socks, and is waving at friends.

Owen Egerton: And it was this reminder that there’s such a community of support from our family to our extended family, to our school, to our friends. And I’ve just seen that be like really wonderful. So when Willow came out as trans, which was about a year ago, we saw like, oh my gosh, the great experience of watching your kid become more of who they are.

It was great. You know, it was like, it’s like when you watch a flower bloom, you know, you watching the sunrise, you’re like, oh yeah, this is becoming more and more who they are meant to be. And that’s just been [00:20:00] like a real. Wonderful experience to see. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Willow what was that conversation like with your parents as you are becoming more of yourself?

Willow Egerton: Really, the first conversation was, you know, my mom came up to me and was like, hey, I have this friend who has this kid who identifies as gender fluid. Right. I think this might be similar to what you’re experiencing. And I was like, oh my God, that’s totally it. Right. And then I decided to use she, they pronouns and I just, they were like, oh, that’s cool.

When I decided to change my name, when I was researching a bunch of names, they were also there, you know, helping me find more names and using the names I wanted. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: What led you to Willow Luna?

Willow Egerton: Yeah, pretty much. The reason I got Willow is I have like a huge Google doc of names. Right? Cause like, if I’m going to pick a name, that’s probably my name for like the rest of my life.

It’s gotta be good. Right. So I was down to like five names or so, and I tried to Alice and I realized it just didn’t fit me. So then I tried out Willow and Moxie and Willow just stuck the most.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: It’s such a, having a Google doc of all of your name choices is like the most generational thing I’ve ever heard.

That’s like, it’s so pretty. It just perfectly encapsulates how intentional you all are about everything. And I love it. Willow were the conversations that you had with your, with your parents and with your family, were they different than the ones you had with your friends or with your teachers? 

Willow Egerton: probably a little bit.

I’ll be completely honest with you talking about being trans with CIS people versus trans. Super different. Like if you were talking about deciding to go on like HRT or hormone blockers, right. A lot of times is my own personal experience. And a lot of people, I talked to you about this experience too, but sometimes even talking about that with like a CIS person, they’re like, oh, well here’s all the downsides.

You’re super brave for this, but also here’s the bad thing. But also, you know, like, And then with like other trans people, it’s just like, woo. Yeah, you did it. You know, like, it’s easier to talk about these subjects with people who understand them personally.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: You know, Owen listening to, to Willow talk about this.

I’m curious about your parenting in this moment, right? You talked about the many ways in which Texas, among many other states, unfortunately are perpetually politicizing and criminalizing people’s identities. What did you think parenting was going to be like when Willow first started affirming her gender versus what it’s actually been like? 

Owen Egerton: Oh, what a great question. So Willow started pretty early on, basically declaring I’m not going to give into this binary system. And it was an interesting, like for, for me, I was like, oh, that’s, that’s different. My wife was a little bit ahead of me and knew a lot more. And, and I was like, I’m going to be learning.

I tell you this though. I knew of course from day one with Willow and with our older daughter as well. I was going to be proud and I’ve been proud so many times one of the wonderful surprise things that I don’t know if I would have foreseen. How proud I am of Willow being an outspoken trans person of how proud I am of her being, who she is, embracing who she is and not letting bullies even if that bully happens to sit in the capital of the state in any way impede on that journey.

That makes me so proud. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Willow, what does it feel like hearing that you probably hear it all the time. 

Willow Egerton: Yeah, it’s really nice to know. I have so much support, you know, it’s really nice how my family has never like, tried to assume things about me really, you know, and how open they are to change and how ready they are to hear me out.

If I’m like, oh, I suddenly want to use different pronouns. They’re ready for that. You know, or if they’re not ready for it, they’re ready to change and learn how to be. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: That flexibility seems like a critically important part. What do you want other parents of, I won’t even just say other parents of trans or non-binary kids to know just what do you want other parents to know, period?

Willow Egerton: Well specifically with trans non binary kids. I would say, trust me when I say your child will be a million times happier. If you support them, if you respect them as a person and help them out, sometimes they will be so much happier as themselves than as a lie. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: mm Hmm. You know, I asked it that way in part, because your parents didn’t necessarily know that this was going to be their parenting experience until you started having those conversations. Right. And so, you know, my husband and I are talking about having kids and we’re thinking about the kind of parents that we want to be. And like all of the things that one could anticipate, all of the things that we don’t know that we don’t know.

Right. And, and what about. Folks who, who parents who may walk into, um, an experience down the road where one or more of their children comes and has the kind of conversations that you had with their parents. What, what are you hoping that those parents would have been thinking about and talking about? I would say 

Willow Egerton: if you haven’t already, by the time you’re like thinking about having kids with your partner, probably make sure that in those situations you’ve similar ideas.

Like if one person is really against trans people. And the other one loves him. Maybe talk that out before having kids.

Owen Egerton: Yeah, 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: For sure. 

Willow Egerton:  I mean, it might come up that this more time, if you’re like talking about having kids and talking about your types of parents, you want to be, my biggest thing is be ready to be flexible and be ready to be supportive because a lot of trans people, we don’t instantly know that we’re trans it’s so much more complex than that. Say your kid like me has gone through one or two different sets of pronouns that I like to use. Just be flexible. 

Owen Egerton: I think what Willow said, like pretty wise words there about talking about and being flexible? I think, you know, one of the big things too.

And this is I suppose, in any relationship, but just like the importance of listening kids can really sense when you’re not really listening. And I guess anybody can, and there’s few things that can be as dampening on a situation as when you are aware that the person you’re trying to tell something to is not really listening to you.

And this happens to kids so often, happens to children all the time where they saying like, this is what I’m experiencing. This is what I’m feeling. And so many times. We as parents will be like, oh, that’s a phase or no, you’re not really feeling that. And I know I’ve been guilty of that. And so I think the big thing that I’ve learned, you know, over these last few years, it’s like, go ahead and listen, go ahead and listen and talk and good things come from that. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Owen are there things you think parents. Worry about that they don’t need to be worrying about? 

Owen Egerton: In this journey earlier on and even a year or so back, I was like, okay, she’s going to come out as trans. And I was so worried that society was going to be like the society that I grew up in an east Texas, that there was going to be like, oh, My gosh, this is going to lead to all these horrible things.

But what I have seen is how many people in, in our culture are just there for her in a way that I just don’t feel was possible when I was growing up. And that includes like friends and school and stuff like that, but also like our immediate family. I mean, watching my mom come across the room and give Willow this big hug and say how much he loved her when, when we announced the news to the grandparents was just amazing. So I think, and I think we all said it this way. If your kids are talking about being nonbinary, being trans and wanting to say that to the world, there’s of course scary things like government orders. And as some of the legislation that’s being passed in different states in the country, there’s so much more to be excited about than there is to be afraid of.

There’s so much more to celebrate than there is to hide. And there’s just so much more benefit and happiness than there is to be afraid of a cowering from. So I think that’s the big thing of like celebrate with your kid. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Willow, I want to talk a little bit about some of your work, because excuse me for the phrasing Owen.

It’s really dope shit. You started the GSA at your school, which is absolutely incredible. I know from personal experience that organizing work is not easy work. It is often thankless. It takes many, many hours. It’s difficult to learn. And I started when I was about your age. So tell folks in our audience who don’t know what GSA stands for and why you started this particular club.

Willow Egerton: Yeah. So the club’s official name is the GSA Advocates for the Youth or for short GAY, but GSA specifically stands for gender sexuality Alliance. So it’s the club for LGBTQIA plus people to go right. And be in a supportive environment. What we do mostly is we’re trying to make our school campus, um, much more friendly place for queer students.

So for example, we’ve, we’re trying to get, uh, dead names off our school’s website. We held a little Valentine’s day event. Officially it was called love is love day. They made me call it that I wanted to call it gay day. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Well, we say gay, right? Yeah. But then like 

Willow Egerton: Yeah. But then like day of they were like, Willow. I don’t think we can do that.

And I was like, you know what? You’re right. So it’s called love is love day.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Next year. 

Willow Egerton: Next year. Next year. Maybe high school. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: There you go. I know that everyone doesn’t know what dead names are, right? 

Willow Egerton: So there’s many different names for a dead name, pretty much. It’s when a trans person changes their name, it’s their name assigned at birth.

Some people call them dead names. That’s probably the most common way. A lot of people will call them like their legal names or their old names, all that stuff. No one needs to know it. No one needs to know your dead name, different trans people have kind of different levels of how much they don’t like their deadname if you will, for me, I call it my dead name because I’m like want it gone. Nope. Nothing to do with it. But other people are like, yeah, it’s just my legal name. So it’s like, it’s a very strange thing. Uh, emotions wise because it’s like something that used to be so connected to you now you want to be as far away from as possible.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: And so what is the issue specifically that you’re trying to resolve with deadnaming and your school’s website. 

Willow Egerton: Right. So what would happen is on the school website which is where everything is, right. What were they would do is they would put the legal name first or the dead name, right. And then in parentheses your real name, which is an issue for a couple of reasons.

First one being. People know your dead name now, which is never fun. And another reason is like a substitute teacher, right? You’re reading off attendance. Are you going to look at the name in parenthesis or the name that’s first? You’re gonna look at the name that’s first, obviously. So students kept getting deadnamed specifically during the zoom school that would happen constantly.

And third, because of the whole Abbott letter, you know, report trans kids thing. We were worried that. Put a thing that says, Hey, this person’s trans look, look, it’s a trans person. Right. They can get reported by like maybe a sub that they didn’t thoroughly check enough or student. Right. That’s the main reasons why.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Okay. So we’ve been talking around this. This avid thing, let’s get all the way into it. State legislatures across the country. And of course in Texas specifically have been targeting trans kids and their families for a while now. But it’s really ramped up in 2022. Right. This is not new, but there is some added energy around this particular kind of hate.

