EPISODE 3 – PAMELA ANDERSON AND THAT ICONIC RED SWIMSUIT
Please note: This transcript has been automatically generated.
Jessica Bennett:
In the mid 1990s when Pamela Anderson was at the height of her fame, she sat down for an interview with talk show host Regis Philbin. He was the co-host of Live with Regis and Kathie Lee. And Pam was there to promote Baywatch, which was rated number one in the world at that time. Regis was asking her about the sudden and wild popularity of that show where she played CJ Parker, a veteran lifeguard who patrols the beaches of Southern California in a cherry red one-piece swimsuit. And that suit, well, that suit was what Regis and seemingly all of America really wanted to talk about.
Regis Philbin:
And I love your red bathing suit.
Pamela Anderson:
Oh, thank you. I don’t think they’re the most flattering.
Regis Philbin:
But there’s something about those one piece suits.
Pamela Anderson:
Yeah. Oh, I like one piece suits better than bikinis.
Regis Philbin:
Excuse me.
Jessica Bennett:
What you can’t see and what gets that laugh at the end is the face Regis makes after he says that. He’s biting his thumb like a horny teenage boy who just can’t contain himself thinking about that swimsuit. And you know what? He wasn’t entirely alone. There was something about that swimsuit. I’m Jessica Bennett.
Susie Banikarim:
And I’m Susie Banikarim.
Jessica Bennett:
This is In Retrospect where each week we revisit a cultural moment from the past that shaped us.
Susie Banikarim:
And that we just can’t stop thinking about.
Jessica Bennett:
This week we’re talking about a swimsuit, a very specific swimsuit worn by Pamela Anderson on Baywatch, that classic and [inaudible 00:01:34] lifeguard drama, but we’re also talking about what that swimsuit represented, which was a particular view of sexuality that defined 1990s America, which happens to be the era we grew up in.
Susie Banikarim:
So Jess, we’re talking about that famous red swimsuit, but like everything else on this show, it’s not just a swimsuit.
Jessica Bennett:
Right. That suit became one of these key artifacts of 90s culture. We all remember it. It hung on posters in bedrooms of teenagers all across America and the world. It eventually was like plastered onto beer cozies and beach towels. I was going down the rabbit hole on eBay. There’s calling cards. Remember calling cards when you would’ve to go a payphone and dialed?
Susie Banikarim:
Oh yeah.
Jessica Bennett:
So that swimsuit with Pam in it was on calling cards.
Susie Banikarim:
That’s weird.
Jessica Bennett:
It was on pinup calendars, basically anywhere you could put an image and sell it. There was Pam in that suit. And side note, she never made a dime from any of those.
Susie Banikarim:
Because she didn’t have any rights to her own image. The image was all owned by Baywatch.
Jessica Bennett:
Correct.
Susie Banikarim:
That’s wild too. So what made you think about that suit now?
Jessica Bennett:
Yeah, so you’ll remember that she released a memoir recently and she was also the subject of a Netflix documentary that was actually produced by her son all about her life. So late last year, I traveled to Canada and basically got snowed in at Pamela Anderson’s house.
Susie Banikarim:
That sounds amazing.
Jessica Bennett:
In Ladysmith, Canada, where she grew up, which is where she now lives in order to write a profile of her. And at one point, to tie this back to the suit, I found myself in Pamela Anderson’s attic, as you do, and it’s fascinating. It’s full of old magazines, interviews she’s done, all of her Playboy covers. She’s very into scrapbooking, so it’s like scrapbooks she made for her kids who are now grown, old report cards. There was a wedding scrapbook album she had made for Tommy Lee, her ex-husband at one point.
Susie Banikarim:
He’s married to someone else now, right?
Jessica Bennett:
But who’s the father of her children. They co-parent. And I also uncovered an old Baywatch Barbie. Do you remember there was a Baywatch Barbie?
Susie Banikarim:
I mean, I don’t know that I remember it, but I can immediately conjure up the image of it. So I must have been aware of it in some way.
Jessica Bennett:
So it’s not specifically branded as the Pamela Anderson Baywatch Barbie, but of course she looks like Barbie and Barbie looks like her.
Susie Banikarim:
I mean, she is the quintessential Barbie.
Jessica Bennett:
Exactly. So the Barbie’s wearing the red suit, the Barbie has the lifeguard buoy. There’s a little dolphin, which is very Pam also.
Susie Banikarim:
That’s adorable.
Jessica Bennett:
She’s an animal rights activist. And to show the impact of this suit, but also the show, this is one of the top selling Barbies of all time.
Susie Banikarim:
Really?
Jessica Bennett:
It’s another little data point that tells you about the impact of that swimsuit and that suit on that show.
Susie Banikarim:
Interesting.
Jessica Bennett:
So we’re talking about the swimsuit, but for those who need a little refresher, Baywatch, what was Baywatch? Susie, do you have a recollection of Baywatch?
Susie Banikarim:
I mean, I knew that Baywatch was a lifeguard show. It felt like it was on TV all the time in the 90s.
Jessica Bennett:
It was. It ran from 1989 to 1999. And the show was about a group of lifeguards who patrolled the beaches of LA County. The action usually revolved around dramatic water rescues, so lifeguards diving into waves or even jumping from helicopters into the open ocean. But there were also, as you can imagine, really dramatic things such as shark attacks, earthquakes, like hot affairs and even murder. So your usual beach day drama.
Susie Banikarim:
Okay. And I remember it as really being a show that starred Pam Anderson, although I also remember that David Hasselhoff was a big character on the show, right?
Jessica Bennett:
A big buff character.
Susie Banikarim:
Character on the show. He was like the captain of the team or something.
Jessica Bennett:
Something like that.
Susie Banikarim:
Is it a lifeguard team? I don’t know.
Jessica Bennett:
That is all true. But while Pam, universal sex icon of the 90s, and some could argue still today was indeed a big part of it, she didn’t actually join until the third season.
Susie Banikarim:
Really?
Jessica Bennett:
Yep.
Susie Banikarim:
I had no idea. I mean, I just think of that show as so tied to her. I can’t imagine that show without her.
Jessica Bennett:
And the thing about Pam Anderson in that show is that it was really her who took this swimsuit and cemented it into the American psyche in this way that none of us will ever forget. But of course, that is how we feel now. And I was really curious how Pam felt about it back then. So I went back to Pam and I asked her what it was like to act in that suit.
Pamela Anderson:
I guess that’s a difficult question to ask. I was just doing what I was told, wearing the costume, and I would’ve been on the beach anyway. So it was fun to act in a swimsuit. I was getting a tan and doing a job at the same time. I know a lot of the girls kind of complained about wearing a swimsuit all the time, but I actually really enjoyed it. It was either the red swimsuit or the black swimsuit where we did all of our workouts in, all of our slow motion montages. People always ask me, how did you stay in such good shape on that show? And I thought, well just wear a bathing suit every single day, and you just don’t eat that bagel.
Susie Banikarim:
I love hearing her voice, but unfortunately I do eat the bagel. Is that bad? But yeah, it really is amazing that you can immediately conjure up what that swimsuit looks like.
Jessica Bennett:
I was trying to remember if there was one image of that suit that really crystallizes this, and it’s almost like there’s dozens of moments. So if you look back at the show itself, you see Pam in the red suit grabbing her buoy and running towards the water. We see Pam in the suit bent over, sexily lotioning up with sunscreen.
Susie Banikarim:
As one does.
Jessica Bennett:
We see Pam and her swimsuit on the jet ski. We see Pam going to save a drowning man. But turns out the guy isn’t really drowning, he just wants Pam and the red swimsuit to save him.
Susie Banikarim:
I mean, that must’ve been a lot of the case.
Pamela Anderson:
Prompting a false rescue is a crime.
Clip:
You can’t bust me for that. I love you.
Jessica Bennett:
And so much slow motion running, like slow motion from every angle from back, below, side, top, any angle you could possibly do slow motion. But the show’s opening credits are really what I remember. The Baywatch theme song, I’m Always Here, sung by the 80s, hair metal band, Cobra.
Susie Banikarim:
I loved hair metal bands in the 80s.
Jessica Bennett:
Plays in the background. And so as the opening credits play on, you see these scenes of sunny California beach sand, babes in bikinis, sun, umbrellas, kids laughing. And then you meet CJ Parker. She’s got her hands on her hips. The camera slowly pans from her very perfect and very tan legs up to the top of her cherry red swimsuit, and then up to her face. And we see that that suit is extremely low cut on the top, very high cut on the hips, and basically side boob is in full effect.
Susie Banikarim:
So obviously a very functional lifeguard suit.
Jessica Bennett:
Totally functional suit.
Susie Banikarim:
And so wait, you’re telling me that there’s more to the opening than just Pam, because I remember the entire opening is just being Pam running down the beach.
Jessica Bennett:
I love that that’s the way you remember it, because that’s what I think most people’s takeaway was. But actually it introduces all the characters. There’s all sorts of beach scenes. It’s giving us a glimpse into Southern California beach life. But what do we remember? We remember Pam.
Susie Banikarim:
Pam. What do we actually know about the swimsuit? I mean, it really does not seem like a functional lifeguard swimsuit.
Jessica Bennett:
Okay. So funny you should raise that because the original suit… So I mentioned that Pamela only joined in season three. So the original suit was inspired by real California lifeguards. It had like an official LA County lifeguard patch, like the real kind. And the creators of the show, one of them had actually started out as a lifeguard in California. So they were quoted at the time talking about how they wanted these suits to be “practical and actually work in the surf.” They wanted to have good support in the bust. They wanted to have minimal creep in the back. And as one of them said, it was all about athletics and functionality.
Susie Banikarim:
Wait, so the original swimsuits were standard issue like lifeguard swimsuits?
Jessica Bennett:
Yes. They were truly based on real lifeguarding. They wanted to replicate what actual lifeguards wore. At one point, one of the co-creators of the show had this whole description about how they wanted the suits to work in the water, in big surf. They were talking about how if you’re a real lifeguard, you have multiple victims that can be grabbing onto your hair, your suit, your arms, your legs, and they could easily rip off a swimsuit if they’re desperate enough. They’re drowning. So they couldn’t have two piece swimsuits. It was too risky. These needed to be legit swimsuits.
Susie Banikarim:
I think this is taking things a little literally for a TV show. No? I mean…
Jessica Bennett:
Okay, here’s the thing. This was a show that began as something that was meant to be a serious lifeguard show. This was at a time, early 90s. This was the era of LA Law, Law and Order, NYPD Blue, ER, all of these shows about doctors, cops, whatever.
Susie Banikarim:
Oh, I see.
Jessica Bennett:
Where we were going inside behind the scenes and seeing how they really worked.
Susie Banikarim:
The high stake life of lifeguarding.
Jessica Bennett:
Exactly.
Susie Banikarim:
Got it.