Willow. And then, Owen I definitely want to hear from you as well. How has this affected your family? 

Willow Egerton: So it’s definitely been pretty scary having all this stuff happen and. Having people in power want me gone? You know, it’s not, it’s not very fun. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Owen what about for you. 

Owen Egerton: It’s been about a month since Paxton them gave the non-binding legal opinion that led to Abbott’s order to investigate any family that might be doing any kind of gender affirming care, uh, for child abuse.

Uh, and it has been stressful. So. Part has been sometimes infuriating. Sometimes it makes us want to just like protest and yell. And sometimes quite frankly, we do want to hide when we’re invited on like your podcast. We’re excited to talk about our stories and then maybe the next month. We’re also like, gosh, maybe we shouldn’t because what could happen?

It’s sews fear and nothing good grows from sowing fear in that kind of way. So that’s been hard. The other side of it though, has been, we’ve also had a wave of support from friends all over the world who have been hearing about the situation and reaching out to us from every different part of our lives to say, we love you.

We support you. We’ve got your back.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: One of the responses I’ve tried to wrestle away from. Even some well-intentioned people is the reaction that like, well, if you don’t like it don’t live in Texas, like, you know, I think that sometimes people think that they’re coming up with some solution there, but, Owen, what’s your response to that?

Why is Texas important to you? 

Owen Egerton: I moved to Texas from England, with my family when I was a little kid and I’ve been very grateful to grow up in Texas. Very proud, Texan. I love Austin. Austin’s just been such a great home to me in so many ways. And at the same time when people say. I’m like, you know, you might be right.

Maybe like maybe there is going to be a time to get out of this state. I know Willow and I we’ve talked about it. What a sad thing for a state when you’re going to be, I mean, you’re going to be losing Willow, come on, state. Trust me. You want this kid! We talk about when a, you know, a big corporation leaves a state and protest, but sometimes you forget, like what about all the people that you’re going to be losing those situations. That’s it. Right now, we are here. Even if we end up in the future, whatever, somewhere else, we do want to stand up and fight, not just for the right, for Willow to be Willow, but also for the right of some kid who again, is too afraid to tell their parents who they really are.

Some kid who is carrying the message that the governor’s passing down. That as well as it’s like, you’re illegal. And you’re not wanted here and what you are is something wrong. And if your parents are supporting that, then that is a form of abuse. That’s hard message for those kids to hear again and again and again, they need, they need the voices of people, hugging them, cheering them on.

I mean, wherever we are in the world, we are going to be louder in our love than the screaming hate. Even if it’s coming from as loud, a megaphone as the governor’s mansion. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: I’m also just thinking about those families that can’t afford to pick up and leave Texas, right? That, that is actually a, a choice that they very simply can’t make so true when we hear about.

Legislation about trans young people. It’s most often coming from people who are not trans and who aren’t even in school who don’t play or haven’t played or don’t even care about or support the sports that they seem to have so much commentary. I love to hear Willow what you have to say to those lawmakers.

If attorney general, Ken Paxton or governor Greg Abbott was sitting right next to me right now. I, after I elbowed them in the side, what would you want to say to them? 

Willow Egerton: I’d probably say you are a child. Abbott did something wrong. He messed up the power grid. And instead of. Being like, oh, I’m sorry, let’s fix everything.

He said, ah, ah, children, I’m so scared. I’m scared of those children over there, that minority of children that can’t really defend themselves because they don’t have a voice and society, everyone go attack them. And that is childish, immature and stupid. And no one who thinks like that should be the leader of a massive state of a massive country.

Just they’re blaming a bunch of children so that they can look better to other children that also hate us for God knows why, I guess they would say, God knows why, but, uh, or the trans-sport ban. Right. It’s just like, do you care? Yeah. Trans athletes have been allowed to compete in the Olympics for like years now, but people only care when it’s a distraction from them being assholes.

So maybe just stop being assholes. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: I mean, this is deeply astute political commentary. I’m not being sarcastic. I’m being very serious because your clear understanding. That your humanity is being used both as a wedge issue and as a distraction from him not taking responsibility for all of his constituents or for things like the power grid in that winter freeze out that we saw devastate so many parts of Texas.

I mean, it is just a deeply astute assessment of what’s happening. Owen what would you have to say to them right now? 

Owen Egerton: You know, honestly, if you had Ken Paxton and Greg Abbott there with you. I don’t think I would have anything to say to them. I believe that the people I want to talk to are not them. I think they’ve chosen not to hear.

And so instead, the people I would want to talk to are the people who feel that maybe they don’t have a stake in this particular argument that maybe they can be afraid of trans people. Cause they don’t necessarily think they know anybody who’s trans and this is not an issue for them. And they can believe that this is something scary or maybe they’re like.

Gosh. Yes. That’s a situation of a civil rights, but it’s not, you know, it’s not my family. I think those are the people I want to talk to. I mean, for lack of a better word in this situation, I guess I would say moderates. Yeah. But like, I’d be like, by the way, I know this might not be your family or maybe you don’t know that it’s your family or your neighbor, but it is, it is, this is civil rights, you know, Willow’s grandparents, my wife’s parents talk about marching for civil rights back in the 1960s and into the 1970s. And they are amazing. We are still doing this. We are still having to stand up for each other and that’s who I think need to hear the message for me. I’m like, I don’t know, Greg Abbott and Ken Paxton might be lost causes the people that I’m hoping will stand up and say, And act out are the rest of us. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Well, to be very clear, can packs and, and grit are not allowed at my house, but before I let you go, this last question is a little cheesy, but I’m also a little cheesy. So it just it’s on brand. But I really want to end on, on a hopeful note and Willow, I want to ask you, where do you see yourself in five years, 10 years?

Like, what is your dream future look like? 

Willow Egerton: I want to keep getting my voice out there. I want to be in some position where people are able to hear me, whether that’s a filmmaker or something else entirely. I don’t quite know yet, but I want to be in a situation where I am able to continue to speak my mind and people will listen.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Well, I don’t think you’re going to have any trouble speaking your mind. And I know that I, for one will absolutely be listening. I want to thank the both of you for having this conversation. I know it does not come without risk. And so from the very, very bottom of my. Thank you for being willing. And please know that if there’s absolutely anything I, or the rest of our undistracted family can do to stand in solidarity.

And I mean that very literally with you Willow with your family Owen, please do not hesitate to let us know. I have learned more about the kind of parent I want to be from listening to you, Owen and Willow. I have learned more about the kind of absolutely fantastic young person. I hope to raise one day.

So thank you. Thank you. Okay. 

Owen Egerton: Well, thank you. Thanks so much for having us. 

Willow Egerton: Thank you so much. Yeah, it’s been great being here.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Willow is an eighth grader, a filmmaker and an organizer from Austin, Texas. Her dad, Owen is a filmmaker and a novelist. Y’all don’t we want happy children. It’s not a question. I think we’d have to ask Willow, made it really clear. Your child will be a million times happier if you just support and respect them.

Isn’t that? What everyone? Isn’t that what everyone deserves. And despite the folks who are convinced that parenting is an exclusively top-down exercise, children actually do deserve our respect too. They are whole people with their own dreams and hopes loves, and yes, identity and our greatest hope should be that they find their way to themselves.

Feel free to exercise the agency. It takes to live their fullest lives. How small, how sad, how absolutely vile a person do you have to be to need to stop out of a child, their very existence to make yourself feel powerful. Now, Willow might say you yourself are a child which I’d agree with, except that’s an insult to children everywhere, especially perceptive, compassionate kids like Willow. Owen and Willow’s story of love truth, acceptance and support should not be rare. I should just be how family does at the very least it should be what our policies allow for so that our young trans folks can freely live the lives. They dream and find the family they need without threat of harm or erasure. That’s the kind of life we want for trans kids to be included because if they aren’t free, then neither are we.

That’s it for today, but never for tomorrow. UNDISTRACTED is a production of The Meteor and Pineapple Street Studios. 

Our lead producer is Rachel Ward. 

Our associate producers are Alexis Moore and Maria Lexa Kavanaugh.

Thanks also to Treasure Brooks, Hannis Brown, and Ana Aberstein.

Our executive producers at The Meteor are Cindi Leive and myself, and our executive producers at Pineapple are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Max Linsky. 

 You can follow me @MsPackyetti on all social media and our fantastic team @TheMeteor. 

Subscribe to UNDISTRACTED and rate and review us y’all on Apple Podcast, Stitcher, or most places you check out your favorite podcasts. 

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UNDISTRACTED: March 31, 2022

“We See Who Pays the Price”: Muzoon Almellehan on War and Refugees

Please note: This transcript has been automatically generated.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Hey, y’all, it’s Brittany. It’s been just over a month since Russia began its unprovoked invasion of Ukraine on February the 24th. And like all of you, I’ve been watching in horror as cities have been ransacked and families have been displaced, as lives have been stolen. As NICU babies had to shelter in hospital basements.

So many of us have contributed to relief efforts, have shared news stories from the region and, not but, and in the days and weeks since we have been hearing many raise their voices about clear inequities between the response of the Ukrainian refugee crisis. And well, so many of the other refugee crises that have come before and many that are still happening, the viral humanitarian responses for Ukraine are absolutely the right thing to do.

And it is also the right thing to do for Syria. And for Yemen. The media coverage of the Ukrainian crisis is wall to wall. While stories about what many classify as genocide in the Tigray region of Ethiopia is hardly ever seen. The truth is this, when harm is done to people of color and the refugees are coming from nations across the global south, the response is racist, inadequate, and ultimately deeply harmful. 