Jessica Bennett:
So the original conceit for Baywatch was to be a “serious lifeguard show.” And in fact, the title Baywatch, that’s actually a real name of the rescue boats that patrol Southern California beaches.
Susie Banikarim:
Oh, really?
Jessica Bennett:
Did you know that?
Susie Banikarim:
No, I did not know that.
Jessica Bennett:
I had no idea.
Susie Banikarim:
And I grew up in California.
Jessica Bennett:
So what happened was Baywatch was canceled. The serious Baywatch was canceled after its first season on NBC, and then it was basically saved by a syndication deal. In the process, the production budget was slashed by a third, and a lot of the original cast members either quit or were fired. They basically rethought the show. It got a little bit sexier. They took themselves a little bit less seriously.
Susie Banikarim:
That makes sense.
Jessica Bennett:
They didn’t have as much money. This is actually how the slow motion run gets put into the show because they were trying to save money and take up more airtime.
Susie Banikarim:
That’s amazing.
Jessica Bennett:
So they were like, let’s just slow it down. So that run actually came from one of the creators of the show. His name’s Greg Bonann. He was the one who was a lifeguard. So he sort of thought he knew everything about lifeguarding.
Susie Banikarim:
Yeah. I mean, he might’ve known everything about lifeguarding.
Jessica Bennett:
I mean, possible.
Susie Banikarim:
It also seems beside the point, but okay.
Jessica Bennett:
He also got his start as a TV producer for the Olympics.
Susie Banikarim:
Oh, interesting.
Jessica Bennett:
So he would film the athletes in slow motion to show their athleticism.
Susie Banikarim:
Oh, interesting.
Jessica Bennett:
And so he brought that idea over to Baywatch to show their athleticism and questionable. And later on, David Hasselhoff, he goes on to become an executive producer of the show, and he’s basically made it seem like the sexiness was kind of an accident.
Susie Banikarim:
Really?
Jessica Bennett:
He told Men’s Health in 2012, we didn’t have enough financing to finish the show, so we found a way to fill the hour by shooting people running in slow motion.
Susie Banikarim:
What?
Jessica Bennett:
We said, well, girls in bathing suits look good running in slow motion. So let’s just shoot that.
Susie Banikarim:
And they just put in huge chunks of that.
Jessica Bennett:
I mean, someone should do a study of this to actually figure out how much of that show percentage wise is just running in slow motion. It’s probably more than dialogue.
Susie Banikarim:
That is a fascinating way to fill time.
Jessica Bennett:
So anyway, then in 1982, in its third season, this is when Pamela Anderson is cast. She actually replaces another actor who quit because she didn’t like the new direction of the show.
Susie Banikarim:
The slow mo or the sexiness?
Jessica Bennett:
I mean, I think they go hand in hand, but Pam takes on the role of CJ Parker, who was supposed to be the most experienced lifeguard on the show.
Susie Banikarim:
Fancy.
Jessica Bennett:
She was a character who was actually partially based on Pam, the real life Pam.
Susie Banikarim:
Oh, really?
Jessica Bennett:
She was a dreamer. She was really into new agey stuff and crystals and mindfulness.
Susie Banikarim:
I love the idea that they were like, we should meet with Pam and see what she cares about, write it into character.
Jessica Bennett:
She was into animal rights.
Susie Banikarim:
Yeah, because it’s like it’s important for this to feel really authentic. Method acting.
Jessica Bennett:
Exactly. And she was constantly falling in love. So they also redid the bathing suits.
Susie Banikarim:
But the bathing suits got redone for Pam?
Jessica Bennett:
They didn’t just redo the suits for Pam, they redid them for everyone. But this was kind of part of this sexier rebrand. So what happens? Well, the new suits have a much lower scoop in the front. They have high cut legs on the sides to kind of show or fake the appearance of height. They often have this really low back, though some of them had cross backs. And it actually is funny. There’s quotes from different actors over the years talking about that swimsuit. Kelly Packard, who didn’t join until much later, but she played lifeguard April in seasons eight and nine. She once said that her swimsuit was so far up her butt that she started crying.
Susie Banikarim:
Because it was painful?
Jessica Bennett:
Yip. At a certain point, as this rebrand is happening, actually putting on the swimsuit is part of the audition, but I don’t think anyone knows this in advance. So years later, Carmen Electra has a story. She tells the New York Times about how she showed up without having shaved her legs, and she was like, oh God, I hope they don’t notice.
Susie Banikarim:
Yeah. I mean, I feel like that is something you should warn someone about, but it really does feel like it has the potential to lead to some awkward situations. It’s so objectifying.
Jessica Bennett:
Right. You’re being asked to put on the swimsuit. Well, it’s interesting because a few years ago, Esquire brought together all of the original actors and did this oral history of the show. And Traci Bingham, who played the first black Baywatch babe, she came on in ’96. So that gives you an idea of how white the show was. It started in ’89.
Susie Banikarim:
So white, I remember that show as being so white.
Jessica Bennett:
She describes being in her trailer and one of the producers coming in and asking her to put on her suit and then basically touching underneath her breasts to make sure she wasn’t padding them.
Susie Banikarim:
That’s not okay. Does Pam ever talk about that, about sort of those experiences?
Jessica Bennett:
So it’s interesting because Pam got her start in Playboy, so it sort of sets up this tone. She was discovered in her small town where she grew up in Canada. She was in her early 20s. She was at a football game, and the Jumbotron camera pans over to her and she’s wearing this crop top with Labatt’s, that beer brand on it. And so of course, Labatt’s is like, who is this woman?
Susie Banikarim:
Amazing, who gets discovered this way?
Jessica Bennett:
Let’s hire her to be our [inaudible 00:16:00] model. And so she goes on to become Playboy’s most photographed cover model of all time.
Susie Banikarim:
Oh, wow.
Jessica Bennett:
But that takes a few years. So at this time, she was working as the tool time girl in Home Improvement.
Pamela Anderson:
I don’t think so Al.
Jessica Bennett:
The whole role of the tool time girl was not to speak, but just to look cute in a pair of Daisy Dukes and have a tool belt on and hand over the tools. And so that was the period she was in when she auditioned for Baywatch.
Susie Banikarim:
It’s interesting because I do really think of Playboy and Pam as very intrinsically connected. To me, when I think of the classic Playboy cover model, I do think of Pam.
Jessica Bennett:
And that’s so interesting too, because actually Baywatch and Playboy are intrinsically connected in some way.
Susie Banikarim:
Oh, really?
Jessica Bennett:
Playboy became this kind of natural casting choice for Baywatch at the time. Also, a side note, it was often jokingly referred to as Babe Watch.
Susie Banikarim:
Yeah, that feels right.
Jessica Bennett:
So in season one, the actress who played Shauni McClain, this was a character who was on the first two seasons. She had previously posed for Playboy, then came Pam as CJ Parker, later on Carmen Electra, who played Lani McKenzie, Kelly Monaco, who made several appearances. Playboy even did a Babes of Baywatch issue in the late 90s.
Susie Banikarim:
Oh, interesting.
Jessica Bennett:
So they were going to Playboy in some ways to recruit actors for Baywatch. And in that same oral history I mentioned for Esquire, it’s funny because one of the producers basically says in front of all the other actors that they basically hired a bunch of hot women who would look good in a swimsuit but couldn’t act.
Susie Banikarim:
I mean, that makes sense because looking good in a magazine has nothing to do with being able to deliver dialogue, but they sure could run.
Jessica Bennett:
I didn’t realize how big Baywatch was until I was researching this.
Susie Banikarim:
Oh, right, yes you mentioned that.
Jessica Bennett:
It was one of the first TV shows to be syndicated, which meant that basically they could run it on multiple channels, which probably explains what it seems like it was on all the time.
Susie Banikarim:
It makes sense. It was on all the time.
Jessica Bennett:
At its height it had billions of viewers, literally billions. It was the most watched TV show in the world. And actually at a certain point, it was literally shown in every country in the world.
Susie Banikarim:
Every country?
Jessica Bennett:
Yep.
Susie Banikarim:
How is that even possible?
Jessica Bennett:
I fact check this.
Susie Banikarim:
Okay. I mean, I believe you. It’s just…
Jessica Bennett:
Some of the foreign syndications eventually started including what Pam calls the Pamela Clause, which meant that they wouldn’t buy the episodes unless she appeared in them.
Susie Banikarim:
Om my God.
Jessica Bennett:
She of course didn’t get paid any extra for that.
Susie Banikarim:
Of course, but that’s impressive.
Jessica Bennett:
And then one of the most interesting things I found was that there’s actually an economic theory name for Baywatch having something to do with the export of culture into foreign countries called the Baywatch Effect.
Susie Banikarim:
Oh, so that’s interesting because it’s not really even just an economic export, right? It’s like the way we think about America, the way other people in other countries think about us must be so shaped by this sort of quintessential California show. I mean, I grew up in a large part in California, so I always sort of had this image of the quintessential California girl, but that becomes just the American girl in most places.
Jessica Bennett:
Absolutely. Which actually reminds me of Borat.
Borat:
All I could think about was this lovely woman in her red water panties. Who was this CJ?
Susie Banikarim:
Oh, right. Because in that movie, he’s going looking for Pam Anderson. He’s here to marry Pam, and then he tries to kidnap her. It’s such a huge theme.
Jessica Bennett:
Because that’s all that he knows of America.
Susie Banikarim:
Yeah, I mean, it makes sense. And it’s interesting because I do really think for most of the world, that sort of blonde Barbie girl is what America represents to them in some ways, this sort of carefree, sunny lifestyle.
Jessica Bennett:
And of course, I grew up in Seattle, which is the opposite of the sunny, happy lifestyle. It’s the suicide capital of the world.
Susie Banikarim:
Oh, interesting. Did not know that.
Jessica Bennett:
Strangely I also grew up watching Pamela Anderson on Baywatch awkwardly with my… God, I distinctly remember this with my two younger brothers who are twins. They’re three years younger, and my dad in our dingy TV room.
Susie Banikarim:
Together as a family?
Jessica Bennett:
As a family. And how did that happen? I do remember my mom always kind making remarks about how this was trash TV.
Susie Banikarim:
Yeah. I mean, it’s trashy.
Jessica Bennett:
And I think there was just not a lot else on. We didn’t have cable. There weren’t that many options. And this was on NBC, so it was supposedly a family friendly show. Okay. Pam joined that show in 1992. I was in middle school. I was insecure, hated my body. I had just taken part in a protest called Skirt Fest at my middle school.
Susie Banikarim:
What did that protest?
Jessica Bennett:
My seventh grade boyfriend had been kicked out of class for wearing my skirt. This was the era… Do you remember those long flowy skirts that everyone was wearing kind of hippie, grungy kids?
Susie Banikarim:
It was the original Boho chic.
Jessica Bennett:
Yes, exactly. But not chic at all. Anyhow, he got in trouble for wearing a skirt to class and got kicked out of class. And so we staged a walkout and we picketed in front of Washington Middle School.
Susie Banikarim:
I love that for you.
Jessica Bennett:
And we got the high schoolers to come, and they supported us, and we made the local newspaper. But how does this relate to Pam? I mean, we were never wearing swimsuits because it’s dark and dreary in Seattle all the time. So the idea of us in a red swimsuit would never happen. Also, bright colors, we don’t do that in Seattle.
Susie Banikarim:
Interesting.
Jessica Bennett:
It’s gray only, and it rained every day. And yet we all knew who she was. We all knew of the sex goddess in the red swimsuit. We all, I think subconsciously still compared our bodies to that.
Susie Banikarim:
Of course. Yeah, I think it would’ve been impossible to be a preteen or teen girl in this era and not compare yourself to what was so obviously the ideal. You and I are both brunettes, for example, and I was obviously conscious of that growing up in California. I think it’s a very natural thing as a woman to see kind of what the idealized female form is in culture. And then especially as you’re sort of trying to understand your relationship with your body, ask yourself in what ways you differ from that or what ways you aspire to that. And I think most girls would’ve felt that way.
Jessica Bennett:
I mean, even in my grungy skirt in rainy, dark, depressing Seattle, that red swimsuit became synonymous with sex and the ideal. And in many ways, it was a straight male fantasy of the ideal.
Susie Banikarim:
The distillation of that fantasy.
Jessica Bennett:
It’s like, what is the impact of a swimsuit? It’s such a tiny thing. You can really dig into this and say, okay, what did that teach us about bodies? To wear a swimsuit like this one had to have absolutely bionic unmovable breasts.
Susie Banikarim:
Yeah. I mean, one thing I have thought of is that when you’re watching that slow mo run, if you were…
Jessica Bennett:
A normal…
Susie Banikarim:
Yeah, with natural breasts, your breasts would just be bouncing like crazy.
Jessica Bennett:
And Pam Anderson has talked at length about regretting her breast implants, and she got them at this time, and then she got them removed and she got them again. So it’s not like she would deny this either. But yes, that is not a swimsuit that a person with natural breasts can wear.
Susie Banikarim:
Or run in at least.
Jessica Bennett:
Or run in. The high cut… You have to be completely waxed to wear a swimsuit that high cut.
Susie Banikarim:
And that’s interesting. I feel like now, or well, now there’s a backlash, but there was this period where Brazilian bikini waxes became very ubiquitous, but when we were in the 90s, that was not super common.
Jessica Bennett:
It’s so funny because we were all getting those in high school.
Susie Banikarim:
You were?
Jessica Bennett:
Yes.
Susie Banikarim:
Wow, much more advanced than I was.
Jessica Bennett:
But actually we can’t talk about all this in a vacuum. You have to understand what was happening culturally at the time. So this is mid 90s. It’s kind of like the height of [inaudible 00:23:54] feminism. We’ve come so far toward equality that now we can objectify ourselves and it’s totally fine.
Susie Banikarim:
This is like the girls gone wild era.
Jessica Bennett:
Yes, girl’s gone wild. It’s like spring break. This is also when the breastaurant Hooters becomes a thing.
Susie Banikarim:
Oh, well, certainly I think one of the most popular sort of moments for breastaurants, as they call them, the Hooters of the world, were very much part of the mainstream cultural conversation.
Jessica Bennett:
And also shows the man show, which has male comics, and then a sideshow of women in bikinis jumping on trampolines.
Clip:
Now girls jumping on trampolines.
Jessica Bennett:
So as I was trying to think through what was happening in the culture at the time, I called up Susan Douglas. She’s a professor of media studies at the University of Michigan and the author of a book called Enlightened Sexism. And that book is fascinating because it basically makes the argument that this kind of raunchy objectification is coming on the heels of, or at the same time really as serious gains in women’s rights.
Susie Banikarim:
Oh, that’s interesting because it feels like it’s kind of a backlash to the 80s image of the Wall Street working girl with her business suit and her nude pantyhose.
Jessica Bennett:
White sneakers.
Susie Banikarim:
White sneakers with her pumps in her bag.
Jessica Bennett:
Exactly. And so in a way, this objectification is almost like a reaction to feminism and to too many or allegedly too many gains.
Susie Banikarim:
Yes because we’re always getting too ahead of ourselves.
Jessica Bennett:
And so this is what she calls, what she charms, enlightened sexism, which is essentially this idea of like, hey, full equality has been achieved. We have that Wall Street woman who is breaking the glass ceiling. So sexual objectification of women like Pamela Anderson can’t really hurt us anymore, right?
Susie Banikarim:
No, it’s progress.
Jessica Bennett:
We can be feminist and sexy. Anyway, here’s Susan, who will describe it much better than I can.
Susan Douglas:
I think it’s easy to forget what a swirl the 90s was of feminist revolt, girl power, third wave on the one hand, and the increasing objectification of women, and also the discovery of teenage girls as a really, really important niche market. So you do have this kind of revival of feminism at the same time that you have a backlash against it. And this is what made Susan Faludi’s 1991 book Backlash a smash bestseller. And you were also getting the increased sexualization of women and girls, which started back when in the 80s with Brooke Shields and those Calvin Klein ads. And so you start getting this kind of ironic sexism where of course full equality has been achieved. So it’s really not possible to hurt women anymore with sexist depictions in the media because everything is allegedly equal when of course it wasn’t.
Susie Banikarim:
It’s so interesting because I feel like this is a thing we’re kind of seeing again now. And I mean, obviously history repeats itself, but every time it feels like there’s some sort of conversation that makes men uncomfortable like Me Too, then there’s this backlash that’s like, no, it’s too far. It’s gone too far.
Jessica Bennett:
Another thing I wanted to mention, and I don’t want to give it too much credit, but that swimsuit literally spawned a generation of plastic surgery. Pam Anderson has talked, she famously got implants. She’s talked many times and she’s very open about it, about regretting it. She called it a vicious cycle that she could never break out of. Side note, Ripley’s Believe It or Not, at one point, offered to put her removed implants on display in its museum. She said no.
Susie Banikarim:
Yeah, good for her.
Jessica Bennett:
But cosmetic surgeons over the years have talked about how she truly ushered in this era of plastic surgery that made them rich. Like her body…
Susie Banikarim:
Another economic impact.
Jessica Bennett:
Exactly. Her body became the reference point. And specifically, people would come into plastic surgery offices with photos of her in that red swimsuit and say, I want that body.
Susie Banikarim:
That body specifically. So liposuction, whatever it would take to make your body look like that.
Jessica Bennett:
Lifted, sculpted, liposuction to perfection.
Clip:
Do you have any pictures of about the size that you might want to be?
Clip:
I have a picture of Pamela Anderson with me.
Jessica Bennett:
So that’s a clip from this MTV show. You might remember it. It’s from the early 2000s called I Want a Famous Face. And it shows you exactly what I’m talking about. This young woman is using Pamela Anderson as the literal reference point for the plastic surgery that she wants.
Susie Banikarim:
I mean, it kind of makes sense. Pam is beautiful. If you’re trying to get plastic surgery, it’s like a smart reference point, I guess.
Jessica Bennett:
And so of course, that show is extreme, but I actually found some pretty stunning data about plastic surgery from that time. So Pam joined Baywatch in 1992, and with the data shows is that in the next 10 years, so from 1992 to 2002, breast augmentations in America went up by 500%.
Susie Banikarim:
Oh my God. I mean, people won’t be able to see my face, but I did a comically shocked face just now.
Jessica Bennett:
It’s a huge number. And in one article I was reading about those stats, there’s this plastic surgeon quoted, who basically says, we were blessed with Baywatch.
Susie Banikarim:
Oh my God.
Jessica Bennett:
It was like an hour long plastic surgery commercial.
Susie Banikarim:
They should have given her a kickback.
Jessica Bennett:
And the funny thing is, based on my conversations with her and things she’s said over the years, as all of that is happening, she herself does not feel good about her own body.
Susie Banikarim:
That is really the true female experience. It’s like no matter how much other people admire your body, you can still find the flaws.
Jessica Bennett:
And interestingly, in Pam’s case, that’s even more complicated because so many people have literally seen her naked.
Susie Banikarim:
I mean, we haven’t even really gone into the sex tape yet.
Jessica Bennett:
Okay, so we do need to talk about the sex tape. Pam is on Baywatch. She starts dating the rockstar Tommy Lee, and during their honeymoon, they start filming. It’s what has been called in the popular culture, a sex tape. But actually it’s like a very long VHS with tender moments of them getting together and then them on their honeymoon. And yes, there are a few minutes in this very long tape of them having sex, that sex tape gets stolen from their home, from a safe in their home and distributed. And basically, Pam now talks about this as the great humiliation of her life.
Susie Banikarim:
Right. Totally without their consent. I mean, I think the popular culture now sort of assumes most sex tapes are leaked by the people in the sex tape. But in Pam’s case, it genuinely was just this personal memento that they had made of their romance, and then somehow somebody got their hands on it.
Jessica Bennett:
And this, of course, there have been podcasts done just on this tape. But yes, this is the start of online pornography. She sues them, they lose in court. But this is all happening during Baywatch. And so it connects because for a time after the tape went public foreign distributors and the networks began demanding that Pam be taken off the air. They thought this was going to be too controversial for the show. But interestingly, and maybe not that surprisingly, it actually helps Baywatch.
Susie Banikarim:
Well, now it’s not surprising because we know that Kim Kardashian’s entire career was kicked off by a sex tape. But back then, I can see how executives might’ve thought that there may be some sort of backlash against it.
Jessica Bennett:
And why are we talking about this? So the thing is, there’s this connection between that swimsuit and what would happen to her in her later life and the way that she was kind of set up as this object in many ways. She starts in Playboy where she poses nude. She goes on to be this bombshell on Baywatch that is spread across beach towels and calendars and everything else. And then there’s this sex tape, which is distributed without her consent. And it’s not just her nude, it’s pornography.
Susie Banikarim:
Yeah, it’s pornography. And there’s this real sense that her body belongs to the public.
Jessica Bennett:
Right. One of the oddest things to me in spending time with her and researching her and reading every interview she’s done, watching the documentary is this sense in truly an anecdote after anecdote after anecdote, that she almost becomes a public commodity in some way. People feel entitled to her in almost a physical sense.
Susie Banikarim:
Physical way.
Jessica Bennett:
There are a few clips where you can really hear it. She goes on Howard Stern ostensibly to talk about her career, and he ends up spending the whole time talking about how cute her private parts are.
Howard Stern:
No, you’re not going to be [inaudible 00:32:45]. Let me just look at you. Oh, perfect. Let me soak you in for a second. Come on, don’t sit down so quick.