And I share those complaints as does our entire team. So, we got a choice to make. We could amplify those very legitimate frustrations, especially about the lack of media coverage for displaced people worldwide. Or we could remember we are the media and just do it ourselves. So, hopefully this episode brings us into the lives of all displaced people. And from Ukraine to Honduras to Syria, deepens our value of one another’s humanity across the board. We are UNDISTRACTED.

On the show today, I’ll be talking to Muzoon Almellehan, UNICEF’s youngest Goodwill Ambassador about the world’s refugee crisis. 

Muzoon Almellehan: When the war happened, we see displaced children and women who really have nothing to do with what war.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: That’s coming up, but first it’s the news.

So, like I said, this week, we are going deep into what it means to be a refugee and how we can stand in solidarity with displaced people worldwide. So, let’s start here. As of this week, nearly 4 million Ukrainians have fled their homeland with more than 6 million people displaced inside the country. They have joined a particularly afflicted global community.

Dr. Serena Parekh: There are 84 million forcibly displaced people worldwide. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: This is Serena Parekh, professor of philosophy at Northeastern University and author of the book No Refuge: Ethics and the Global Refugee Crisis. Alongside the terrifying abuses they have faced, Professor Parex says Ukrainians are now being aided in at least one systemic way.

Dr. Serena Parekh: The really amazing thing that’s happened in Europe is the temporary protection directive. And what that means is that as soon as somebody crosses Ukraine into Poland, they are immediately given authorization to travel across Europe, to work in any country in the European union, and they’re given a bunch of help along the way. Access to education, access to healthcare, et cetera. While they’re waiting.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: That level of support for refugees is humane and necessary, but it isn’t usually what happens. In the early 2010s, Syrians, Afghans, and Iraqis fleeing violence in their homeland were initially tolerated or even welcomed in some European nations. But Professor Parekh says that by 2015, many countries were finding ways to skirt international law to avoid having to host asylum seekers at all, making deals with nations, like Turkey to house people or even funding the Libyan coast guard to intercept migrants in the Mediterranean Sea.

And the U S has been very little help. It’s been accepting drastically fewer refugees ever since September 11th and more recently has adopted policies like remain in Mexico for asylum seekers coming through south and central America and parts of the Caribbean. It’s a stark contrast to the displays of generosity that have greeted Ukrainians at Polish, Hungarian, and Romanian boarders.

Dr. Serena Parekh: We should be receiving all children, you know, with Teddy bears and chocolate bars, not batons and pepper spray, and not just of course, refugees who are quote unquote like us, but all refugees who ask for help.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Professor Parekh says the difference in treatment is in some ways complicated. And in other words, It’s really quite simple.

Dr. Serena Parekh: I think it is hard to ignore race, especially when we think about why it was that they were so determined to keep out refugees from other places. So it’s not merely that they’re treating Ukrainian refugees a little better than they treated other refugees. But it is a complex question and I, and I don’t want to reduce it to racism.

There’s many really understandable reasons why people sympathize both with people they see as like themselves, but also as people, they have connections to, they know many Ukrainians and they really see themselves in Ukrainians’ shoes. They think we know that could be us. If they don’t succeed, we could be the next country Russia attacks.

So they want to do everything they possibly can to support Ukrainian. So you can really understand why it is that there’s so much sympathy, but the problem is that human rights and refugee rights are not supposed to be based on sympathy, they’re supposed to be based on being human. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: It’s not just a matter of theoretical rights. It’s a matter of international law, which guarantees refugees rights. According to Caitlyn Chandler, a freelance journalist covering migration and security. 

Caitlin Chandler: You cannot send someone back to a country where they will face violence or persecution. However, how countries have interpreted these laws depends often on politics, Denmark, for instance is sending Syrians back to Syria, even though it’s not safe to return there.

And that’s something that I think is not just happening in the EU, but across wealthy countries globally. So, you also had Australia who was arresting refugees, trying to reach Australia and sending them to Papua New Guinea, where they were in detention centers. The US has also tried to stop people from crossing the border from Mexico and would like them to stay on the other side.

And this is a big shift in global asylum policy because the law says that you should be able to cross a border and then seek asylum. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Chandler also makes an interesting. Wealthier nations might be turning away refugees now, but we could be refugees in the future. 

Caitlin Chandler: I think we’re moving towards a future in which climate change is going to cause mass upheaval, mass migration, including within the US. It’s also going to be that Americans will be moving and migrating. So it’s absolutely in our best interest to think about how can we make that more humane now? How can we work towards changing these policies today. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Here’s where I want to leave us on this issue. Migration isn’t yet. And we have always known how we are supposed to treat migraine Islamic law states that individuals have the right both to seek and be granted asylum in any Muslim state. Leviticus of the Christian Bible and the Jewish Torah, instructs that when a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him or her or them as yourself.

Coming up, I’ll be talking to Muzoon Almellehan about fleeing Syria as a child and how the world can be more just in its treatment of refugees right after this short break. 

And we are back. It can be hard to put into words what is lost when families are displaced by war or hunger or drought. Families lose their ability to support each other. Workers lose their ability to support themselves. Children lose their friends, their schools, their sense of safety, and young girls risk losing their childhood.

Among Syrians, living in refugee camps in Lebanon, 40% of girls under the age of 18 are married. In Turkey, that number is 45%.  Families who fled to refugee camps often make the very difficult choice to find husbands for their daughters to try to protect them from violence or to stabilize their finances.

With child marriage puts girls at risk of injury or death during childbirth and causes them to leave school, putting them at a lifelong disadvantage. In 2013, when Muzoon Almellehan’s, family fled war in Syria to a refugee camp in Jordan, she was shocked by the number of children who had left school.

So at the age of 14, she began to campaign trying to convince parents that rather than marry off their daughters, they should keep them in school. Her activism and her education has continued even as she’s resettled in the United Kingdom and gone to university. She’s a UNICEF Goodwill Ambassador working to make sure children have access to school in emergency situations.

We wanted to talk to Muzzon about what it’s like to be displaced and what her hopes are for the global community of displaced people. 

Muzzon, thank you so much for having this conversation. It’s just a pleasure to meet you. 

Muzoon Almellehan: Me too. It has been a great pleasure to meet you, too. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Do you mind introducing yourself to our listeners?

Muzoon Almellehan: Yes, for sure. So, my name is and I am 23 years old. So, I will be 24 very soon next month. I am from Syria. And so I had to flee my homeland in 2013 and they lived in refugee camps for three years in Jordan. And I’m currently living and studying in the United Kingdom. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Well, happy birthday in advance. First of all. 

Muzoon Almellehan: Thank you so much.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: I hope that it’s a day full of joy and that your year ahead is full of abundance. You already talked a little bit about, um, having to flee Syria. Can you tell us about the day your family left?

Muzoon Almellehan: And so basically once the war started, we had really many, many challenges. Eh, our lives were changed upside down.

For example, we really didn’t have access to our basic needs and we lived in the war for two years. But the last days before fleeing, it becomes really dangerous to stay there. So the level of bombing and the level of fighting around us, it increased. Which forced us basically to take this difficult decision and to flee our country and our town.

So, the only option was to go to Jordan because it was really close to my hometown called Daraa, which is on south in Syria. Close to the border with Jordan. So, there was an option to go to the camp, Zachary camp. So my family and also my uncle’s family, basically, they both sat together and talked about it and they said the future is unknown. But we have no choice. 

We want to flee for our children, for their safety, for their education, for their life. And maybe we will stay just for a few days or for a month or so. Because no one expected the world will be extended like this for such a long time. So we thought that is just the short time we will stay there and then we can come back to Syria.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Um, what do you remember about the day that you left? 

Muzoon Almellehan: So, I remember it was a fairly sad day. It was like a dream because when you live in a place, since you were a child, you have all your friends, your relatives, your school, your neighbors, all the people you know. And suddenly all these things will disappear.

And you flee to a place which is brand new. We don’t know anything about the camp. It was such a new experience. And also we saw in the news how the situation is really difficult in the camp. So, we were afraid to flee and also sad, because we leave many people behind. I remember everyone was crying, but, uh, I remember we woke up really early in the morning. We had to pack, eh, just the things that we need them the most.

So, of course we couldn’t really bring everything or everything we need. We just had basically, to take the things that we think it is the most necessities and essentials for us. For me, I remember in that day, I just thought about what is the most important thing to me. And I immediately thought about my school books because I was in grade nine and I was studying very, very hard for that year.

It was a national exams for grade nine in Syria. So, I was sad, also to leave my school and all the efforts that they have made during that time. So, basically I just packed my school books, even though they were really heavy. But I thought that they were what I needed and what will give me hope to get back to my journey.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: So you’re in the ninth grade, you pack up your school books. You pack up your sadness and you make that journey to Jordan with your family to a refugee camp that you’ve never seen before. You don’t know what to expect. What was that first day in the camp like for you in Jordan? Do you remember what your first impression was?

Muzoon Almellehan: Yeah. So, the first impression was getting really disappointed why we came. We started to blame ourselves, eh, we were saying just, we want to go back. You know, we don’t know this place. It’s something get really weird to live in a tent. To have such a basic life, which was really challenging. And to start everything from nothing like to start a new life, which was super challenging.

So, the first impression we decided to go back. So, basically who started to ask how we can go back to Syria. Even it is was, it is much better than staying in the camp, it is much better. This situation, no matter what is going on in Syria, even if we are going to die, we want to go back. But then actually we saw some relatives who actually went to the camp before us.

They assured us, they said that it’s difficult at the beginning. Of course it is not the perfect life. It is not something we want, but we can basically deal with the situation and just live in this situation until we see what’s going on in Syria. So, yeah, we suffered a lot at the beginning, but then day by day, eh, we started to know new friends and new people, new neighbors, eh, the school, which made me really hopeful.

And no matter what the challenges that were facing us, at least I had school and found hope through that. Because I believed through my education I can face the challenges. I can follow my dreams and I can do something, which I feel for myself is valuable and really gives me the strength to be the person that I really want to be.

So all these factors help us to deal with the current situation. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: So you may do, in the camp, you, you did what you had to do. You stayed for a while, and then you went to the UK, which is where you are now.  

Muzoon Almellehan: So basically,  all of this, uh, while by chance, we were expecting to come back, by somehow to our country.

But in 2015, I was told by the organizations there, eh, there is an opportunity if you want to resettle to, uh, an European country, if you want. So basically sat with the family and we discussed that, eh, and we thought it will be the best option in the current situation because the situation in Syria is still very difficult.

It is very bad. The things get worse, they don’t get better. So no, um, hope to go back to Syria in the short time. And also I was in my last year of education in the camp, which was the Jordanian curriculum. Uh, so it was like year 12, which is the last year of education in Jordan. And then we can go to the university.

So I thought, anyways, maybe we’ll leave the camp to study if I got like a scholarship or so basically we thought that is a good opportunity. And we agreed. And then the process started and we have to choose in the UK and came here. But I’m so thankful for this opportunity. And they feel now that the UK is my second home. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: So, I want to know a little bit more about your activism in the camp, right?

Because everybody’s not making that choice. That’s an incredibly difficult choice. It’s hard enough to survive in that situation. And yet you choose to take that time. To engage in activism for the sake of everyone around you. Tell me a little bit about your activism while you were at the camp. 

Muzoon Almellehan: Yes. This is really such an important question because it was the beginning against something I’m so proud that they have done.

So, basically in a situation like the camp, we have two choices. One is to just give up. Or to choose to be hopeful and face the challenges. And I didn’t allow those challenges and this situation to basically defeat me. So, I have chosen to fight and to defeat the challenges, to be stronger than them. And don’t allow them to make me lose hope or to lose that, eh, the belief in myself, or to believe that I deserve to reach my rights.

Because I didn’t make the war and I didn’t choose to be a refugee, but I still have hopes and still have dreams. I also still deserve to reach what I want. And also I have pride in particular, my education. So for me, I don’t accept to lose my rights and that’s what they wanted for every child in the camp.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: I mean, I don’t think anybody could blame you or anyone for, for making the choice just to make it through and survive. And yet, you made the choice to be an activist, then you’ve continued to do that work. You are now an advocate for other refugees as a UNICEF Goodwill Ambassador. Here’s, what’s powerful about this.

You’re the youngest ambassador. You’re also the first former person who’s been a refugee, to have this particular role. So, I want to, I really want to tap into your expertise as someone who has just such a clearly global view. I think that it’s easy sometimes for us, especially in the west to get caught up only in what’s happening in our community, on our doorstep.

Can you help our listeners understand the range of experiences that refugees can have? 

Muzoon Almellehan: Basically, before maybe like I have become a refugee. I thought maybe to become a refugee to something could be shameful.  Something people could label me, like I said, somebody who’s weak or unable to do something.

Somebody who just needs basic care things like food and shelter. I know these things are really fundamental and we need to provide people with like food and shelter, but refugees have things beyond that. They have dreams. They have rights. They have expertise. They have also contributions that they can offer to the word.

The only difference is that their circumstances, like war. So now maybe I think after what’s going on in Ukraine, people have started to see, what’s happening here basically, which is something really sad. But I think when people really start to see it in different places, they realize we are forced to do so. It is not our choice.

So, people of Syria, people of Ukraine. Many countries when they are forced and their lives at danger, they have no choice and all of them, they really want to stay in their countries. But when their lives at risk, they need to migrate to another country or to cross borders. Unfortunately, there are many misconceptions about what refugee is and unfortunately, most of them, they are really, really negative, but I just want to assure people that refugees, we all need a better life. We need safety, we need peace and we have good and bad people at the same time. 

So if just the media, for example, sometimes says, refugees are making our life at risk or eh, they are stealing our jobs or our opportunities, I think this is just the propaganda that is not based on facts and evidence.

And that then we all live human beings and we have the same feelings there. And we have many similarities. I know we have differences, but we definitely can learn from these differences. And we still have many things in common because when we feel compassionate about each other and support each other, we can really move forward. But once we discriminate each other and then we become racist towards some groups of people, I think we go back.

And the great thing about differences is to learn from them not to, eh, just become enemies or to fight each other, or just to have hate on each other. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: The points that you’re making are so salient in part because it’s the humanity of it all that matters. It’s one thing to think about the contributions and the expertise that people come with, but even without all of that, displaced people are human and it could happen to any of us. Right? 

Muzoon Almellehan: Yes, definitely. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: And so the kind of peace that all of us deserve in the, in that moment is what you seek. 

Muzoon Almellehan: Yes. At the end, we all could be in the same situation. So Syria, for example, before 2011 it was such a peaceful country. We had peace, we had safety. So the rise of refugees coming from Syria becomes a clear just after the war. Before the war, there was no Syrian who really lived to seek refuge in any neighboring country. But it is just the war, the factor of war, which drive people like me and like millions to flee their homeland.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Uh, you know, I think some people might get the impression that if someone is leaving a place where there is war or where there’s hunger, whatever the circumstances are that have driven someone to migrate to move that the camp that’s run maybe by a relief agency or an NGO, that that life is automatically going to be better and safer than what people are fleeing.

And sadly, unfortunately that’s not always the case. Can you talk about some of the stressors that come with being a displaced person and that you might experience in a camp setting? 

Muzoon Almellehan: I think in, if it is in a camp or anywhere when somebody actually leaves their country of origin, they will be in a vulnerable situation, especially children and women.

So, this is the case and the camps is not such a perfect environment all the time. Not all camps are safe. Most of the camps also people suffer and they have insecurity, but it is less threatening. It is less violent than the ones that you are fleeing. And we have of course, to make sure, eh, women and the children who most likely will be vulnerable in this situation, to make sure they are safe, but I still feel it is better than the direct risk on people’s lives. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Right. One of the insecurities that you, uh, have really advocated around in the refugee camp setting has been around education. Can you talk a little bit about what you were seeing in the refugee camp that made you want to take action on this particular issue?

Muzoon Almellehan: I’m about the children who dropped out from school. It was so huge. So many of them, they thought we are just living here for a short time. No need to go to school. Even though I was seeing people, basically, we don’t know when we will come back. And until now, we didn’t come back to Syria. Like if we imagine a child who fled Syria in 2013 was born there.Now they must be in the secondary education or maybe in last years of a primary education. So losing like 10 years, 11 years of education, this is a disaster. 

So as long as we have an opportunity, we have to use it. Because we really don’t know what is ahead. So we must get education, learn as much as we can. So at least we can do something for our country in the future. 

So when I saw the huge numbers of children who don’t go to school, this made me really sad and I realized I need to do actions. I need to do something. I need to use my voice. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Some folks have called Syrian youth a lost generation because this access to education that you’re talking about has been so completely disrupted by war and by displacement.

And you know, when we talk about that with you it’s not esoteric. Right? These are people that you know, these are your former classmates. These are people that you know, that you knew and loved before the war broke out. How can the international community really show up in solidarity and support for people of your generation. And what really needs to happen in the future when crises like these happen to prevent that kind of loss from occurring?

Muzoon Almellehan: So I believe the biggest thing that we could do to really solve the root cause is basically all of what’s going on. Like for example, in Syria, the war has been 11 years, which maybe seems for us just numbers, but it is many years of suffering. Many years of children cannot go to school and disruption of education, many families in Syria now live in the poverty line.

So it is easy to destroy a country, eh, but it is so, so difficult to build it. Syria was destroyed by enough in years, but I’m sure we need hundreds of years to rebuild what it has been destroyed. So I think once the conflict happens, we need to work together in order to, eh, stop it because, eh, war is the worst thing I believe it could have been, uh, for us, uh, to any human being.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Like we’ve kept saying, this is personal for you. You’ve lived all of this. And I have to imagine that these images and stories that are coming out of Ukraine and the 6.5 million people that have been displaced by this particular war, they have to be affecting you. This is these, aren’t just numbers for you. These aren’t just faceless people.

How are you personally doing with all of it?

Muzoon Almellehan: To be honest, I was super shocked when first that what had been like when I was checked, when the world had been in Syria, because that was something we didn’t expect.  the started as a revolution and then transformed into a war and conflict. 

Now, unfortunately what breaks my heart is people just know war about Syria. They know it’s a country, which has no safety. It’s a country, which just has war. Even though Syria has a great history, has talented people. It had good education. It had the beautiful cities. It has a really bright side. So, it’s sad to see another war happening, more children become vulnerable and in need. More children have been displaced and the refugees. And as a Goodwill Ambassador to UNICEF, I must talk about these things and highlight them and keep pushing politicians to save lives and to stop war and to make peace because it is between their hands.

But sometimes I decide not to watch because I felt lately this has started to really affect me. But sometimes, unfortunately I feel I only have my voice, but there are many who have power and have all the tools to stop war and they must do so. Of course, as an activist or as a person who had the personal experience, I can only relate to that and feel sad, then react with what’s going on.

And when the war happens, we see who pays the price. Basically those innocent people, children, and women, and who really have nothing to do with war. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah. Dealing with the emotions of watching people be harmed and displaced and terrorized in ways that you can unfortunately really relate to. You’re also watching the world, I would say response, to the crisis in Ukraine, very differently than we have responded to crises and other parts of the world. i\In Syria, across the global south, where black and brown people are concerned. And to be very clear, the aid and humanitarian efforts around displace people from Ukraine are correct. They are righteous. They are justified. 