Jessica Bennett:
Matt Lauer, who goes on to be fired for sexual misconduct, does an interview with her where the first question is asking her about her breasts.
Matt Lauer:
May we talk briefly about your breasts?
Susie Banikarim:
Oh my God. I mean, that’s so crazy because Matt Lauer was a serious journalist, like that would’ve been in a news interview.
Jessica Bennett:
Yeah, that’s a really good point. There’s another example. At one point, she takes part in a roast on Comedy Central. And so she’s agreed to do this, so in some way she’s in on the joke, but again, it’s her ex-husband, Tommy Lee, who’s roasting her. And this is the way the monologue begins.
Tommy Lee:
This is actually a special time for Pam to be here because she just turned 38 and her tits just turned 14.
Jessica Bennett:
And it’s almost like this becomes weirdly physical in a sense. People or fans feel like they’re entitled to her physical space.
Susie Banikarim:
They claw at her at events. They’re trying to get to her a lot of the time.
Jessica Bennett:
And so in her book, she has a couple of different stories. One about Tim Allen, who was a star of Home Improvement, where she was the tool time girl. And on her first day on the set, she walks out and he’s in a robe and they’re outside of the dressing rooms, and he flashes her and he says, now you’ve seen me naked too. He’s since denied that, of course, but it’s in her book. There’s another scenario that she talks about also in her memoir where she’s traveling to Uruguay for some sort of fan event, and she gets out and the car is surrounded by teen boys, hundreds and hundreds of teenage boys, and they’re shouting for her, and then suddenly they’re clawing at her, and her bodyguard has to literally throw her over his shoulder and get out of there. And by the time she gets back to the truck or the SUV or whatever, her clothes have been physically torn off of her.
Susie Banikarim:
That sounds terrifying.
Jessica Bennett:
There’s this other story she told me, which she also writes about in her book, but basically she comes home one day to Malibu when she’s living there and a deranged fan has broken into her home, is in the basement and has fallen asleep in the swimsuit.
Susie Banikarim:
Oh my God.
Jessica Bennett:
And they basically have no idea how long she’s been there.
Susie Banikarim:
God, there’s so much invasion of her autonomy.
Jessica Bennett:
Personal space. For what it’s worth, the suit is now in a safe in her son’s home.
Susie Banikarim:
It should really be in the Smithsonian.
Jessica Bennett:
It really should actually.
Susie Banikarim:
Yeah. I mean, seriously.
Jessica Bennett:
Even as late as 2003, you remember that book, the Chuck Closterman book? Sex, Drugs and Cocoa Puffs.
Susie Banikarim:
Of course.
Jessica Bennett:
He writes about Pamela Anderson in there, and there’s this quote, am I physically attracted to Pamela Anderson? Of course. But the more I see her, the more I realize I’m not looking at a person I’d like to sleep with. I’m looking at America.
Susie Banikarim:
That really is the thing, right? So intrinsically tied up with the idea of America for so many people, she becomes almost like a symbol rather than a person.
Jessica Bennett:
Right. She’s like a souvenir that everybody wants to own a piece of. And I mean, look, Pamela Anderson is certainly not the first woman in our culture to become a sexual commodity or even to own her part in that. I mean, I was thinking back to… There’s Britney Spears, Marilyn Monroe to a large degree, even I think Lil Kim in the 90s to some degree, but I’m trying to think about what the difference is for Pam. Maybe the difference is those people had careers first to fall back on before it became about their bodies, before it became about the physicality or sex. And with her, that’s what she was from the beginning, she didn’t have anything to fall back on. She was established as a sex object.
Susie Banikarim:
Like a one dimensional pinup. So people didn’t really see her as human in many ways. They don’t see her as a living, breathing human. They just really see almost this image of her in their minds that they disassociate with her as a person, and now she’s sort of taking control of her narrative. She’s written this book, she’s doing all this.
Jessica Bennett:
She’s inserting some of the complexity back in. I don’t know how much time you’re spending on TikTok these days.
Susie Banikarim:
Well, I do spend a lot of time on TikTok. An embarrassing amount.
Jessica Bennett:
There’s this whole hashtag pam core. It is a full aesthetic. It is back.
Susie Banikarim:
I haven’t seen that.
Jessica Bennett:
People are doing the thin penciled eyebrows, the lip liner, the tousled bun on the top of the head, the bangs.
Susie Banikarim:
Is this part of the bimbo core thing?
Jessica Bennett:
It’s a little bit bimbo core. It’s a little bit Barbie core. And Pam is back. But I have to tell you this other story actually, which is that when I was with her at her home in Canada, we were sitting in her kitchen. We were baking Christmas cookies.
Susie Banikarim:
Oh, that sounds nice. It’s like a celebrity Hallmark movie.
Jessica Bennett:
Totally. And actually, she’s an amazing cook. So I’m recording all of this, obviously, because I was doing this profile of her, and so we’re hanging out in the kitchen. Her assistant, Jonathan was near us. He’s sort of helping out. And I pull out my phone to show her this TikTok filter that lets you basically put 90s Pam onto your 2023 human not Pam face. And so Pam is not on social media, so she’d never seen this. And she literally screamed.
Pamela Anderson:
Oh, that’s so funny. What the fuck? That’s insane. You got to do this one. What the hell? I mean, my kids know about this. This is insane. This is the extent of my… That’s hysterical.
Susie Banikarim:
That’s such a sweet and funny moment. It’s really lovely to hear her finally getting to enjoy some of this attention and actually be able to laugh at all the absurdity of it.
Jessica Bennett:
Yeah, I mean, I was actually thinking about that. It kind of wraps up the idea for this episode perfectly. There are certainly parts of Pamela Anderson’s life in retrospect, that she wants to stay in the past. She doesn’t want to be that cartoonish, 90s version of herself, and she has said that, but at least now she’s getting to decide what she wants to embrace and what she wants to leave behind. And in some ways, the suit actually is a happy memory for her. Here’s what she said when I asked her about it recently.
Pamela Anderson:
It just represents a time in my history, one of my favorite times, just to be so carefree on the beach working. When my sons were just born, putting on that red swimsuit just a couple of months after I gave birth. I still had to get back in the suit. I don’t know. It makes me feel happy to think about it. It was really a beautiful time in my life.
Susie Banikarim:
That really does feel like a perfect place to end it.
Jessica Bennett:
Yeah, it really does. So I guess that’s our show for this week. See you next week.
Susie Banikarim:
This is In Retrospect. Thanks for listening. Is there a cultural moment you can’t stop thinking about and want us to explore in a future episode? Email us at [email protected] or find us on Instagram @inretropod.
Jessica Bennett:
If you love this podcast, please rate and review us on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you hate it, you can post nasty comments on our Instagram which we may or may not delete.
Susie Banikarim:
You can also find us on Instagram @jessicabennett and @susiebnyc. Also check out Jessica’s books, Feminist Fight Club and This is 18.
Jessica Bennett:
In Retrospect is a production of iHeart podcast and The Meteor. Lauren Hansen is our supervising producer. Derrick Clements is our engineer and sound designer. Sharon Attia is our researcher and associate producer.
Susie Banikarim:
Our executive producer from The Meteor is Cindy Leive. Our executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stumpf and Katrina Norvell. Our artwork is from Pentagram. Additional editing help from Mary Do and Mike Coscarelli. Sound correction and mastering by Amanda Rose Smith. We are your hosts, Susie Banikarim.
Jessica Bennett:
And Jessica Bennett. We’re also executive producers. For even more, check out inretropod.com. See you next week.
Susie Banikarim: It may have been fictional, but this wedding, a two-day television event, was celebrated by fans as the wedding of the decade. More people watched it than the real wedding of Prince Charles and Princess Diana, which happened that same year. But what is often forgotten about this iconic soap opera couple, is that just a few years before this, Luke sexually assaulted Laura. [00:01:00] I’m Susie Banikarim.
Jessica Bennett: And I’m Jessica Bennett.
Susie Banikarim: This is In Retrospect, where each week we revisit a cultural moment from the past that shaped us.
Jessica Bennett: And that we just can’t stop thinking about.
Susie Banikarim: Today we’re talking about how one of TV’s most famous and beloved relationships started with a rape. But we’re also talking about the incredible powers soap operas once had in shaping public perception. For better and for worse.
Jessica Bennett: So Susie, I know nothing about soap operas except that there is one starring a woman named Jessica Bennett, who shares my name.
Susie Banikarim: Is that true?
Jessica Bennett: Uh, it’s called Passion. Yeah.
Susie Banikarim: Oh, Passion. That was a short-lived, but very wild soap opera.
Jessica Bennett: She remains on Wikipedia. Anyway, were you a huge General Hospital fan, like, how- what led you to this moment?
Susie Banikarim: So I wasn’t a General Hospital fan, specifically. I did occasionally watch it, but I was a huge soap opera fan. I would come home in middle [00:02:00] school and watch soap operas every afternoon.
Jessica Bennett: Okay.
Susie Banikarim: I was a Days of Our Life-
Jessica Bennett: Girl.
Susie Banikarim: One Life to Live girl, which was kind of unusual, because it was split. Days of Our Lives was-
Jessica Bennett: Oh, right.
Susie Banikarim: … on NBC. Do you remember the tagline for Days of Our Lives?
Jessica Bennett: No.
Susie Banikarim: Like sands through the hourglass…
CLIP: Like sands through the hourglass…
Jessica Bennett: Oh, yeah, I do remember. Okay.
Susie Banikarim: … so are the days of our lives.
CLIP: … so are the days of our lives.
Susie Banikarim: I would come home from school and I would watch with a snack every afternoon and then eventually I went to boarding school for high school, but when I came home, it was, like, something I looked forward to. Like a summer or winter break indulgence. And I think that’s kind of why I wanted to focus on this subject, this relationship, because soap operas were just so influential for generations of American girls and women. I mean, also some boys, obviously, but they really were geared towards women and this particular plot line really came at the peak of their popularity. And so it seems worth exploring this [00:03:00] relationship that was seen as so romantic, but started with an assault.
Jessica Bennett: As you say that, I’m remembering that I mentioned this to my mother-in-law recently and she revealed that actually my husband, like, the first three years of his life, she would constantly have this show on in the background while they were just, I don’t know, hanging out doing baby stuff or whatever.
Susie Banikarim: [laughs]
Jessica Bennett: And, you know, guess what? She remembers this relationship between Luke and Laura as completely romantic.
Susie Banikarim: I think that’s what most people thought.
Jessica Bennett: Yeah, and they go on to have this decades long relationship, so that makes a lot of sense. I mean, Laura is still actually a character on the show, but for those who didn’t grow up on General Hospital, can you give us a little primer on what the show was?
Susie Banikarim: Yeah. It was a soap opera that started in 1963.
CLIP: General Hospital.
Susie Banikarim: And had its heyday in the 1980s. It was just hugely popular. It was about two families living in the fictional town of Port Charles, New York, and their various trials and tribulations and not surprisingly, it was centered in a hospital. You might [00:04:00] say it was the original Grey’s Anatomy and what went on there, sometimes it would go off in weird adventures, but that’s really been the core of the show for the last 60 years.
Jessica Bennett: Okay, so Luke and Laura are characters who do not work in that hospital?
Susie Banikarim: Yeah. No, they don’t work in the hospital. Not literally everyone on the show works in the hospital.
Jessica Bennett: Got it.
Susie Banikarim: They just live in Port Charles.
Jessica Bennett: Okay. And where should we begin in terms of their, can we call it a relationship?
Susie Banikarim: Yeah, I mean, it’s not a relationship in the beginning, right? Because of the way it starts, but I actually want to begin with the wedding, because I think that that’s the moment that becomes such a cultural phenomenon.
Jessica Bennett: Right, right.
Susie Banikarim: It was a two-day event, so it’s two hours long.
Jessica Bennett: Oh, wow.
Susie Banikarim: There’s, like, really long stretches of them just, like, driving up in cars.
Jessica Bennett: Uh-huh, uh-huh.
Susie Banikarim: Like, the bridesmaids, the groomsmen.
Jessica Bennett: Yup.
Susie Banikarim: And then there’s this really long stretch of them just, like, literally greeting the guests.
Jessica Bennett: It’s like an actual wedding.
Susie Banikarim: Which is why it’s fascinating that it was the most watched soap opera episode of all time.
Jessica Bennett: [00:05:00] Wow.
Susie Banikarim: Like, people loved it. They wanted to feel like they were there at this wedding, because they were obsessed with this couple.
Jessica Bennett: Wow. Why were people so obsessed with this couple? Like, what was the appeal?
Susie Banikarim: So, I mean, it’s hard to say. You- to some degree you don’t ever know why people become really attached to certain characters on television or certain storylines, but Laura’s actually kind of an interesting character-
Jessica Bennett: Mm-hmm.
Susie Banikarim: … because she’s already become a pretty central character to General Hospital when Luke is introduced.
Jessica Bennett: Okay.
Susie Banikarim: And that’s because they’re trying to push towards younger audiences.
Jessica Bennett: Ah, okay.
Susie Banikarim: So she’s a teenager.
Jessica Bennett: Interesting.
Susie Banikarim: And I think one of the quotes I read from a fan was, like, we love her because she’s 16 like us, but she lives the life of a 28-year-old.
Jessica Bennett: Okay.
Susie Banikarim: That’s partially why I wanted to start with the wedding, because you kind of need to understand that this wasn’t just, like, a popular episode of television. It was literally the closest thing Americans had to a royal wedding. A- and just to prove that I’m not exaggerating-
Jessica Bennett: Mm-hmm.
Susie Banikarim: … more people tuned in to watch this fake wedding than tuned in when Meghan Markle and Prince [00:06:00] Harry had their actual wedding in 2018.
Jessica Bennett: Whoa. What, that is wild.
Susie Banikarim: Yeah. And, like, local news sent correspondents to viewing parties, like, all across Manhattan. From an office in Madison Avenue to a dorm at NYU.
Jessica Bennett: [laughs]
NEWS CLIP: Fans all across the country watched for the big moment. To them it was their wedding.
NEWS CLIP: Of course we’re excited.
NEWS CLIP: Not a dry eye in the house.
NEWS CLIP: By the way, three years for them to get married, I feel like [inaudible 00:06:22].
NEWS CLIP: You like Luke?
NEWS CLIP: I love Luke.
NEWS CLIP: Why?
NEWS CLIP: Uh, he’s sexy. It’s time for them to get together.
NEWS CLIP: It’s been two years. It’s time for them to-
NEWS CLIP: You know, they’re very much in love and it’s really a beautiful thing.
Susie Banikarim: It was just this wildly popular thing, even among celebrities. Like, Elizabeth Taylor was such a fan of the show that she requested to be on it.
Jessica Bennett: Okay.
Susie Banikarim: And made a guest appearance and you can kind of see her in-
Jessica Bennett: Yes, yes.
Susie Banikarim: … the background of many shots. She’s playing a villain who is cursing them-
Jessica Bennett: Oh, okay.
Susie Banikarim: … on their wedding day. And also, this is the year where Diana and Charles got married.
Jessica Bennett: Okay.
Susie Banikarim: And they had a real wedding.
Jessica Bennett: Right.
Susie Banikarim: But then this is such a big [00:07:00] moment that Diana sends champagne for this fake wedding. [laughs] She sends the actors-
Jessica Bennett: Whoa.
Susie Banikarim: … champagne to congratulate them on their fake wedding.
Jessica Bennett: Oh, wow. Oh my God, okay.
Susie Banikarim: Which, like, an amazing little detail here is that Genie Francis is underage when this wedding happens.
Jessica Bennett: Genie Francis who plays Laura.
Susie Banikarim: Genie Francis who plays Laura Spencer is 20, and so they don’t-
Jessica Bennett: She can’t drink.
Susie Banikarim: … even give it to her. She doesn’t know about the champagne until years later when they’re doing an interview.
Jessica Bennett: What kind of champagne do you think it was?
Susie Banikarim: I don’t know. I don’t know what kind of champagne it was, but, um, I think Luke said he liked kept the bo- I mean, it-
Jessica Bennett: Oh, wow.
Susie Banikarim: … imagine getting a bottle of champagne from who- what was, like, the most famous woman in the world at that time.
Jessica Bennett: So wha- okay, so the culture or the world is kind of treating this fake wedding like a real wedding.
Susie Banikarim: People took the day off work. And there’s, like, a note in the research that someone was, like, hey, I told my boss I was going to a wedding, because I was.
Jessica Bennett: Oh my God. [laughs]
Susie Banikarim: You know, like, bars played it. Like, people gathered around in bars at lunchtime in droves-
Jessica Bennett: Yeah.
Susie Banikarim: … to watch this wedding and, I mean, a thing that I think people sort of forget, [00:08:00] it’s hard now to remember what a stranglehold soap operas had on the culture-
Jessica Bennett: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Susie Banikarim: … in the 80s.
Jessica Bennett: Or even television.
Susie Banikarim: Yeah, and television. I mean, they also made the most money.
Jessica Bennett: Yeah.
Susie Banikarim: And like, I think part of the thing is, yes, a lot of people watch them, but more than that, for the networks, uh, ABC, for example, they made up 50% of revenue.
Jessica Bennett: Oh wow.
Susie Banikarim: So had an enormous amount of power.
Jessica Bennett: Yes.
Susie Banikarim: And that’s why suddenly you see all these actors, these famous actors who got their start on soap operas, it’s because soap operas have money to pay actors and prime time, you know, it had money, but not the way soap operas did. And that wasn’t always the case, right? Soap operas initially were kind of seen as this thing for women, made by women.
Jessica Bennett: Mm-hmm.
Susie Banikarim: This sort of silly ridiculous thing. And, you know, it could be silly and ridiculous and we can talk about that, but daytime was an enormously powerful arena at this point.
Jessica Bennett: I don’t think I fully appreciated that. That soap operas had huge power to shape culture and also that it was women both making and watching them.
Susie Banikarim: [00:09:00] Yeah. Initially soap operas were really watched by stay-at-home moms and that’s kind of why initially they’re dismissed.
Jessica Bennett: Mm-hmm.
Susie Banikarim: But then this thing happens at the end of the 70s where a lot of women enter the workforce and there’s a dip in viewership.
Jessica Bennett: Okay.
Susie Banikarim: But then the women who are staying at home start to allow their children to watch TV with them.
Jessica Bennett: Okay, okay.
Susie Banikarim: That’s kind of like a shift. And so a lot of girls and boys who are home with their moms become addicted to these shows.
Jessica Bennett: I see.
Susie Banikarim: And then it becomes common to be a college student who gathers around-
Jessica Bennett: Right, this is why there’s viewing parties in these dorm rooms.
Susie Banikarim: Yes. You know, a common thing that was talked about amongst soap fans, is that they would schedule their classes around their soap operas.
Jessica Bennett: Wow. It’s such a different time.
Susie Banikarim: It’s, like, worth noting that even though soap operas aren’t that popular now, General Hospital is still on the air.
Jessica Bennett: Oh, right.
Susie Banikarim: I mean, people forget that.
Jessica Bennett: Yes.
Susie Banikarim: But it is the longest running scripted drama and the longest running American soap opera. I- I-
Jessica Bennett: How do you watch that now?
Susie Banikarim: It started airing in 1963. You can watch it on television. What do you mean? You watch it on ABC.
Jessica Bennett: Like, watch it, [00:10:00] you do?
Susie Banikarim: Yeah. You could watch it in the afternoon on ABC. And by the way, two million people still do.
Jessica Bennett: Okay, okay.
Susie Banikarim: And I think the thing that’s different is there’s, like, a lot of options now.
Jessica Bennett: Yeah.
Susie Banikarim: So it doesn’t seem as popular.
Jessica Bennett: Right.
Susie Banikarim: But two million people is not a paltry number. That’s way more than most cable shows get.
Jessica Bennett: Right.
Susie Banikarim: But we don’t think about it as a cultural phenomenon because it seems so low in comparison to the fact that in their heyday-
Jessica Bennett: Right.
Susie Banikarim: … one in fifteen Americans watched General Hospital.
Jessica Bennett: So we’re talking about a storyline on General Hospital involving the two most popular characters, Luke and Laura. These are characters America obsessed over in the 1980s. 30 million people tuned in to watch their wedding. But when you say out loud how that relationship [00:11:00] began, which is with Luke assaulting Laura, it almost feels like it can’t be true.
Susie Banikarim: Yeah. It is hard to believe. And we’re about to walk you through the assault scene, which will make it feel unfortunately very real. But first I want to give you some background on how we get to that scene.
Jessica Bennett: Mm-hmm.
Susie Banikarim: And I’m going to actually blow your mind-
Jessica Bennett: [laughs]
Susie Banikarim: … with so many things here, because to begin with, Luke is Laura’s boss.
Jessica Bennett: Oh, okay. Where did they work?
Susie Banikarim: Um, at a disco.
Jessica Bennett: They work at a disco.
Susie Banikarim: Laura is 17. Luckily for Laura she’s already married. She’s 17 and married.
Jessica Bennett: Oh, okay. Only a crime.
Susie Banikarim: So Laura and Scotty were actually, like, a pretty popular soap opera couple in their own right, but, you know, the whole thing on soap operas is if there’s a happy couple, they must face, like, an-
Jessica Bennett: Right.