But we know that there’s a pretty stark contrast between that and what we’ve seen, um, in terms of the world responds to what’s happening in Africa and Middle Eastern countries with their refugees and migrants. Um, what are some of the differences that you have observed? 

Muzoon Almellehan: So, I believe this is such a great question and I think recently, started to make me think why sometimes we become biased. For me personally, I believe if I am a just person, if I am a person who believes in justice and a person who really wants to help people in need, I must forget anything else. I must forget the nationalities. Races, color of his skin, religious and so on. If I am a person who knows what’s going on in Syria is wrong. When innocent people are dying, I must believe so in Ukraine as well. 

I saw in media, unfortunately many people say these are not serious, which is the really big words, which affect us emotionally in a bad way. Because Syria, I feel in recent history, no country suffered like Syria. So basically if a country wants to welcome refugees from Ukraine, this means they must welcom fugees from Syria and from anywhere from the world. If they don’t want, then they don’t welcome anyone.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: That’s right. You know, you’ve continually spoken out about the racism and discrimination that you have experienced and observed, um, happening with, with specific groups of, of migrants and refugees. I know that you recently posted about this on, on Instagram, and you talked about how that kind of discrimination really has to stop. The Ukrainian crisis and Ukrainian refugees are just one part of a much larger global community of displaced people.

I’m curious to know from you what you would like to see, taken from the response to Ukrainian refugees and applied to all displaced people.

Muzoon Almellehan: The countries, which suffer for years also need attention, need people to speak out for them and in a positive way, not in a negative way. And this shows when Syrians actually have become refugees in many countries in the world

The positive impact they made, they have become successful in terms of education, in terms of businesses. But, eh, we need to read history before Labeling this as good or bad, especially saying that people who come from the Middle East, we don’t know their background. They are so dangerous. 

If there is no evidence and link, for example many tourists attacks that happen. No one of them is the Syrian. So there is no link. We try to refer to those people as dangerous. They are not educated in order to make people hate each other. And unfortunately, there are some people who believe that.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: That’s right, and that propaganda is sadly very effective. 

Muzoon Almellehan: Yes, unfortunately. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Living in America, I am quick to remind people that all of the data shows us that the greatest terroristic threat in America are domestically born and raised white men. Right? And so this propaganda, this rhetoric about it being folks from Central America or South America, or the Middle East or Africa, it literally is a lie. Right? 

And this is part of what we get when we have folks, that to your point, are not educated on the facts. You’ve continued to emphasize education in this conversation, but really throughout your whole life. Muzoon, I cannot get over the fact that you are just 23. I was not doing this much when I was 23.

I’m not doing this much and I’m 37. You’ve lived through just so much. And you’ve, you’ve managed to give so much to other people through your activism at that camp through the way that you’ve supported your family, through your work at UNICEF. Before I let you go, what do you hope your life looks like at 33, 34.

And, and what do you hope the world looks like then? 

Muzoon Almellehan: So, on the personal level, I really don’t know through my experience. Basically, I learned to work hard to do as much as I can, and to be hopeful, like to just look in a positive way. Of course, uh, I hope we see a better role, the free from war, free from discrimination and also suffering.

And I hope, one day we can see all people can at least have access to their basic rights, including safety and peace education and so on. I hope that it can happen and in order to do so, we need to work now because in 10 years time, if we still supporting wars and making worse, then I don’t know how can we make this world a brighter one. So, we’ll see.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Well, I’m very sure that what we will see will be not only great things from you. But I agree with you and I have the same hope. I fully believe that justice will reign supreme in the end. And so I appreciate all that you are doing to make that happen for everyone around the world.

Muzoon Almellehan: Thank you so much.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Thank you so much. 

Muzoon Almellehan: Of course. Thanks for the great opportunity. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Muzoon Almellehan is UNICEF’s youngest Goodwill Ambassador. 

Among the many, many things I’m walking away from this conversation with Muzoon with is deep gratitude for her precise clarity, that it is easy to destroy, but difficult to rebuild. I mean, my God that’s, that’s it. That’s everything. Governments drop bombs and fly drones and drive tanks with little regard for the human cost measured in lives and dreams and futures. In an instant, it can all be gone.

Meanwhile, the recovery will take generations. For far too long the narrative has been that underdeveloped nation, which is really just a comfortable euphemism for some other racist words, that they are the only places where this happens. The truth is that unprovoked or unexpected invasions, like the one in Ukraine, genocidal behavior in Tigray, even severe climate and infrastructure disasters like hurricane Katrina can cause crises of displacement and severe harm. 

So for Ukraine, Syria, for Tigray. for Honduras, Palestine, for Haiti. For every person forced to flee for their safety and security. No matter the reason, showing up is not just the least we can do, it is the most human thing we can do. At the very least, show the kind of pair that you hope is shown to you one day. Because one day each of us may need it. 

That’s it for today, but never for tomorrow. UNDISTRACTED is a production of The Meteor and Pineapple Street Studios. 

 

Our lead producer is Rachel Ward. 

Our associate producers are Alexis Moore and Marialexa Kavenaugh.

Thanks also to Treasure Brooks, Hannis Brown, and Ana Adlerstein.

Our executive producers at The Meteor are Cindi Leive and myself, and our executive producers at Pineapple are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Max Linsky. 

 You can follow me @MsPackyetti on all social media and our fantastic team @TheMeteor. 

Subscribe to UNDISTRACTED and rate and review us y’all on Apple Podcast, Stitcher, or most places you check out your favorite podcasts. 

Thanks for listening. Thanks for being. Thanks for doing. I’m Brittany Packnett Cunningham. Let’s go get free.

LEARN MORE ABOUT UNDISTRACTED

UNDISTRACTED: March 24, 2022

“You Deserve to Be Safe”: Nicole Chung on Parenting in a Wave of Anti-AAPI Violence

Please note: This transcript has been automatically generated.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Hey, y’all, it’s Brittany. The country watched this week while judge Kentucky Brown Jackson served up nothing but brilliance during her Supreme court confirmation hearings. And she was grace personified, but baby, she was eating those Republicans up. We’ll get to her in a minute. But right now, I want to talk to you for a second about another Black woman equally as brilliant, equally as tenacious, equally as unafraid. My friend and champion of the people, Cora Faith Walker joined the ancestors just over a week ago.

We were college classmates who found deeper community in the years since we both played roles in the Ferguson uprising. Cora was just 37 years old, but she fit so much courage into her short time here on earth. Cora trained as a lawyer and a public health advocate, putting both her JD and her MPH to work to fight for reproductive justice, children’s rights, gender, and racial equity.

And she never, ever, ever turned away from the hard things. Even when that meant, literally, sitting beside the man who she accused of sexually assaulting her, when she entered the Missouri House of Representatives. Inspired by the people’s power in the Ferguson uprising, Cora stepped up to represent Ferguson’s residents.

And even when the Missouri House decided to still seat the member who had hurt her and allegedly other women, she pressed on for the sake of the people. Many of us will never let St. Louis forget the hand that patriarchy played in Cora’s story. But even more than this, we will never let anyone forget that all of us were better because Cora lived. Because her Southern-bred, thousand-watt smile could light up any room and her fierce power could light up any House floor. She was always there marching in the street, showing up on her neighbors’ stoops, a laugh and a helping hand in store. 

She fought for us and she protected us with grace and humor, and kindness even, and especially, when it wasn’t extended to her. Cora, we can never repay what we owe you, but we will always shine your light. Matthew 25 cites the words often repeated in Black churches during our Homegoing services. “Well done, my good and faithful servant.” And if there’s anyone I know God whispered those words to, is you Cora. We miss you. We love you. Well done, my friend. Rest in power. We are UNDISTRACTED.

On the show today, I’ll be talking to Nicole Chung about parenting during a wave of increased violence against Asian-Americans and what she’d like white co-conspirators to know. 

Nicole Chung: Other families, they used to joke they get stuck with their kids, but we chose you. And I was like, if you chose me then you can choose me now. You know, you can really listen to what I’m saying. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: That’s coming up. But first, it’s your UnTrending news.

So the big news this week, the confirmation hearings of Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson. It began on Monday. Judge Jackson is the first Black woman to be nominated to the Supreme Court. And as we’ve said before, she’s got qualifications on qualifications. Judge Jackson has served on one of the most important courts in the country.

She worked on making federal prison sentences more just, and she clerked for the exact same Supreme Court justice she’s been nominated to replace. She’d also be the first Supreme Court justice with significant experience, representing criminal defendants since Thurgood Marshall was appointed in 1967. 

And yet, we’ve still got senators in the GOP who probably wish it was still 1967. They have made a valiant effort to drag Judge Jackson through the mud in the first 48 hours of the hearing alone. We had Ted Cruz who brought props, literal, blown up pictures of anti-racist children’s books to talk nonsense about critical race theory being taught in schools, which of course doesn’t actually come up in Judge Jackson’s work because they’re there to talk about her work as a judge. 

Then there was Sen. Josh Hawley, I’m sorry, he’s from Missouri, to try to make it sound like she goes easy on child pornography offenders. You know, to stir up that good old QAnon crowd. And of course, Sen. Lindsey Graham tried to make it seem like she goes easy on terrorists.

Meanwhile, she was clear that

Ketanji Brown Jackson: Public defenders don’t choose their clients and yet, they have to provide vigorous advocacy. That’s the duty of a lawyer. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: And then of course there was Marsha Blackburn, who brought up everything from CRT to her anti-trans rhetoric. And I didn’t even know what the hell she was talking about after a while, but it is honestly wild to watch them use hearings to make news for Fox.