Susie Banikarim: … extraordinary number of obstacles. Like they must get kidnapped, they must get cloned, so the obstacle that’s thrown in Laura’s and Scotty’s relationship is Luke. There is a nurse at the hospital that’s [00:12:00] obsessed with Scotty. So she asks her brother, Luke, to come to town and try and seduce Laura.
Jessica Bennett: Okay.
Susie Banikarim: And Luke wasn’t even really supposed to be a major character on the show. He was just brought in as a temporary character who was going to be a bad boy, an obstacle in Laura’s relationship with her husband, Scotty. But the writers had planned from the beginning that he was going to rape her, because they wanted that storyline for ratings.
Jessica Bennett: Wild.
Susie Banikarim: Wild. The- the- the ratings have started to wane. You know, they’re making an effort to bring in younger viewers. It’s working a little bit with Laura, but this is the last rated TV show.
Jessica Bennett: Oh, so it’s not doing good at this time.
Susie Banikarim: At this time it’s not doing good. It’s the lowest rated soap opera on TV. It’s, like, number 12 or something.
Jessica Bennett: Okay.
Susie Banikarim: And there’s so many soap operas on TV-
Jessica Bennett: Right.
Susie Banikarim: … at this time. And that’s actually what makes it so remarkable that within three years, it’s literally the number one show.
Jessica Bennett: Can you imagine being, like, ah, our show’s doing really bad. What can we do to- to get better ratings? I know-
Susie Banikarim: Right.
Jessica Bennett: … let’s stage a rape.
Susie Banikarim: Yeah. [00:13:00] I mean, it is wild. But it does work.
Jessica Bennett: Okay.
Susie Banikarim: And I think one of the things that’s interesting is the executive producer that was brought in at that time came from TV movies where rape was a much more common topic.
Jessica Bennett: Mm-hmm.
Susie Banikarim: But it was presented more from, like, the crime aspect. And so I think that’s why-
Jessica Bennett: Not a love story?
Susie Banikarim: Not a love story. And I think that’s why she has this idea to introduce this rape-
Jessica Bennett: Okay.
Susie Banikarim: … and knows that that is, like, popular with viewers. That must be kind of what she’s thinking when she introduces this character.
Jessica Bennett: Okay. So this new 32-year-old character, Luke, ends up hiring 17-year-old Laura at his nightclub.
Susie Banikarim: Yes. So Laura has gone to Luke who runs the big disco in town to ask for a job and he hires her and meanwhile, he has some shady backdoor dealings with the mob. That’s why he’s, like, such a bad boy.
Jessica Bennett: Okay.
Susie Banikarim: And that’s his back story. So the context of this scene is that Luke has gotten mixed up with these mobsters who are forcing him to [00:14:00] kill a local politician-
Jessica Bennett: Okay.
Susie Banikarim: … and he feels like if he kills this other person, he will also be killed.
Jessica Bennett: Okay.
Susie Banikarim: And so this scene picks up where she has seen him crying, because he is like, “I’m a dead man walking.”
Jessica Bennett: Okay.
CLIP Laura: How come you’re crying?
CLIP Luke: I wasn’t crying.
CLIP Laura: Yes, you were. And you didn’t know that I was here.
Jessica Bennett: At first I was, like, oh, that’s kind of progressive of them. Like, you’re showing tears.
Susie Banikarim: It’s not going to be so progressive.
CLIP Laura: Luke, I’m sure that whatever it is, it can be worked out in time.
CLIP Luke: Time is what I don’t have.
Jessica Bennett: They’re sort of setting it up that, like, if you don’t have time, then you must have the woman you love.
Susie Banikarim: And that’s definitely how the story plays, that he knows he’s running out of time, he’s so in love with her-
Jessica Bennett: Right.
Susie Banikarim: That he must have her this one time.
Jessica Bennett: He ra- he has to act on this love lust.
CLIP Luke: I said I was going to be dead, killed, little lady. Can’t you get that through your head? Now get out of here.
Susie Banikarim: So [00:15:00] he’s pushing her away, because essentially the message is he can’t control himself. And then he professes his love.
CLIP Luke: Dammit, Laura. I’m in love with you.
CLIP Laura: No, I d- I don’t think it’s really love, Luke. I-
CLIP Luke: Oh, yes. It’s just what it is.
Susie Banikarim: And then randomly in the middle of all of this, Luke walks over dramatically to the record player, flips it on and a song comes on and he turns to her and says, “I can’t die without holding you in my arms just one time.”
CLIP Luke: Dance with me, Laura.
CLIP Laura: No.
Jessica Bennett: You really feel that the tension is building and then things clearly unravel.
CLIP Laura: Luke, let me call a taxi, please.
Jessica Bennett: And so you don’t see the rape itself.
CLIP Laura: No. Don’t, Luke, let me go.
Susie Banikarim: But it’s unambiguous.
CLIP Laura: No. No.
Jessica Bennett: Yes.
Susie Banikarim: You definitely hear a rape.
Jessica Bennett: So clothes are ripped. She’s looking upset. She’s crying.
Susie Banikarim: She’s cowering.
Jessica Bennett: She’s clearly said no ahead of time.
Susie Banikarim: Yeah, she’s screaming no when it-
Jessica Bennett: Yes.
Susie Banikarim: … starts and grows. It’s a kind of jarring moment because it happens pretty suddenly. Like, you go [00:16:00] from being, like-
Jessica Bennett: I actually do get goosebumps watching it.
Susie Banikarim: Yeah. Because you’re sort of, like, oh, it’s going to be a seduction and then suddenly it’s a rape.
Jessica Bennett: Yes.
Susie Banikarim: And cut to disco lights. There’s a commercial break. We come back. We’re back on the disco lights. It’s, like, very-
Jessica Bennett: Yes, yes.
Susie Banikarim: … surreal kind of vibe. And then the thing that really drives home that this is a rape is she’s now lying on the ground. She is cowering.
Jessica Bennett: Her clothes are torn.
Susie Banikarim: She’s crying. Her clothes are torn. He is standing above her. He seems like he’s in a bit of a daze. And the phone rings and you sort of get the sense that that’s supposed to, like, break his reverie.
Jessica Bennett: Yes, yes.
Susie Banikarim: And she sneaks away.
Jessica Bennett: And it’s her husband, Scotty.
Susie Banikarim: And it’s her husband on the phone and he’s like, “Have you seen Laura?” And Luke lies about it. So that’s kind of the acknowledgement that he knows he’s done something wrong.
Jessica Bennett: Yes.
Susie Banikarim: Because he’s lying about whether or not she’s been there. And that’s the scene.
Jessica Bennett: Okay, that was a lot. But one other strange detail I have to mention is, [00:17:00] so that song that’s playing in the background when the assault occurs. This is the song that Luke kind of dramatically goes up to the record player and turns on and it’s this jazz funk instrumental hit. This is a real song. It’s called, Rise. And that song then goes on to become number one on the Billboard charts.
Susie Banikarim: I know, it’s crazy.
Jessica Bennett: And, like, for a jazz funk instrumental, that was as rare then as it is today.
Susie Banikarim: Yeah.
Jessica Bennett: And it’s funny, actually. I don’t know if you remember this, you called me and I was in Palm Springs with a friend.
Susie Banikarim: Yeah.
Jessica Bennett: And, uh, you know, we had shopped, naturally-
Susie Banikarim: [laughs]
Jessica Bennett: … um, and… Yeah, exactly.
Susie Banikarim: That’s where either of us would be at any given moment.
Jessica Bennett: And we had just gotten out of the car where that song was playing. And this friend of mine who happens to have written her, like, college thesis on rape in soap operas-
Susie Banikarim: Amazing.
Jessica Bennett: … I know, maybe we should call her, is like, “Oh, do you know what this song is?” And she explains this to me and I’m like, “What?” And then you called me and you’re like, “Remember that moment in General Hospital?” Which of course I didn’t really remember, but this song goes on to be at the top of all of the charts [00:18:00] and actually, our younger listeners, uh, might recognize it because 20 years later, Puff Daddy actually puts a clip of it into Biggie’s song, Hypnotize.
Susie Banikarim: Oh yeah, excellent song, by the way.
Jessica Bennett: Which, like, I can hear that in the back of my mind as we’re listening to this. So it’s sampled in Hypnotize in 1997, because Puffy later says in an interview, like, this was the song of the summer when he was, like, 10 years old in New York. Like, all the kids-
Susie Banikarim: Everyone was listening to it.
Jessica Bennett: … were, like, jamming and rollerskating to this song. Which, of course, was popular because of this rape scene. How do we get from this clearly very traumatic scene between Luke and Laura, which happens in 1979, to then this star-studded royal level wedding two years later?
Susie Banikarim: That’s the crazy part, right? As I mentioned, Luke was supposed to be a temporary character. He was supposed to come on, you know, have this violent scene with [00:19:00] Laura and then he was supposed to be killed.
Jessica Bennett: Mm-hmm.
Susie Banikarim: And what happens is, audiences respond so well to him and, again, let me acknowledge how wild that is, he was so immediately popular that producers decided they wanted to find a way to keep him on the show.
Jessica Bennett: Wait, and how did they know he’s so popular?
Susie Banikarim: Well, partially because the way soaps worked is, since they were being produced so quickly-
Jessica Bennett: Uh-huh.
Susie Banikarim: … and because they’re on every day-
Jessica Bennett: Yeah.
Susie Banikarim: … the network is able to gauge almost immediately audience sentiment.
Jessica Bennett: Okay.
Susie Banikarim: So they’re using actual data that’s showing them that Luke is quite popular.
Jessica Bennett: Okay. So, like, we’ve got to keep Luke.
Susie Banikarim: Yeah. This gets some coverage at the time. The ratings weren’t good before this. The ratings started to creep up, so they do not kill him off.
Jessica Bennett: Okay.
Susie Banikarim: But that leaves them-
Jessica Bennett: With a problem.
Susie Banikarim: … with a bit of a conundrum, which is, if audiences are falling in love with Luke and really feel drawn to this romance between him and Laura-
Jessica Bennett: Mm-hmm.
Susie Banikarim: … and want Laura to end up with Luke, not Scotty, [00:20:00] how do they reconcile that with the violent rape-
Jessica Bennett: That has occurred.
Susie Banikarim: … has occurred, and also that they have acknowledged as such. And just to really put a fine point on the fact that the show never really tried to make the rape ambiguous. Initially, she goes to crisis counseling after this, on the show.
Jessica Bennett: Okay.
Susie Banikarim: Like, they do not initially shy away from the fact that it’s a rape. They will eventually and we’ll get into all of that, but when it happens, it is really clear what’s happened. Tony Geary, the actor who played Luke-
Jessica Bennett: Okay.
Susie Banikarim: … actually says in an interview at some point, we never expected the audience to be, like, on Luke’s side. And so, we did a rape and then the audience fell in love with Luke and that wasn’t our fault, so what were we supposed to do? And, like, maybe the thing you were supposed to do, was be, like, hey guys, rape is bad.