They’ve tried to catch her up on stuff that has nothing to do with being a judge. Sen. Kennedy even called her articulate. Yeah, as if being a double Harvard grad would be anything else. Even when she’s defending her record against these drummed up charges made by Republicans who are salty over a democratic president nominating a Black woman. 

Judge Jackson is both a breath of fresh air and a reminder of just how perfect Black women gotta be. Like she’s getting questioned by senators who absolutely helped inspire the January 6th insurrection, but having to hold her total composure, be gracious, and smile through it all. Meanwhile, Brett Kavanaugh got to come out red faced and entitled when he was credibly accused of sexual assault and he got the job.

So, just remember the next time you see someone compliment Judge Brown Jackson on her tenor during these hearings, remember there was no other option for her, but to be absolutely unequivocally perfect. 

The prison sentence of a woman charged with murder after a stillbirth has thankfully been overturned. She’d already spent four whole years behind bars. In 2017, in California, Adora Perez delivered a stillborn child. Doctors found methamphetamines in the baby’s system and told officials that they may have contributed to his death. She was charged with murder, but in order to avoid that more serious charge pleaded down to voluntary manslaughter.

The ruling this week says that the law she was charged under was used incorrectly to punish a pregnant person. It’s meant to be used against someone who has harmed a pregnant person. There’s still a lot of legal issues to work through before she’s released, but the attorney general of California has sided with Ms. Perez saying in a statement: “Here in California, we do not criminalize the loss of a pregnancy.” 

Y’all, she needed help, not punishment. And all of this sounds outrageous because it is, but this is a direct result in part of more and more states extending legal personhood to fetuses instead of seeing pregnancy, and thereby abortion as a matter of privacy and personal autonomy for the pregnant person. 

Moves like this can help do everything from criminalize abortion to, in this case, criminalize stillbirths. And losing a child is plenty traumatic without the threat of jail time coming along with it. In the end, this is a textbook intersectional issue. Criminalizing something that has always been a part of a family’s life will lead to more incarcerated people. Period. That’s why we have to do two things at the same time, pursue prison abolition and protect abortion. 

Okay, deep breath. I want to take a minute here to shout out some good trouble. And normally, I do not spend time on Kim, Kanye, or his antics, but I do want to give kudos to “The Daily Show” Trevor Noah for his monologue last week, which sounded the alarm on Kanye’s increasingly harassing behavior.

If you missed it, I don’t know how, but Kim Kardashian is seeking divorce from her equally famous husband, rapper Kanye West. It’s been popping off in the tabloids for months now, but Kanye’s responses and his refusal to honor her request to be left alone is what, in particular, Trevor Noah was flagging. Because for him, it looks an awful lot like the cycle of harassment that accompanied the abuse his mother experienced. And even though she asked for help, people never believed her.

Trevor Noah: I remember once we went to the police station and they said to my mom, “Oh, but did you talk back? Is that why you’re here?” And I’ll never forget one day I got a call from my brother saying “Hey, mom has just been shot in the head. She’s in the hospital now. She’s just been shot.” Maybe that’s why I look at the story differently to be honest with you. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Y’all, if Kim can’t escape a situation like this, what chance do normal women have? So, I’m going to give Trevor Noah his props because far too many people have been treating what is happening to Kim and their children like a publicity stunt.

But here’s what I’m also going to flag because even less attention has been paid to Megan Thee Stallion. Also famous, the superstar has credibly accused rapper Tory Lanez of shooting her in the foot. And even fewer people are believing her or talking about it. A dark skin, Black woman is very simply not getting the same mainstream coverage.

So, if that’s the case for two of the most recognizable women on the planet, what is the risk for the rest of us? For poor women, for trans women, BIPOC women, immigrant women? What chance do any of us have, especially when women are questioned for what happens to them instead of society questioning why it’s happening to them?

Coming up, my conversation with Nicole Chung, author of the memoir All You Can Ever Know. We’ll be talking about what it means to be a Korean American adoptee in these disturbing times, right after this short break.

And we are back. Our Asian American siblings have experienced more than a 300% jump in hate crimes over the last year. It’s gotten so severe that a recent piece in The New York Times floated ideas for reducing violence. Ideas included an Asian American curriculum in schools, better services for the unhoused, better services for the mentally ill. More cops, fewer cops, a new cop to replace the old one as the head of the New York City hate crime task force. But irrespective of the list, just a week later The Times was reporting on yet another brutal attack. This time, a 67 year-old Filipino woman was cursed at, punched, kicked, and spat at by her assailant.

The attack was so disturbing that YouTube took down the surveillance camera video that had been uploaded by law enforcement, citing its policy against graphic violence. But even if the video is gone we cannot unsee it. It’s so much to bear and the burden is increased when you are a parent. My guest today, author Nicole Chung, says it’s a struggle to make sense of these kinds of attacks and to explain them to her children. 

That struggle hits Nicole so uniquely as a Korean American adopted into a white family, she sits right on the border between blissful ignorance of the experience of racism and the solitary experience of being the only one. I wanted to talk to her about how her adoption story shapes her response to these painful times and how she’s parenting her children through them.

Hey, Nicole. Thank you so much for talking with me today. 

Nicole Chung: Thank you so much for the invitation. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: So, we’re sitting in a moment where we have just marked the one year anniversary of the murders of workers at the Atlanta spa. And that year of mourning was really bookended with a brutal attack on an Asian elder in New York earlier this month.  I’m wondering, in your own reflection, how you think you’ve changed over the past year. How has the way you’ve processed these kinds of incidents changed? 

Nicole Chung: I mean, I’ve been asked this like a couple of times this weekend and one time it was in a conversation with a good friend, a fellow Korean American writer, actually.

And we’re all sadder, we’re angrier. And I think there’s a lot more anxiety and fear for the people, you know, that we love. And so for better or for worse, I do think there are a lot more conversations happening. There’s more, maybe more awareness. I mean, that said, we also sometimes hear statistics about how many white people are completely unaware that there’s been a spike in violence and harassment against Asian and Pacific Islander communities.

So, a lot of us are more tired. And it’s not like it was new, you know, the racism was not new. It was not started by Trump when he started scapegoating Asian Americans for COVID. But at the same time, I think what we have seen are like a lot of people emboldened by that, like that’s their reason now they can use.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah, he gave a lot of racists some cover. Right? To your point. But recently you tweeted that “I can’t feel despair all the time because I see how many are fighting for a safer and more just world. Who is out there standing in the gap that you want us to know about?”

Nicole Chung: You know, we do this work, we stand on the shoulders of so many people and we have seen solidarity from a lot of different communities of color.

You know, the movement for Black lives made a statement like immediately after Atlanta. There were Black and Asian communities in the Atlanta area, like on the ground talking and making statements and like mourning. That was really meaningful. And it’s been really helpful, I think, especially in the last couple of years of the widespread trauma and grief that we are all dealing with and in the face of ongoing racial trauma, which is not unique to Asian-Americans of course, and not new. Knowing who’s in your corner. Like knowing who’s there that has been enormously helpful for me. And I think it is what’s kept me from despair. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Community is everything in these moments and to keep it in a personal, for a second. I’m thinking specifically about this beautiful essay that you wrote in the Atlantic called “How do I Talk to My Daughter about Violence against Asian Women?” I mean, reading that is part of the reason why we as a team, we’re like we have to have Nicole on the show.

Can you tell us a little bit more about your daughter? How old is she? 

Nicole Chung: She is, she just turned 14, actually. So, like middle school student, definitely like a teen. She’s amazing. Like she’s, I try not to talk a lot about her like publicly, but she’s, I’m just constantly in awe of her and like how well she knows herself and how deeply she cares and honestly how much she cares about justice.

And so, you know, I think we were always going to have these conversations and not just because she’s old enough to get news alerts on her phone, but because we’ve always had these conversations. And at the same time, you know, that piece really came from just me sitting with my feelings about how hard it was, because I still feel that parental urge to want to protect her or to just like, keep her safe at home where like nothing could happen. 

And of course, like that’s not realistic. Of course, like that’s not a luxury that most people and certainly most parents of color have. Not talking to her about it would not keep her from facing racism. And in fact, she’s already faced racism in her life. She’s 14. It’s just so hard as a parent, I think to sit in that tension of like, I can’t stop this from someday hurting you or from hurting you now, but we still. We have to talk about it. We have to name it. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: It was deeply compelling. And I’m curious, just what kind of conversations you’ve been having with her. Right? As you’ve been processing your own feelings while also having to parent through this. Have those conversations evolved? Are they different from what they were before the pandemic? 

Nicole Chung: Yeah. You know, I have to kind of like ding myself a little bit here. I think that I had talked with her actually a great deal about structural racism and violence. State violence.

We talked a lot about violence against Black people. And I talked with her about anti-Asian racism, but perhaps until the last couple of years, I hadn’t talked with her about that as much as I should have. Like the very specific ways that Asian women and girls experienced like racial and gender based violence, because all women of color experience it.

But like there’s very specific ways that we experience it. Just like there’s very specific ways that Black women experience it. And I sort of started to wonder like, did I not sort of make enough distinctions with her and get specific enough?

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: You know, it’s so interesting, there’s this thread that goes through your essay,  this sense of having your own emotions and then not necessarily knowing how to tackle the conversation with this person that you are raising.

It ends with this paragraph that I want to share because of how powerful I find it. I think it’d be amazing if you read it because I’d love for people to hear it in your voice. 

Nicole Chung: Okay. 

I can tell you the truth and do my best to prepare you, but I can be neither your mediator, nor your lifelong shield. You will have to seek answers to your own questions, try to create and care for your own community and learn how to reckon with this country, this world, on your own terms.

If there are those who will not see or value you. If there are those who do not consider your life precious, I hope that you can always feel assured of your own immense worth and your absolute right to be safe. You deserve to be safe. We all deserve to be safe. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: I loved your words there because it cut through so clearly. We all deserve to be safe. And yet, that right of humanity is not at all guaranteed anywhere in the world, certainly in this country. What do you think about what you’ve learned about how to reckon with this country, as you say? 

Nicole Chung: I don’t know. I wish I had good answers. It’s, um.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: That’s real.

Nicole Chung: I’m angry all the time, you know. And the misogyny, specifically like the gender-based harassment and violence. You know, long before I had like the language to call what was happening to me, like say racism because I grew up in a white adoptive family and we did not talk about race or racism.

I understood when things were happening because I was like a girl, a young woman, I think as far back as my elementary school and you were wearing a skirt. The boys would try to flip up your skirts on the playground. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Child, what?

Nicole Chung: And my school’s answer to this, my grade school’s answer was ‘the girls should wear pants’. And this is something I started learning then when I was six, seven years old. You know, while I’m hearing racial slurs on the playground directed at me. So, it’s all related. I don’t get to ever step outside as not an Asian woman. At the same time, I think that you know what’s happening to you on some level, but you don’t learn how to necessarily talk or process or think about it until you’re much older.

Like my daughter now, we talk a lot about things like consent. You know, no one has the right to do anything to your body that you don’t consent to. And so like, one of her first questions for me of course, was like ‘what kind of things?’ And so I’m thinking about my long history of everything from being groped on the subway to like touch without my consent by a random stranger while I was on a date with another person. Like just these things, they pile up. And like at the same time I remember telling her, I know I’ve been lucky because worse things did not happen. It could have.

And her response floored me. It was like, this doesn’t sound lucky. You know, I don’t want to say like out of the mouths of babes, but I think we have to do so much work as women, as women of color to be in the world to not despair and to just walk around knowing the risks. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: I mean, we’ve been socialized to process these things in a way that allows us to neatly pack them up and move on because most likely there will be another incident.

And so that skill of packing it up, tying a bow on it, shoving it in the back of our mental closet, so that we no longer have to deal with it. A lot of times we have these experiences, like the ones you’re having with your daughter where you have to go and extrapolate those memories. And in the mirror that your daughter is now holding up for you, you realize, oh wait, the way I packed this up, actually wasn’t fair to myself.

Right?  I’m curious what you feel like your daughter has revealed to you through these conversations. Cause that’s a powerful discovery. 

Nicole Chung: Oh man. So, I don’t want to make it sound like I’m projecting, but in a sense, if you have children, you think about things, you revisit moments and you sort of analyze them differently.

The adult you, with the adult perspective, you know. Your lifetime of experience. You look back on these moments you experienced, many of them before you had the tools or the vocabulary or the support or the community or whatever it is you needed to kind of deal with it. You look back on those moments and it really messes you up a little bit.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah.

And then there’s also like this, this sorrow, I think, for like the kid I was who couldn’t feel those things in the moment, because it was so much about like survival. You know, I grew up in pretty relative racial isolation, like not only in a white family, but the only Korean American I personally knew until college.

And so I dealt with a lot of like racial trauma and experiences kind of on my own. I realized like it’s kind of like hitting me anew and then that’s something I have to deal with while I try to support them in what they’re going through, which is really quite different and individual to them. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: I want to go back to this moment where so many people were also overtly reckoning with this country. The 2016 elections. Like you say, you were born to Korean parents in Seattle and then raised by a white adoptive family in Oregon. And you’ve written extensively about how you pleaded with your parents, with your white parents to understand how Asian Americans specifically were experiencing this once again, emboldened racism that Donald Trump had kind of surfaced. How did you navigate that moment? 

Nicole Chung: I honestly feel I didn’t navigate it well. You probably remember after the election, there was, there were many, many tweets about how like, if you have white family and you didn’t talk to them about this, like you’re responsible.

Okay. So, I didn’t exactly feel that because A, I am not white. And B, I did, I did try to talk to my white family about it. It just didn’t go that well. I grew up in a more libertarian, conservative pocket of like rural Oregon. To be really clear, my parents actually weren’t registered Republicans and they didn’t like Trump, but I knew they were never going to vote for Hillary.

Like I knew when push came to shove, they were always going to vote for the conservative candidate. But we’d, since we didn’t talk about it much as a family, when I was growing up, I would say when we started to talk about, when I was probably in my late teens, early twenties, and then on, through the election of 2016. For them, it was a real shift.

They did not really want to talk with me about it. It was kind of like this is not your business and how people vote is very private. And also there’s that old like adoptive family tug of like all that really matters is our love for each other. And I was kind of like, I need you to realize that like love isn’t quite enough all the time.

I think I wrote this before, but like one of their common refrains was like we chose you. That’s something a lot of adoptive parents tell their kids. Like other families, they, they used to joke they get stuck with their kids, but we chose you. And I was like if you chose me, then you can choose me now. You know, you can really listen to what I’m saying.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Wow. 

Nicole Chung: It was just never an easy conversation, right? Because at the time I was adopted, the adoption discourse was very much like just assimilate her. Just assimilate her and everything will be fine. And that was like how I was raised. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Um, you know, if you talk about all of the tweets that came after 2016 saying talk to your white family. Hell, I think I wrote an article that was like ‘White people this one is on you. What are you going to do about it?’ And I will admit, I don’t think I ever really gave a second thought to people of color who have white family members feeling the burden of having to have that conversation. I was thinking about white people talking to other white people.

And in Time magazine, you wrote that as a transracial adoptee, that you were, quote, “uniquely conditioned to excuse and instruct and even comfort white people”. So, that’s an impulse I didn’t even consider. How, how do you feel like that impulse has impacted you? 

Nicole Chung: Oh, like so many ways. It’s been like a lifetime of unlearning, honestly. Because, you know, I knew that all the white people in my family loved me. Um, at the same time they weren’t comfortable talking about or sometimes even acknowledging the fact that I was Korean. And this is one of the privileges of being white, right? You don’t actually have to see that. You don’t have to think about that unless you want to or someone forces you. It sometimes felt as though being curious about my birth family or my Korean identity, or even me sharing like examples of racism against me was somehow like a betrayal because it was forcing them to see something they did not want to see and had not expected to see. You know, especially in spaces like my school, our church and our neighborhood where they just assumed I’d be safe because they felt safe. And so having the courage to start those conversations, it really only happened when I was older.

And that’s partly because I also didn’t have the language, just did not have the vocabulary, to say like this happened to me and it was racism and it was wrong. I don’t want to speak for all adoptees, like transnational adoptees, but just like for myself, I think I learned how to move in white spaces and how to like, I can’t even call it code switching because I was raised in white spaces. It was extremely natural in a way. I knew what they expected. I knew they wanted me to be like, as a Korean adoptee, like happy, grateful, you know, like all these things. And I really spent a long time kind of trying to be like, you know, that good adoptee realizing though on the other hand that our love for each other actually was strong enough to stand up to like real conversations.

But like my honesty with them could be a sign of my esteem and my love and respect and like saying what I needed could be a sign of my love and respect instead of a betrayal. You know, learning that took a very long time, but I did eventually learn it. Um, and I do think that made our relationship better and stronger.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah. I always say real love tells the truth, right? It’s interesting. You talk about this, this code switching because I, I definitely, I went to predominantly white schools and so I found myself code switching all the time. But, the clear difference is when I went home, I didn’t have to switch anymore, right?

And to your point, when you went home, it was still all one in the same, in part, because of what you referenced earlier. This whole, we don’t see color, quote, unquote colorblind, era of adoptive parenting that some might say is continuing in certain spaces. You’ve written a lot about that mindset in your memoir All you Can Ever Know. I’m really curious what elements of, how you were raised you’ve intentionally brought into your own parenting and what you’ve tried to leave behind. 

Nicole Chung: Oh, that’s like a good, tough question. I mean, my parents, my mother, especially, she did really always have my back. Like I really think her belief in me, not just love, but like absolute faith in me as a person, even when we didn’t agree, like she trusted me to kind of know my mind and to know my values and to live those values.

I think her confidence in her faith in me gave me so much more faith in myself than I would have had without that. That’s something I try to bring to my parenting. Something I’ve tried to like leave behind, it won’t surprise you to hear is, of course, like I have tried to talk with my kids about race and racism and my politics are also very different from my adoptive family.

So, the way we have those conversations is quite different. But even, even underlying that, like he difference there is like a sort of faith in them, in my kids and like an honesty that I think my parents shared and that still very much informs my parenting, you know, as different as it is. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: When you talk about some of the things that your parents didn’t talk about with you, you cited things like the model minority myth, perpetual foreigner syndrome. They didn’t talk about the exotification and fetishization of Asian and Asian American women. Um, I’m particularly interested in how you’ve handled any of those conversations with your children, right? Like, like the model minority myth.

Nicole Chung: Yeah. So, I don’t actually think that they could have talked with me about some of those things. My parents would have had no access to like that information. They certainly observed perpetual foreigner syndrome. They saw people ask me “Where did you come from?” They saw people tell me your English is great.

But like, I mean, there wasn’t like a term they could have applied to it. So, I’ve been pretty upfront, especially with my older daughter cause she’s at an age and developmental level where it’s possible to have these sort of in-depth discussions. You know, we have talked about like the model minority myth. I don’t think for her that term is like super helpful right now, but we’ve talked about like stereotypes of Asian Americans, how we’re often used as a wedge or a cudgel against other communities of color.

I’ve tried to talk with her about like the fetishization and we have not watched these movies, but like I’ve talked with her about a lot of like really problematic roles for Asian American women like in movies or like musicals, you know, there are like so many. I’ve been able to have those discussions with her because they’re things I experienced and you know, that is also like, I don’t want to say an advantage, but that is an experience that my adopted family did not share.