Jessica Bennett: Right.
Susie Banikarim: But instead, they are moving the needle over and over again.
Jessica Bennett: Okay.
Susie Banikarim: Until they literally re-shoot [00:21:00] the scenes. They literally go back-
Jessica Bennett: So that they can appear in flashbacks?
Susie Banikarim: So that the scenes they’re showing for flashbacks aren’t as disturbing.
Jessica Bennett: Oh, wow.
Susie Banikarim: They’re literally softening the thing over and over and over again. And the characters being gaslit in real time, the audience is being gaslit in real time.
CLIP Luke: Maybe you should name me as the rapist.
CLIP Laura: They’ll put you in jail.
CLIP Luke: Maybe that’s where I belong.
CLIP Laura: No, don’t say that. You’re not a criminal.
Susie Banikarim: Then, by the time the wedding happens, the thing that’s kind of interesting is that by the time 30 million people are watching the wedding, a lot of those people have never seen the rape. They don’t even know-
Jessica Bennett: They don’t even know how the relationship began.
Susie Banikarim: Right, and they have only seen these sanitized, softened, more romantic flashbacks. And actually they even removed the song. They stopped playing the song, because the song is, like, so associated-
Jessica Bennett: Oh. Evokes…
Susie Banikarim: … with the rape.
Jessica Bennett: Oh, that’s so interesting.
Susie Banikarim: And when they’re, [00:22:00] like, re-shooting these scenes and softening them up, there’s a thing that happens that’s actually quite controversial for the people at the time who remember that it’s a rape. I mean, there is an audience that remembers.
Jessica Bennett: Yeah.
Susie Banikarim: And at one point Laura is narrating the scene and she describes it as the first time Luke and I made love.
Jessica Bennett: Oh, wow.
Susie Banikarim: And there is a reaction. It’s not, like, a huge national reaction or anything, but there are people at that time who were, like, what is happening?
Jessica Bennett: And actually we know one of those people. One of our executive producers, Cindy Leive.
Susie Banikarim: Yeah, Cindy is a journalist, the former editor of Glamour magazine and the co-founder of The Meteor. But most relevant to this conversation, she was a General Hospital super fan.
Cindy Leive: I started watching it probably in 1979 and watched it with varying levels of religious devotion until around 1984 or ’85. I was part of that generation X, so called latchkey kid generation [00:23:00] and so I used to come home and General Hospital was kind of my babysitter. Like, my parents were divorced and my mom worked and I would race home from school so that I could turn on ABC, Channel 7, and watch it at three o’clock. Usually with a humongous bowl of coffee ice cream. It was, like, a comfort hour for me.
Susie Banikarim: Why did you love it so much?
Cindy Leive: [laughs] Um, it was just fascinating. I just had never seen anything like it before. I remember these super adult plots. Prostitution, there was Bobby Spencer who used to be a quote, unquote, hooker and there were a lot of plots around infidelity. And then there was Luke and Laura. Laura was supposed to be sort of in her late teens, even though she seemed incredibly glamorous and grown up to me at the time.
Susie Banikarim: Do you remember what you initially thought when Luke showed up?
Cindy Leive: I have a vague memory that Luke Spencer was supposed to be a kind of bad boy character. He [00:24:00] ran a disco. Mostly I remember his kind of open neck shirts and his permed hair, although I didn’t know it was permed at the time. But he had kind of an allure.
Susie Banikarim: You’ve told me in the past that you were watching the episode when Luke raped Laura. Can you describe that experience?
Cindy Leive: So there’s this one Friday. I couldn’t tell you what time of year it was. I couldn’t tell you the month, but I know it was a Friday afternoon, which is when they always did the big happenings or cliffhangers. And I came home from school, I was watching by myself. And Luke was at his club, Luke’s place and Laura, she was there. And Luke is clearly in love with Laura and telling her how much he wants her. And then all of a sudden it clearly becomes a rape scene. And I don’t know if I even knew the word, rape, then. But I knew it was [00:25:00] violent. And it was really an unsettling scene, because they weren’t shying away from how violent it was.
He’s, like, pushing her down on the ground. She’s saying no. And the next scene, as I remember it, she’s walking around outside and she’s dazed. And she’s clearly been through a violent act. And yet, was it violent? Because the messed up thing is it’s also portrayed as romantic. Like, he wants her so much, he can’t stop himself. And he doesn’t stop himself. And he keeps going. That scene definitely led me to think that it had something to do with desire. It was a bad thing and it hurt her and that was clear. But it hurt her because he loved her so much, he couldn’t help but hurt her.
There’s also this sub-scene that she kind of pities him. [00:26:00] Because poor guy, you know, he can’t help it. And I think now seen in the cold light of day and a bunch of decades more experienced, like, that’s a very classic way that women are taught to think about bad men or violent men. That they can’t help it and are you really going to hold them accountable for their actions? Poor guys. They’ve suffered enough. But I didn’t see any of that at the time. I just sort of witnessed that they continued to fall in love. And that it was, like, heller romantic.
Susie Banikarim: Were you rooting for them?
Cindy Leive: I was totally rooting for them. I mean, not them that day of the rape, but as time went on and- and everybody was rooting for them. And, you know, it culminated in this wedding, which I was probably too young to really care about, but man, that wedding was a really big deal.
Susie Banikarim: Do you remember talking to your friends about it? Talking of- to them about the rape?
Cindy Leive: N- I don’t remember talking to any friends about it at the time. [00:27:00] But a couple of years after that scene aired on General Hospital, and it was still kind of the only reference point I had for rape, I was walking home from school and I was on this sort of, like, backwoods road and this guy pulled up next to me in a TransAm. I was probably 13 at the time and he had his pants down around his knees and, you know, was flashing me. Said something to me. I screamed, ran away, ran home, called my friend, and I said, “You’re not going to believe what just happened to me on the way home from school.” I was, like, shaking. I’m sure my voice was trembling. And she said, “Did you get raped?” And it was, like, we didn’t know enough to know how awful that would have been. Like, to her it was this dangerous, alarming, but still kind of hot thing that could have happened.
Susie Banikarim: Looking back on it now, how do you think about it?
Cindy Leive: [00:28:00] My friends and I talk about this all the time. Like, my friends who I grew up with. Like, can you believe that Luke raped Laura? Nope, still can’t believe that Luke raped Laura and that that’s what led to this relationship. And particularly over time, like, I stopped watching soap operas probably when I was in high school, but when I look back on it, it’s such a fundamental messing with how a whole generation of girls who weren’t really getting any kind of education around consent. All the things we talk about now with varying degrees of success, we weren’t talking about at all then. And it’s such a devastating message about what a guy will do if he loves you enough. Like, he’s going to hurt you. And, you know, you should forgive him for that because, poor guy.
Susie Banikarim: This storyline between Luke and Laura was obviously a [00:29:00] very serious subject matter, but one of the things that occurred to me when we started to work on this episode, is that now we’re sort of looking back on it and talking about it in a serious way, but the reason soap operas were often dismissed, is that they did have, and I just want to make sure we don’t lose sight of this, but man, have absolutely wild storylines, like demonic possession-
Jessica Bennett: Okay.
Susie Banikarim: … and, you know, clones, like, you would get in an accident. Someone would clone you. You’d have a baby, it would turn out to be the devil. There was, like, a storyline on One Life to Live where they time traveled. I mean, there were these just, like, insane storylines. And Luke and Laura weren’t an exception. They would go on these Raiders of the Ark type adventures. But then there is this period in the late 80s and 90s where it becomes quite fantastical.
Jessica Bennett: Okay.
Susie Banikarim: That is partially why soap operas get this rap as a silly, sort of cheesy thing.
Jessica Bennett: Right.
Susie Banikarim: But at the same time, there were a lot of social issues are introduced.
Jessica Bennett: [00:30:00] Mm-hmm.
Susie Banikarim: Partially because women are not being hired to make prestige television. They’re not being hired on prime time shows. They are making these soap operas. They are hiring other women to be the writers. And so a lot of topics that those women are interested in gets discussed here.
Jessica Bennett: Oh, that’s really interesting. So this is the place that a woman show runner or a woman writer could actually thrive.
Susie Banikarim: And yeah, thrive and actually explore real issues that women were facing. Domestic violence, addiction. So you sort of have this idea, oh, it would have been handled more sensitively, but I think this just reflects how people genuinely think about rape.
Jessica Bennett: Right. And that’s- yeah, that’s interesting too. It’s, like, actually maybe this is more accurate to what we really did think of it at the time.
Susie Banikarim: Well, and also, maybe this was a sensitive handling for the time.
Jessica Bennett: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Susie Banikarim: Like, maybe the way this would have been handled in previous iterations is she wouldn’t have been believed or-
Jessica Bennett: Yeah.
Susie Banikarim: … she would have been dismissed. Like, there is an attempt made here to handle this with sensitivity. They have [00:31:00] Genie Francis and Tony Geary, the actors, meet with a social worker before they taped the scene. I mean, there is an acknowledgement-
Jessica Bennett: Prior to.
Susie Banikarim: … that this is a difficult-
Jessica Bennett: Yeah.
Susie Banikarim: … subject to tackle.
Jessica Bennett: Yeah.
Susie Banikarim: It’s just interesting that even their version of sensitivity-
Jessica Bennett: Mm-hmm.
Susie Banikarim: … is so baked in to the era that it represents-
Jessica Bennett: Yep.
Susie Banikarim: … that it still reveals these really outdated notions about rape.
Danielle Thompson: I can give you my perspective here.
Susie Banikarim: So, we did end up calling your friend, Danielle Thompson, who you mentioned at the top of the show.
Jessica Bennett: Oh, good. I’m so glad.
Danielle Thompson: The history of soaps is so vast and expansive that it’s like saying, let me tell you the history of the world in, like, five minutes.
Jessica Bennett: For those listening. This is Danielle Thompson. She’s a longtime television writer and- and researcher and the person that I basically go to whenever I have a really intricate question about TV of the past. So what did she say?
Susie Banikarim: Well, first she said that it wasn’t her thesis that she wrote about soaps and sexual assault. So you lied.
Jessica Bennett: Oh, whoops.
Susie Banikarim: But it [00:32:00] was a very long college essay, so you weren’t that far off.
Jessica Bennett: I mean, close enough.
Susie Banikarim: But besides being able to share what she learned about this very specific topic, she just has this crazy extensive knowledge about the topic and she was such a huge soap fan, so she really delivers.
Danielle Thompson: I think that you have to remember that soaps don’t just have love in the afternoon. In fact, that’s actually why I stopped watching soaps, because there is not enough romance. It’s kind of know for dealing with serious issues always. And sometimes they get it right and sometimes they don’t. But, like, in 1973, the first legal abortion on television showed on All My Children. The first gay teenager on TV, that was Billy Douglas, played by Ryan Phillippe on One Life to Live, 1992. You have the first gay marriage in 2009 in All My Children. The first transgender coming out storyline in 2006.
Soap operas are actually the place where serious issues are addressed. And so, just to, like, put Luke and Laura’s scene in context of the time. The [00:33:00] phrase, date rape, was not even coined until 1975 by Susan Brown Miller in her book, Against Her Will. And so for further context, it was 1982 when Ms. Magazine ran what was, like, a groundbreaking study about the subject of date rape, which was still not really known as a concept, because most people at the time thought of rape as being something that was committed by a stranger, not someone that was known.
So I think in that context, Luke and Laura is kind of radical because it’s bringing up an issue that was something people had not really understood or known that is of extreme relevance to its viewers, which are primarily women. And I think what’s interesting about Luke and Laura is that the character was never intended to be a romantic companion for her. This is definitely not the first act of sexual violence in soaps, but it is from my understanding, the first relationship where the relationship followed the act of sexual violence instead of preceded it. But I don’t necessarily think that it kind of sparked off [00:34:00] this new trope of sexual assaults in soap operas. I think if anything, it kind of broadened the conversation in a way that changed it and because awareness grew, I think that storylines about it became more pervasive.
Jessica Bennett: So one question I have is, all right, so multiple decades have past. It was actually just a couple of years ago that it was the 40th anniversary of the wedding and so there was all this sort of quote, unquote, in retrospect coverage of it and Genie Francis spoke about it. So, are those who were involved in the show at the time expressing different perspectives on it when they look back today?
Susie Banikarim: Yeah, 100%. I think they’re expressing different perspectives and also admitting that they had different perspectives even at the time.
Jessica Bennett: Okay.
Susie Banikarim: It’s also worth noting that the show itself has acknowledged and revisited the assault a few times since it originally aired. Obviously, you know, we think about these things differently now and the show is aware of that. And so there have [00:35:00] been a few times in the show’s history where they tried to confront that. And there was this scene between Luke and Laura at some point where they discuss what happened and she confronts him many years later and he apologizes.
CLIP Laura: We should talk about what happened that night then. That one bad night 20 years ago.
Susie Banikarim: Eventually Luke and Laura are going to have kids, so, you know, as the show is evolving there’s also a confrontation between Luke and his son with Laura. Strangely their kid is named, Lucky, and he confronts Luke about assaulting his mother.
CLIP Luke: You’re not going anywhere until we have this out.
CLIP Lucky: What are you going to do, Dad? Why, if I walked out the door, what would you do? Force me to stay, why, because you’re stronger than me?
CLIP Luke: What do you know?
Susie Banikarim: And Luke, of course, apologizes again here because it’s always part of a redemption arc they’re trying to give him.
CLIP Luke: You were conceived, born and raised in love. Nothing but love.
Susie Banikarim: But, what’s also [00:36:00] happened, is that I think there was a lot of questions about this rape when the wedding occurred. It’s not like journalists who were covering the wedding at the time didn’t ask about it.
Jessica Bennett: Mm-hmm.
Susie Banikarim: And the onus was really put, especially on Genie Francis, who was quite young. She would sort of explain this thing.
Jessica Bennett: Mm-hmm.
Susie Banikarim: She was often asked about it and she felt like she had to defend it and I think Tony Geary also felt that way and neither of them seem like they really appreciated being put in that position, to be honest.
Jessica Bennett: Right, right.
Susie Banikarim: They both left the show not long after the wedding and then returned.
Jessica Bennett: Oh, for those later storylines. Okay.
Susie Banikarim: For those later storylines. I mean, not just for those later storylines, but then they just returned to the show in the 90s. And she’s gotten to the point where she o- very openly now, even though she’s still on the show today, rejects having been put in this position. And has said, and I- I’ll read a quote from her. “As a young kid at 17, I was told to play rape and I played it. I didn’t even know what it was. But at 17 you follow the rules. You do as you are told and you aim to please. And now at 60 I don’t feel the need to defend that anymore. I [00:37:00] think that story was inappropriate. I don’t condone it. It’s been the burden that I’ve had to carry to try to justify that story. So I’m not doing that anymore.”
Jessica Bennett: That’s interesting. And, you know, to think about how these things play out differently. Today it was interesting you mentioned that at the time-
Susie Banikarim: Yeah.
Jessica Bennett: … the actors playing Luke and Laura actually saw a social worker to talk about the playing of this. But now you would have an intimacy coordinator on set.
Susie Banikarim: Yeah. It would be a totally different ballgame. Or you’d hope that it would be a totally different ballgame. I think, look, Genie Francis is in her sixties now, right. She’s had 40 years to reflect on this thing that happened to her, but she was a 17-year-old girl playing with a 30-something year old actor.
Jessica Bennett: Right, right.
Susie Banikarim: Right? I mean, just the whole thing would be handled so differently now, because in addition to the rape, there would be the statutory issues. There just is, I think, a better understanding of how power dynamics work. Like, it wasn’t even really brought up at the time that he was her boss.
Jessica Bennett: It’s also, like, were the scene to play out today, there would be a concurrent dialogue happening on Twitter and elsewhere about how it was handled. [00:38:00] Immediately, in real time. And so you would be having to preemptively prepare for the criticism that you knew you were going to face and really make sure it was handled delicately.
Susie Banikarim: Yeah. I mean, an interesting thing is, is did you The Accused when it came out?
Jessica Bennett: Yes.
Susie Banikarim: That was sort of, like, one of the first depictions I ever saw of gang rape and now the dialogue around that movie has actually even shifted.
Jessica Bennett: Mm-hmm.
Susie Banikarim: Like, I think it’s kind of fascinating because I’ve seen dialogue about how it’s too violent. It’s presenting-
Jessica Bennett: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Susie Banikarim: … and too drawing away. It’s not, it’s, like, triggering. And I think that’s really interesting because the reason that movie was so groundbreaking when it happened is because it was presented in so violent a way. It sort of forced you to face the reality of that violence.
Jessica Bennett: Yeah, yeah.
Susie Banikarim: But now if you played it so violently, they would say it was exploitative, right? Like, if you did that scene now, you would want to handle it with more sensitivity because we get that rape is violent. We don’t need to, like, shove it in your face that same way. But that cultural context is important. When that movie happened, people didn’t really understand how violent rape could be, so it had [00:39:00] to be so aggressive.
Jessica Bennett: I think now too, storylines are forced to grapple with the enduring trauma of something like that happening.
Susie Banikarim: Right.
Jessica Bennett: And- and that that has to be written in.
Susie Banikarim: Yeah. And I think, let’s be honest, we’ve all or most of us have watched many years of Law & Order SVU.
Jessica Bennett: Mm-hmm.
Susie Banikarim: And that has in many ways changed the way that rape is handled on other shows. That’s an interesting example of a show that not only has kind of moved the needle in terms of how a lot of us understand sexual assault, but has actually changed the way other shows handle it because it has really introduced a lot of ideas into the culture that are now very commonly acknowledged as facts. And those things continue to evolve.
Jessica Bennett: Okay. So, I feel like we need to take a moment to just pause and re-acknowledge what we’re talking about. This show is about how we internalize these messages.
Susie Banikarim: Right.
Jessica Bennett: So look, like, 1981 I was not born when this hit. Like, [00:40:00] this was a little bit before our time, but when you think about the time when we were sexually coming of age, like, how the strands of this might have still impacted us in the way that we saw ourselves. And the culture, like, yes, was it okay for guys to be really aggressive when they wanted to pursue you?
Susie Banikarim: I mean, I definitely-
Jessica Bennett: Yes.
Susie Banikarim: … thought that the answer to that was yes. I think I put up with a lot of things that now I see in my niece, like, that she would never put up with. You know, we just accepted a certain level of behavior that-
Jessica Bennett: We wouldn’t now.
Susie Banikarim: No. And now it’s understood that this is completely unacceptable.
Jessica Bennett: Mm-hmm.
Susie Banikarim: But, you know, at that time, I think people just really didn’t understand what the boundaries were. Like, this reminds me of this crazy jarring anecdote that I read, which has really stayed with me. It’s that Tony Geary, the actor who plays Luke, told the story that when he would go to, like, soap opera conventions and events, [00:41:00] after the scene aired, women would come up to him and say, “Rape me, Luke.”
Jessica Bennett: Oh my God.
Susie Banikarim: Yeah, and that’s like a thing that he would tell because he was so disturbed by it.
Jessica Bennett: But I think it says so much about what we’ve been talking about here, which is that there’s this underlying sense that a woman should, like, want to be found irresistible.
Susie Banikarim: Right. And it just introduces this idea that men express love or this, like, need through violence and then if you experience it as violence and not love, the problem is with you and not the thing that’s happened to you.
Jessica Bennett: Mm-hmm. Right. I’d be really interested to hear from Cindy as someone who actually lived through this.
Cindy Leive: I think I learned that as a woman it’s incredibly flattering and important to be desired by a man and that even if that quote, unquote, desire is violent and hurts you or hurts other people, that, like, on some level that’s okay. I feel like in a way I’m a best case [00:42:00] scenario. I had a very feminist mom who did not truck with those kinds of stereotypes at all. I’m lucky that in those years after watching that on General Hospital I didn’t have any kind of rape experience myself, which is unusual, I think, for women.
But still on some level I think it just underlined this very present message in our culture that you’re kind of nobody unless a guy has overwhelming desire for you. I mean, when you think about it, General Hospital taught a whole generation of women like me, girls at the time, what relationships were. What family secrets were about, what infidelity was. And also what sexual violence is. And I don’t think it taught us accurately.
Susie Banikarim: This is In Retrospect. Thanks for listening. Is there a cultural moment you can’t stop [00:43:00] thinking about and want us to explore in a future episode? Email us at [email protected] or find us on Instagram @inretropod.
Jessica Bennett: If you love this podcast, please rate and review us on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you hate it, you can post nasty comments on our Instagram which we may or may not delete.
Susie Banikarim: You can also find us on Instagram @jessicabennett and @susiebnyc. Also check out Jessica’s books, Feminist Fight Club and This is 18.
Jessica Bennett: In Retrospect is a production of iHeart podcast and The Meteor. Lauren Hansen is our supervising producer. Derrick Clements is our engineer and sound designer. Sharon Attia is our researcher and associate producer.
Susie Banikarim: Our executive producer from The Meteor is Cindy Leive. Our executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stumpf and Katrina Norvell. Our artwork is from Pentagram. Additional editing help from Mary Do and Mike Coscarelli. Sound correction and mastering by Amanda Rose Smith. We are your hosts, Susie Banikarim.
Jessica Bennett: And Jessica Bennett. [00:44:00] We’re also executive producers. For even more, check out inretropod.com. See you next week.
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