So, anything they had tried to tell me about it would have been completely secondhand. You know, it would have been a pretty tall order, which is not to say that they couldn’t have been better educated and better prepared going in because they could have, um, and I think there were key ways in which both they and my birth family were really failed by the system.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: In the midst of all of this, you have reconnected with your birth family. Could you tell us a little bit about them? What, what is that relationship really? 

Nicole Chung: Yeah. I’m very close to my, my biological sister, Cindy. It feels weird to like stick the “biological” in front of it, but, you know. I don’t call her “Hey, biological sis”, but no, she and I are very, very close.

She’s like one of my heroes, she’s one of my go-to’s, we’d still talk a lot. And we reunited like in 2008. I decided to search for my birth family because I was pregnant with my first child, actually. The aforementioned older daughter. And I got to this point where I realized I didn’t know anything about my history.

I didn’t know what I was going to be able to pass on to her. I didn’t know how to answer the questions she might have someday. And so the search really was for me, but it was also for her. Like it suddenly felt very urgent in that moment because I wasn’t just doing it for me. So, it was so strange how that happened.

My family was expanding in this other way. Right? Like literally the first time I heard from my birth father was the day I went into labor. And so, like just like right on top of each other, these things are happening. Um, you know, I’m recovering postpartum. I’m like an emotional oozing wreck. And like I’m hearing from my sister for the first time.

Oh, wow. Cindy and I corresponded for a long time. And then we met in person like a year later. I don’t know, she’s sort of been integrated too into my adoptive family a little bit. She had met my adoptive parents and was there with me at the funeral when my father, my adoptive father, passed away. I dunno, like it’s so hard for me to imagine my life without her now. At the same time, it was not easy or simple to kind of put our family back together. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Yeah. What conversations did you have with your parents, with your birth parents, about your adoption story? What did those conversations mean to you? 

Nicole Chung: Oh gosh. I mean, the first thing either of them said to me was like ‘I’m so sorry’. They were both carrying a lot of guilt, I think. And a lot of shame.  I think it was very hard for them to revisit that time and still really is. I don’t want to say something dramatic like they would prefer I had not found them because I do not think that’s true. You know, they both said they were very happy to hear from me and glad to know I was all right and all that.

But like, I know it was something that they hadn’t wanted to think about, even though they consented to the contact. Cause they could have said no. I know it was just so difficult and reminded them of this traumatic time. And my birth parents, like many birth families, were not very well seen or supported by like the child welfare system by the adoption process.

And so even though their family, their immigrant family was going through like trauma Everyone involved in the adoption was just like, how do we get this baby to this like white family that wants to adopt her? And I started to think about how things could have been different from my birth family and particularly my sister who was six years old and I was born and living at home and remained, you know, in my birth family.

I wonder how things could have been different for her. If there had been that kind of concern. But they were not who the system was designed to serve. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: I mean, you keep referencing the failures of the system and I think that’s so critical because from the outside looking in, a lot of us who have not experienced adoption don’t necessarily think of this as a systemic conversation.

We think about families. We think about children. But transracial adoption in particular has a really fraught history. I’m thinking, for example, of the so-called baby lifts that the US initiated during the Vietnam war and the way that people talked about, you know, quote, unquote, saving children. I’m curious what you think about the practice of adopting children across race, or even across borders, and generally how you’d like to see these systems shift.

Nicole Chung: I mean, I will say. For me personally, it’s not helpful for me to think about adoption in like black and white terms, in terms of like a yes or no right or wrong. I do think there are a lot of ways in which different attitudes around it, different practices can perpetuate a lot of harms. So, there does need to be like a lot more awareness.

There needs to be a lot more support and resources for our families and our communities. If family preservation is at all an option, if there’s an option for like a child, for example, to be aised or adopted or fostered by like kin instead of like immediately going out to someone else beyond that. I just think like if a family is going to adopt, I do think you have to go in with your eyes open.

If you’re a white family adopting a child of color, you know, before you do that. Not like after. Like take a good hard look at what does your neighborhood, your family, your community look like? What type of community is this child going to grow up in? Are they always going to be the only one in the neighborhood at their school, at your church? Whatever. 

What is their experience maybe going to be like, that’s just empathy. That’s just a basic like question to start with, not an end. It’s hard because I think there is a focus now, more of a focus on like celebrating a child’s birth culture, culture of origin. And that’s nice, but that is also the fun part.

It is not fun to talk about race, to look at racism in this country. It is not fun to like unpack things like white supremacy, white privilege. And so you have to be prepared to do those things too, because even if it’s not your experience like it is going to be so relevant to your child. No one looks at me and sees a white person just because I come from a white family. 

And then something else that honestly like a lot of white people, not just adoptive families should be doing, you have to be willing to get personal and ask yourself like what are the choices I’ve made? In what ways am I complicit or furthering systems or practices that harm people of color? That harm people like my child, if I adopt, you know? And that is also a very hard thing to think and talk about, but like, if you cannot do that, you know, then I guess I would say it’s possible transracial adoption is not for you.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: To your point about the intense nuance of all of this for people who may be heading into the process of reconnecting with their birth family. Are there things that you’d recommend they meditate on before and while they’re going on that journey?

Nicole Chung: It’s always complicated. I knew it was going to be emotional. I knew it was going to be complicated, but until I was in the thick of it I was not really fully prepared. So, what I always say, a couple of things, one, like have your support systems ready to go. I wish I had like been in therapy ongoing while I was reuniting. And then just like recognizing we have no control over the process.

Like one reason I really wanted to reach out to my birth parents was to like thank them for their sacrifice. I wanted to tell them, reassure them I was okay. If you were worried that I wouldn’t be okay, please know that that’s not something you have to worry about anymore. Like I thought I was going to give them peace, which is so naive.

Right? You can’t make someone else heal nor can you make them respond the way you might hope they will respond. And so I should have known going in and I encourage other adoptees to know going into a search or a reunion, if you’re lucky, privileged enough to reconnect. There’s so little you control and you can’t supply peace or healing to somebody else.

Try and like think about what will bring you peace and healing because that you have a little more control over. But again, I think the support is just so crucial 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Before we sign off. You know, we’ve been talking a lot about what you’ve been writing about race, parenting, complicating this whole narrative of adoption, adoption systems. And the angle you’ve taken on these topics often responds to a moment, right? For, for the sake of your own feeling, for your own parenting or because there’s a demand of course, to hear from Asian American voices, which is crucial. As a Black writer myself, I know when those phone calls start to come a little bit more frequently, if you could be on the other side and be the initiator and not the responder.

Um, if you were telling your stories kind of away from the constraints of our culture and its demands, what would you perhaps, what will you be writing about and talking about?

Nicole Chung: That is a good question. And I just really appreciate you acknowledging, and of course you understand, like it’s very disconcerting to say the least when something terrible happens to people in your community.

And that is when a flood of requests comes in. That is when people want to read and share your work. I try not to write in the super responsive way. I tried to just kind of write from the heart and I’m very privileged to have the platform I do. But at the same time, like I know like when something like this happens, I’m going to hear from editors.

I’m going to hear from people. But I’ve been writing more about grief and the experience of losing my adoptive parents. It’s also about like growing up in a working class family. In my case, a white working class family, but I am not white. And then my experience with parenting through grief, but through all the upheaval and the trauma of the last few years, you know, that is also a luxury.

And honestly, like my favorite writing is the kind that is unhurried, where you can think about yourself, your needs, and like maybe the needs of your readers. But will probably be out next year. And I just, I’m really grateful as hard as it’s been to have the chance to work. 

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Well, whenever it comes, I know I am looking forward to it. I know plenty of us will be looking forward to reading your unhurried reflections on things that we’re all thinking about. Nicole, thank you so, so much. It was great to talk to you.

Nicole Chung: You too, Brittany. I’m so grateful. Thank you.

Brittany Packnett Cunningham: Nicole Chung writes the I Have Notes newsletter for The Atlantic magazine. Her memoir is called All You Can Ever Know.

There is one thing in this world that all of us and I do mean all of us, will have experienced—childhood. Irrespective of who raised us, where or how. Whether we become parents ourselves or not. Each of us had to grow into the people we are today. And there are some things some people in institutions and some systems that have raised us for better. For worse. Or, you know, somewhere in between. And there some experiences that Nicole raised that mirror my own. The conversations my mother had to have with me about the hypersexualization of Black women may not have contained all the same details as the conversations Nicole had with her daughter. But the fact that we had to have them resonates. 

But still my conversation with Nicole raised questions for me I had never even considered before, like about how families formed differently than mine communicate across lines of difference and make sacrifices and deal with tension. I honestly never really considered how often the weight of talking to your white family members about race would fall to transracially adopted children.

I mean, does it change how a parent hears the pleas when it comes from their child and not just appear, I don’t know. But in the end I’m sitting with what Nicole said so clearly. We have to talk about it. And if you’re the one who bears the burden of the racism, it is perfectly okay to still be sorting through your own feelings when you do. 

That’s it for today, but never, ever for tomorrow. UNDISTRACTED is a production of The Meteor and Pineapple Street Studios. 

 

Our lead producer is Rachel Ward. 

Our associate producer is Alexis Moore. 

Thanks also to Treasure Brooks and Hannis Brown. 

Our executive producers at The Meteor are Cindi Leive and myself, and our executive producers at Pineapple are Jenna Weiss-Berman and Max Linsky. 

You can follow me at @MsPackyetti on all social media and our team @TheMeteor. 

Subscribe to UNDISTRACTED and rate and review us on Stitcher, Apple Podcast, or most places where you get your favorite podcasts. 

Thanks for listening. Thanks for being and thanks for doing. I’m Brittany Packnett Cunningham. Let’s go get free.

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